The truth about Beijing Olympics (1 Viewer)

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,317
#41
thanks mate! you tell the truth !
when some westerners teased the Chinese are brainwashed
nobody realizes that they may also be brainwashed by their famous professional media on the issues about China. What they know about China are mostly came from media. I am not saying that all Western media are making stories to destroy China's image, but from recent Tibet trouble, CNN/NBC really disappointed me


the right one is the original one, but CNN just cut part of it
and u guys can see the difference
Dude,

don't go there.
 

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Gill_juve

Senior Member
May 29, 2006
5,494
#42
thanks mate! you tell the truth !
when some westerners teased the Chinese are brainwashed
nobody realizes that they may also be brainwashed by their famous professional media on the issues about China. What they know about China are mostly came from media. I am not saying that all Western media are making stories to destroy China's image, but from recent Tibet trouble, CNN/NBC really disappointed me


the right one is the original one, but CNN just cut part of it
and u guys can see the difference
well... what about china banning tianemen square images on google? if you go walking one in london around oxford street or around that area, you see a lot of CHINESE people complaining and protesting over the treatment of the people. lets face it, china run a pretty harsh regime.
 
OP
fender06

fender06

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2006
1,334
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #43
    well... what about china banning tianemen square images on google? if you go walking one in london around oxford street or around that area, you see a lot of CHINESE people complaining and protesting over the treatment of the people. lets face it, china run a pretty harsh regime.
    yes, i agree that the Chinese gov is still far from good. They had hurt a lot of the Chinese in the past.

    those people u saw i think are belonged to a religious party called Falun Gong. I always see them complaining and protesting in Hong Kong. One funny memory was that when i was travelling in Taiwan, they asked me to quit the Chinese Communist Party. i signed my name as Eric Clapton and they told me so far over 100m people had exited the party. They tell part of the truth but most of what they said are exaggerated.
     

    Gobbaccio

    New Member
    Sep 1, 2007
    13
    #44
    well... what about china banning tianemen square images on google?
    What about Google bending over backwards to let them ban whatever they feel in the first place.
    Or EADS arming and training their anti-riot police.
    Or Talef selling them the very devices that allow them to censor all international media in Tibet.
    Or...

    More bad-faithed high groundism from the Moral West.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    84,749
    #46
    Honestly, as much as this thread might get a lot of people banned, this is a great topic of discussion.

    Thanks for bringing it up, fender06.

    Now we'll get to my biases... :p

    fender06: Good topic.

    And Western media too easily swallows the guys-on-white-horses vs. guys-on-black-horses crap when it comes to issues. It's always a lot more complicated than that. I am sure that some Tibetans want to be part of China, while others detest it.

    Sure, China is made up of 56 ethnicities. But racism exists in China as well, and I would argue it's still more institutionalized there than in places in the West -- where it still exists, but there's at least more acknowledgement of it. The whole "Yellow Emperor" campaign in China right now is pretty clear proof to me, IMO.

    But the argument "Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China" is diabolical and sinister. The only people who use language like that are the likes of Darth Vader, the Catholic Church during the Inquisitions, and the USSR in its worst days. I could not even say that about anything without feeling the urge to finish it with a diabolical "Ha ha ha!" evil laugh. And it sounds like the people who support this position have no self-awareness of that.

    To presume the indentured servitude of a people for all time to a common land or government rule, to deny the change of history and the will of people to change their destiny is called "oppression". We here in the U.S. particularly see it as bad, given that this thinking would have prevented some of pur species' greatest achievements in human liberty: the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Protestant Reformation, the de-colonization of Africa. You can't even use the argument that Tibet was a part of China before the U.S. was inhabited by Europeans, because that's the whole point: people, land, and time all change. It's inevitable. To presume they can't is to deny the existence of physics and nature.

    This goes back to my earlier beef: nobody, I don't care how many thousands of years you can draw your family history back, can lay permanent claim to any piece of land on this planet. It's a ridiculous, myopic, selfish notion. If the migration of people, or their desire for self-determination if not rebellion against alliances or regimes of disagreement, do not change that throughout history, geology surely will. Otherwise, where specifically in time do you draw the line?

