The verdict - Calciopoli charges announced (7 Viewers)

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
aressandro 10,

From an economist's perspective, the critical issue of whole Calciopoli scandal is not so much about punishing the guilty party (though I do think it is significant part) but ensuring that such things do not happen again in the future.

The point is that the board's control (need I mention about the fans?) on the management team is limited whether it is FC, Sony, GE, or any other corp. you can think of. I mean do you seriously believe that buying Baiocco for 5m sterling pounds was in the interest of the club?

Of course not! While you are quick to mention the good business side of Moggi (I agree that he has a great eye for talent) but you are creating bias by selecting certain good business that he has done.
Lets talk about certain things which he didnt do.
With all the speculations that Juve was going to buy Nesta to strenghten its aging defence, why didnt he do it? Oh, there was a little fact that Nesta's agent happens to be Moggi's son. OK, I admit there is nothing concrete about this, but there sure are some materials to feel fishy about it.
And how about Kaka? Do you really believe the story that the transfer to Juve failed because Moggi didnt liked his name? Moggi isnt stupid and the name certainly wasnt the reason. If he did, well, he should have been fired immediately for an act of stupidity - which only comes to show how incomplete control board has on management. Oh did I mention the fact that, fans been craving some creative talent since 2001.

The point is whether Juve gets relegated to Serie B, C or even amateur league, the board will never have complete control of the management team. That is almost sure fact. So you must rely on the honesty of those running the team. Sure, with the punishment Juve will now try to employ more honest, hardworking men then before so to certain extent we do limit the occurrence of such scandal.
But why make such an inefficient penalty? If you penalize those who are directly running the club with heavy fines & jail sentences then this will be a cheap way of preventing the scandal & overcoming incomplete obersvability.
As a matter of fact, this is the very basic lesson of the whole Principal & Agent models - People should only be rewarded and penalized for what they are responsible & capable of doing. The simple fact, which I am astonished to realize, cannot be appreciated by many intelligent people.

I am fine with relegation if that is what we deserve. But don't we all think other parties (Milan, Fiorentina, Lazio, Management teams) should also bear their share of guilt? Oh did I mention Milan happens to be private company and hence Berlusconi should be more responsible than owners of publicly traded company Juve? Why should Moggi & Co spent next 5 years with the millions they creamed off from the club on Dubai or Bermuda drinking Don-Perry Gold?
What should Del Piero, Canna, Zambrotta feel having been forced to move and had nothing to do with the scandal & won the WC for the nation.
What rights does Rossi, Borelli, et al have to annouce the penalty, even without discussing the matter with the nation as a whole?
 

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Maresca

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2004
8,235
danielão said:
The problem is, no one wants to accept the fact that Juventus' cheated. Or they accept the fact they cheated, but no one wants to believe Juve did anything worse than other teams.
for me, Moggi cheated.. I saw the team, I saw DP, Cannavaro, Zambrotta etc fighting for each meter on the pitch.. I saw them strugelling and enjoying when they score.. if you ask me, these 2 scudetos are ours.. and for me they will stay ours..forever..
 

Stu

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2002
17,557
Turk_Bianconero said:
I don't cheat and I don't deserve punishment
moggi did cheat then moggi deserve punisment
The CLUB cheated, not just Moggi so the CLUB deserves punishment and will get it.
 

giovanotti

ONE MAN ARMY
Aug 13, 2004
13,725
Maresca said:
for me, Moggi cheated.. I saw the team, I saw DP, Cannavaro, Zambrotta etc fighting for each meter on the pitch.. I saw them strugelling and enjoying when they score.. if you ask me, these 2 scudetos are ours.. and for me they will stay ours..forever..
I totally agree with you,Alan.
 

JuvenYang

Junior Member
Jul 26, 2002
84
aressandro10 said:
again with the denial legal gimmicks....

we are not the judges. we have the liberty to make our judgement base on our concience. not only cold hard facts. Its either we do or we do not. my concience tell me that the moggi tape is only the tip of the iceberg. and i already make my peace with that. why dont u?
The iceberg example is just one of the speculations. As both you and me are not insiders, the best conscience for us is to respect the FACTS, and only the facts matter. Of course Moggi did something wrong, but is that enough for match-fixing and consequently a relegation? I really doubt about it.
 

Stu

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2002
17,557
Turk_Bianconero said:
you are talking like a rival teams fan
why?

what kind a supporter want his club's relegate?
Who said I want my club to be relegated? Of course I don't, and I'm not talking like the supporter of a rival team but as a Juve fan who has accepted the situation and the fate of the club. Juventus FC WILL be relegated, whether you can deal with it or not remains to be seen but what me and you say or believe doesn't mean shit. Moggi is part of the club and his wrong doings benefited the club. We may well have won those Scudetti without his help but the point is we had his help, the help he gave us was illegal, and we're going to be punished for it. Stop living in denial because you're going to have to get used to a year or two in Serie B. I'm ready for it, are you?
 

ZAF3000

Senior Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,348
From what I know.
The lowest three clubs in the serie A get relegated and top three clubs in serie B gets promoted. Then the 4th from the bottom in serie A plays the 4th from the top in serie B and the winner goes/stays in serie A.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
Stuart said:
The CLUB cheated, not just Moggi so the CLUB deserves punishment and will get it.
Stuart,

I normally agree with on you footballing matters but not this one.
You are insisting on a procedural justice but by doing so you are also ignoring the consequences of the verdict.

By relegating Juve, the whole Italian football (except those in Serie B) will loose vast amount of revenue. I would rather think other teams would rather want Juve to stay in Serie A and share their revenues than see millions dissapear into dust.
And lets not forget most of its stars now will probably be leaving the penninsula which means that Serie A will not have its past significance of being a place where stars prove their worth thus making it for other teams left to attract foreign talents.

Personally, I reckon rebuilding the league is not as easy task as some people make it out to be because they do recognize the intense competition between the domestic leagues. French, I believe, will be force to reckon with in short-time with their mega-tv deal with Cannal. Lyon has now more or less have become a buying team & retaining their star players.
Its also matter of time Germany gets their mega-media deal with the dedicated fan base they have.
Italia with small population & loss of star players will find it though to compete with other nations - Personally I think they are going to loose it, especially, with dire performances by the teams competiting in CL this year.
By sharing the media revenue with other teams in Serie A,B and public in large, I think the potential money could be used for much better better cause and justice.

Appropriate penalty in my mind is a jail setence for Moggi & Co (with due respect, fraud is crimical offence that deserve jail, anything less is well, quite shocking) 30% of revenue sharing for Juve, Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina with other Serie A & B teams, and 20% donation to Italian Public or non-profit organizations in general. Not only such setences will make Italian Calcio more competitive and hence more exciting but the money could be used for greater public benefit worldwide. And yes, those responsible for the whose facade gets their share of crime.
 

ZAF3000

Senior Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,348
So basically Juventus have to atleast finish 4th in Serie B..
From last seasons results, Juve should atleast aim at 76 points from 42 matches after the deduction. So if Juve get 20 pts deduction then they have to win atleast 30 matches + many draws to acheive 96 (points which is 76 after deduction) to secure 3rd or 4th place position.
I do not think its impossible, but we will have to not sell many key players.
Players like, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Del Piero, Camoranesi, Buffon/Abiatti should stay...
I beleive with a formation close to this we can do very very well in Serie B if we got relegated (I still have hope that we wont... please god).

--------------- Buffon/Abiatti
Zambrotta -- Cannavaro -- deffender -- Balzaretti
Camoranesi --- Giannichedda -- Zanetti
--------------------- Offensive midfielder
---- Palladino -------- Del Piero
 

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