The Ultras (2 Viewers)

enzo

Senior Member
Contributor
May 14, 2012
2,949
Antifa are many things but fascists they are not. They're driven by anarchist and communist ideologies among others. Use of violence doesn't make one a fascist, it simply makes them violent.
You are not right. I was referring to antifascism as a political opinion, I believe @Hustini was referring to Antifa (groups) that promote violence to achieve their goals. Probably what people here would call the 'black block'.
 

Hustini

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
86,323
Antifa are many things but fascists they are not. They're driven by anarchist and communist ideologies among others. Use of violence doesn't make one a fascist, it simply makes them violent.
Violence was one of the tools fascists used, that's where I drew the connection initially.

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You are not right. I was referring to antifascism as a political opinion, I believe @Hustini was referring to Antifa (groups) that promote violence to achieve their goals. Probably what people here would call the 'black block'.
:tup:
 

il brutto

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2015
8,483
Violence was one of the tools fascists used, that's where I drew the connection initially.

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:tup:
Sadly many groups use violence to further their cause and ideologies. I just think it's a lazy comparison using only one element when there are many more components to fascism like authoritarianism and strong nationalism. Would you say Black Panthers for example were fascist too?
 

Hustini

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
86,323
Sadly many groups use violence to further their cause and ideologies. I just think it's a lazy comparison using only one element when there are many more components to fascism like authoritarianism and strong nationalism. Would you say Black Panthers for example were fascist too?
I wouldn't say its lazy. Fasicm used forcible suppression of opposition and differing opinions, no? Same can be said, as I've stated, by Antifa. Violence aside, Antifa screams at anything that doesn't fit their narrative by throwing around heavy identifies at people who oppose them, also a common trait of fascism, right? It's not just violence, but its also the suppression of opinions. Think when the Ultras chanted against the normal fans...they weren't happy they normal fans weren't in lockstep with the Ultra's views. So, to me its ironic in Antifa's case to be "anti-fascist" when all they do is seem to support some of those tendencies they claim they are against.

Antifa screams hypocrisy. Ultras do too when they bitch about high tickets costs but commit crimes for monetary benefit. (i.e. corruption, weapons sales, extortion, etc).

I will say the Ultras resemble the mafia more than anything, they are well organized. Antifa probably only uses facebook to organize their little nerd protests. I'd also agree that Antifa are definitely much closer to anarchists than anything else.

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Antifa is also against liberal democracy. Am I wrong in saying fascism preferred dictators/authoritarian figures in charge? Possible to draw parallels there why or why not?
 
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Kopanja

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
4,133
@Hustini
I'd say that fascism is just being used too loosely nowadays. I'm not defending antifa, couldn't care less about them, it's a first world problem, we don't have it here. They just don't have much to do with fascism, no matter what definition you choose. Eco's definition of ur-fascism it's the most popular one I think, and antifa doesn't tick many of the boxes.

EDIT: found a link from Eco http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...ist-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
 

Hustini

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
86,323
@Hustini
I'd say that fascism is just being used too loosely nowadays. I'm not defending antifa, couldn't care less about them, it's a first world problem, we don't have it here. They just don't have much to do with fascism, no matter what definition you choose. Eco's definition of ur-fascism it's the most popular one I think, and antifa doesn't tick many of the boxes.

EDIT: found a link from Eco http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...ist-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
Interesting, link. Thank you I'm looking at it now.
 

Knowah

I would suck Marchisio
Jan 28, 2013
2,391
@Hustini
I'd say that fascism is just being used too loosely nowadays. I'm not defending antifa, couldn't care less about them, it's a first world problem, we don't have it here. They just don't have much to do with fascism, no matter what definition you choose. Eco's definition of ur-fascism it's the most popular one I think, and antifa doesn't tick many of the boxes.

EDIT: found a link from Eco http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...ist-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
Fascism is definitely a term thrown around loosely recently. It's a political buzzword.
 

Hustini

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
86,323
lol some of the comments below the article are claiming our SJWs here fit some of those boxes :grin:

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Fascism is definitely a term thrown around loosely recently. It's a political buzzword.
buzzword...that's the word I was looking for when I mentioned throwing around heavy identifiers. Couldn't think of the word...
 

Kopanja

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
4,133
Fascism is definitely a term thrown around loosely recently. It's a political buzzword.
Yeah, because everyone knows that it's bad, like bad by default, no discussion after that, but not that obvious like nazi. Russian propaganda called all Ukrainians fascists before invasion for several years. And here I am, defending a nobel faschism's name on a football forum.
 

X Æ A-12

Senior Member
Contributor
Sep 4, 2006
72,568
I wouldn't say its lazy. Fasicm used forcible suppression of opposition and differing opinions, no? Same can be said, as I've stated, by Antifa. Violence aside, Antifa screams at anything that doesn't fit their narrative by throwing around heavy identifies at people who oppose them, also a common trait of fascism, right? It's not just violence, but its also the suppression of opinions. Think when the Ultras chanted against the normal fans...they weren't happy they normal fans weren't in lockstep with the Ultra's views. So, to me its ironic in Antifa's case to be "anti-fascist" when all they do is seem to support some of those tendencies they claim they are against.

Antifa screams hypocrisy. Ultras do too when they bitch about high tickets costs but commit crimes for monetary benefit. (i.e. corruption, weapons sales, extortion, etc).

I will say the Ultras resemble the mafia more than anything, they are well organized. Antifa probably only uses facebook to organize their little nerd protests. I'd also agree that Antifa are definitely much closer to anarchists than anything else.

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Antifa is also against liberal democracy. Am I wrong in saying fascism preferred dictators/authoritarian figures in charge? Possible to draw parallels there why or why not?
good points but imo having an issue with facist ultras is hypocritical when youve got a Tactical Nazi for a coach
 

Hustini

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
86,323
ATTENTION TO EVERYONE ⚠️ FROM LAST SATURDAY #JUVENTUS HAS INSERTED THE STADIUM REGULATION THAT IT IS FORBIDDEN TO ENTER WITH SYMBOLS OF THE ULTRAS GROUPS SUBJECT TO DIFFIDENCE, (DRUGS, TRADITION, VIKING, NUCLEO, NAB); THEN...

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someone else can translate the rest of the FB post

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Looks like club is clamping down in anything ultra related or logos or paraphernalia etc
 
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