    Let's not forget that the peaks of the Himalayas were once at the bottom of the Indian Ocean when you go far back enough. Were they a part of China then? I have evolutionary ancestors who slithered around at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, so I can claim China as my homeland and the current Chinese state as invaders to the land of my forefathers from millions of years ago. Ridiculous, right? So how does this ridiculous notion suddenly become not ridiculous by choosing a single, random point in time on a calendar?

    There just are no absolutes when it comes to people and land -- we are all renters.

    And Seven: appreciate your sentiments, but seriously. You're better than that to have to resort to childish name-calling to get your point across.

    And Rebel: As much as your points are correct, every issue in the world doesn't revolve around the U.S. By drawing every political discussion back to a comparison with the U.S., you are inadvertently just supporting the American ego-centric notion that all world affairs must be the U.S.'s business.
     
    Sep 14, 2003
    5,800
    #47
    My 'connection' with Tibet came with my interest with Tibetan Buddism. Through that, I became more interested with the culture and history of the area. I don't want to say too much on the subject to be honest, as I'll end up getting banned (I know it's a cop out!) I just detest those wankers who protest because it's fashionable and have NO idea what they're protesting at and fail to show any dissent toward their own corrupt governments.

     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #48
    Holdon, I was just going to post that picture :D

    Here is the New York Times on the history of Tibet:

    ===

    Don’t Know Much About Tibetan History

    FOR many Tibetans, the case for the historical independence of their land is unequivocal. They assert that Tibet has always been and by rights now ought to be an independent country. China’s assertions are equally unequivocal: Tibet became a part of China during Mongol rule and its status as a part of China has never changed. Both of these assertions are at odds with Tibet’s history.

    The Tibetan view holds that Tibet was never subject to foreign rule after it emerged in the mid-seventh century as a dynamic power holding sway over an Inner Asian empire. These Tibetans say the appearance of subjugation to the Mongol rulers of the Yuan Dynasty in the 13th and 14th centuries, and to the Manchu rulers of China’s Qing Dynasty from the 18th century until the 20th century, is due to a modern, largely Western misunderstanding of the personal relations among the Yuan and Qing emperors and the pre-eminent lamas of Tibet. In this view, the lamas simply served as spiritual mentors to the emperors, with no compromise of Tibet’s independent status.

    In China’s view, the Western misunderstandings are about the nature of China: Western critics don’t understand that China has a history of thousands of years as a unified multinational state; all of its nationalities are Chinese. The Mongols, who entered China as conquerers, are claimed as Chinese, and their subjugation of Tibet is claimed as a Chinese subjugation.

    Here are the facts. The claim that Tibet entertained only personal relations with China at the leadership level is easily rebutted. Administrative records and dynastic histories outline the governing structures of Mongol and Manchu rule. These make it clear that Tibet was subject to rules, laws and decisions made by the Yuan and Qing rulers. Tibet was not independent during these two periods. One of the Tibetan cabinet ministers summoned to Beijing at the end of the 18th century describes himself unambiguously in his memoirs as a subject of the Manchu emperor.

    But although Tibet did submit to the Mongol and Manchu Empires, neither attached Tibet to China. The same documentary record that shows Tibetan subjugation to the Mongols and Manchus also shows that China’s intervening Ming Dynasty (which ruled from 1368 to 1644) had no control over Tibet. This is problematic, given China’s insistence that Chinese sovereignty was exercised in an unbroken line from the 13th century onward.

    The idea that Tibet became part of China in the 13th century is a very recent construction. In the early part of the 20th century, Chinese writers generally dated the annexation of Tibet to the 18th century. They described Tibet’s status under the Qing with a term that designates a “feudal dependency,” not an integral part of a country. And that’s because Tibet was ruled as such, within the empires of the Mongols and the Manchus. When the Qing dynasty collapsed in 1911, Tibet became independent once more.

    From 1912 until the founding of the People’s Republic of China in 1949, no Chinese government exercised control over what is today China’s Tibet Autonomous Region. The Dalai Lama’s government alone ruled the land until 1951.

    Marxist China adopted the linguistic sleight of hand that asserts it has always been a unitary multinational country, not the hub of empires. There is now firm insistence that “Han,” actually one of several ethnonyms for “Chinese,” refers to only one of the Chinese nationalities. This was a conscious decision of those who constructed 20th-century Chinese identity. (It stands in contrast to the Russian decision to use a political term, “Soviet,” for the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.)

    There is something less to the arguments of both sides, but the argument on the Chinese side is weaker. Tibet was not “Chinese” until Mao Zedong’s armies marched in and made it so.

    Elliot Sperling is the director of the Tibetan Studies program at Indiana University’s department of Central Eurasia Studies.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/opinion/13sperling.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin
     

    Dhaliwich

    Junior Member
    Aug 24, 2003
    82
    #49
    Very interesting stuff. But as for today it is my understanding that should Tibet become a "free nation" tomorrow, it would not benefit the majority of people there. From what I have read and heard Tibet is (maybe not by choice) very dependent on China. It would very quickly become on of the poorest countries on earth, the only short term income I can see is tourism, or the financial aid of a western country, and who is going to provide that? Richard Gere?

    Here is another interesting piece from the same website Martin linked too. I think is relevant:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/opinion/13forney.html
    China’s Loyal Youth

    By MATTHEW FORNEY

    MANY sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates. As pleasant as this outlook may be, it’s naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government’s human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you’ll meet.

    As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government’s suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as “a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society.” She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated Native Americans.

    It’s a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. “Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet,” a Beijing human-rights lawyer named Teng Biao told me. Mr. Teng — a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets — feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, “believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China.”

    Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it’s important to examine the thinking of those in China. The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country’s accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

    The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China’s humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and ’70s as if it were ancient history. Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao’s tyranny was “30 percent wrong,” then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the “Dalai clique,” a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

    Then there’s life experience — or the lack of it — that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government’s viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard and that’s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life — the summer job — rarely exists for urban students in China.

    Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They’ll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cellphone, an iPod, holidays — no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as “world leaders in optimism.”

    As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn’t feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor — those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

    Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can’t imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn’t compute as a valid concern.

    Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As college graduates enter the work force and experience their country’s corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. It is received wisdom in China that people in their 40s are the most willing to challenge their government, and the Tibet crisis bears out that observation. Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

    Barring major changes in China’s education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time. If the debate over Tibet turns this summer’s contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, as seems inevitable, Western ticket-holders expecting to find Chinese angry at their government will instead find Chinese angry at them.
     
    OP
    fender06

    fender06

    Senior Member
    Sep 16, 2006
    1,334
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #51
    Very interesting stuff. But as for today it is my understanding that should Tibet become a "free nation" tomorrow, it would not benefit the majority of people there. From what I have read and heard Tibet is (maybe not by choice) very dependent on China. It would very quickly become on of the poorest countries on earth, the only short term income I can see is tourism, or the financial aid of a western country, and who is going to provide that? Richard Gere?

    Here is another interesting piece from the same website Martin linked too. I think is relevant:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/opinion/13forney.html
    China’s Loyal Youth

    By MATTHEW FORNEY

    MANY sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates. As pleasant as this outlook may be, it’s naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government’s human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you’ll meet.

    As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government’s suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as “a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society.” She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated Native Americans.

    It’s a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. “Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet,” a Beijing human-rights lawyer named Teng Biao told me. Mr. Teng — a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets — feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, “believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China.”

    Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it’s important to examine the thinking of those in China. The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country’s accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

    The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China’s humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and ’70s as if it were ancient history. Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao’s tyranny was “30 percent wrong,” then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the “Dalai clique,” a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

    Then there’s life experience — or the lack of it — that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government’s viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard and that’s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life — the summer job — rarely exists for urban students in China.

    Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They’ll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cellphone, an iPod, holidays — no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as “world leaders in optimism.”

    As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn’t feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor — those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

    Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can’t imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn’t compute as a valid concern.

    Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As college graduates enter the work force and experience their country’s corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. It is received wisdom in China that people in their 40s are the most willing to challenge their government, and the Tibet crisis bears out that observation. Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

    Barring major changes in China’s education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time. If the debate over Tibet turns this summer’s contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, as seems inevitable, Western ticket-holders expecting to find Chinese angry at their government will instead find Chinese angry at them.
    that's true. Young people in China don't know how bad the Chinese gov was in the past and they can rarely find any history books talking about those dirty history. But this only limited in the history of the Chinese Communist Party, other history either good or bad are freely to learn.

    I have to admit that I am from Hong Kong, the education system in HK is totally different from that in China. Because of this , i think i know more history about China that young people living in China nowadays.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    #52
    Dude, shut the fuck up. The Olympics should never have gone to China. The country is a travesty and it's only because it's so damn powerful no one is doing anything about it. And don't get me started on Tibet. Seriously, you indoctrinated fuck. What on earth are you blabbing about?
    I'm sorry, but I think that's the biggest bullshit I've ever watched
    Bollocks.

    There is no anti-China agenda and it really sounds like you have bought what the Regime wants you to believe.

    And it is only sad if folk boycott the Olympics if they do it without good reason.
    :lol2:

    I love you all, thank you so much for saying exactly what I wanted.
    i don't know why so many French and British ask to free Tibet, they don't know the history of Tibet and even where Tibet is.:weee: :weee: so funny

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twHzXN3kNTs&eurl=h
    I know both, and China still is filled with cock dong suckfaces.
    China is no worse than the US, no offense to the Americans here.
    Ummm, China has 13 of the world's 20 most polluted cities. I think that is worse for the world than anything the US has done in the past 5 years. NO OFFENSE TO THE ARABS HERE, THOUGH.

    You're selling bullshit and I'm not buying.

    The Chinese government is probably worse than what we think. The death sentence rates we are informed of are always accompanied by the words: "at the very least.".

    There is no agenda against China whatsoever. I will simply not accept that you're trying to pass off your indoctrinated mindset as true knowledge. Take a look at the Chinese government. It's not just Tibet, it's not some human rights. I'm not boycotting the Olympics, I just think China was always going to be a poor choice.

    PS: Millions of Chinese do face famine.
    Word!
    Seven, has no one ever taught you not to say anything if you don't have anything nice to say?
    shut up
    What the fuck is this? Are you serious? On an issue like this, you come up with this?

    If you were being sarcastic it was funny as hell though.
    :tup:
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    #55
    ßöмßäяðîëя;1611584 said:
    Ummm, China has 13 of the world's 20 most polluted cities. I think that is worse for the world than anything the US has done in the past 5 years. NO OFFENSE TO THE ARABS HERE, THOUGH.
    Hey between polluting the earth, and occupying another country and killing innocent people, i think me and you know which is worse.
     

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
    #56
    Hey between polluting the earth, and occupying another country and killing innocent people, i think me and you know which is worse.
    Exactly...

    I don't know who the owned one is, Burke...Your country is acting as if it is the shepherd of the world and all the countries of the world are the sheep.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    #57
    You can always count on Burke to bring the intelligence and intellectual level down. Still mourning over Andy are we?
    Awwwwwww, not really. I think the mod team is just a bunch of jokers anyway.
    Hey between polluting the earth, and occupying another country and killing innocent people, i think me and you know which is worse.
    Polluting the Earth is obviously worse since it causes problems for every person on the planet. Also, China is occupying another country and killing innocent people, that's the whole Tibet situation.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    84,749
    #59
    Exactly...

    I don't know who the owned one is, Burke...Your country is acting as if it is the shepherd of the world and all the countries of the world are the sheep.
    My point being, Rebel, that the more you do things like take a discussion about China and Tibet and turn it into a discussion about the US acting like all other countries are sheep, the more you keep reinforcing sheep behavior.

    If you've become so obsessed with the U.S. that you cannot hold a conversation about other international politics without bringing up the U.S., you're guilty of the very thing you criticize.

    If this was a U.S.-bashing thread, that's one thing. But this is about China, it's place in the world, and how the rest of the world perceives it. If it becomes a thread to just harp on U.S. policies, then we're not talking about China at all anymore.
     

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