The Moral Law. Ratonality of Faith (1 Viewer)

Jun 13, 2007
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In response to an argument Martin and I were having about the Moral Law.

Extracts from a book I have read recently.


To understand the Moral Law, it is useful to consider how it is invoked hundreds of ways each day without the invoker stopping to point out the foundation of his argument.

Disagreements are a natural part of our daily lives, some are mundane like a wife criticizing her husband for speaking rudely to her friend, while some arguments take on larger significance. For instance, some argue that the U.S has a moral obligation to spread democracy throughout the world, even if it reqires military force, whereas others say that the aggressive, unilateral use of military and economic foce threatens to squander moral authority.

Notice than in these examples, each party attempts to appeal to an unstated higher standard. This standard is the Moral Law, an it's existence in each of these cases seems unquestioned. What is being debated is whether one action or another is a closer approximation to the demands of that law. Those accused of having fallen short such as the husband usually respond with a variety of excuses why they should be let off the hook. Virtually never does the respondant say, " To hell with your concept of right behaviour."

Is this sense of morality an intristic quality of being human, or just a consequence of cultural traditions? Some have argued that cultures have such widely differing norms of behavior that any conclusion about a shared Moral Law is unfounded. C.S Lewis, an oxford scholar and a student of many cultures, calls this"a lie, a good resounding lie.

If a man will go into a library and spend a few days withthe encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, he will soon discover the massive unanimity of the practical reason in man. From the Babylonian Hymn to Samos, from the laws of Manu, The Book of the Dead, the Analects, the Stoics, the Platonists, from Australian aborgines and Redskins, he will collect the same trimphantly monotonous denunciations of opporession, murder, treachery, and falsehood; the same injunctions of kindness to the aged, the yound and the weak, of almsgiving and impartiality, and honesty."

Let me stop here to point out that the conclusion that the Modern Law exists is in serious conflict with the pos-modernist philosophy, which argues that there are no asolute rights and wrongs, and all ethical questions are relative. This view faces a logical Catch-22s. If there is no absolute truth, can postmodernism be itself true?Indeed, if there is no right and wrong, there is no need to argue for the discipline of ethics in the first place.

Others will object that the Moral Law is simply a consequence of evolutionary pressures. This objection arises from the new field of sociobiology, and attempts to provide explanations for altruistic behavior of its positive value in Darwinian selection.


Consider a major example of the force we feel from the Moral Law, the altruistic impulse, the voice of conscience calling us to help others even if nothing is received in return. Not all of the requirements of the Moral Law reduce to altruism, of course, for instance, the pang of conscience one feels after a minor distortion of the facts on a tax return can hardly be ascribed to sense of having damaged another identifiable human being.

On Altruism. Oskar Schindler placed his life in great danger by sheltering more than a thousand Jews from Nazi extermination during WW2, and ultimately dies penniless, we feel a great rush of admiration for such people.

Sociobiologists such E.O Wilson have attempted to explain this behavior in terms of some indirect reproductive benefits to th practitioner of altruism, but the arguments quickly get into trouble. One proposal is that repeated altruitic behavior of the individual is recognized as a positive attribute in mate selection, but this hypothesis is in direct conflicts with observations in nonhuman orimates that often reveal just the opposite- such as the practiceof infanticide by a newly dominant male monkey, in order to clear the way for his own future offspring.

Another argument is that there are indirectr reciprocal benefits from altruismthat have provided advantages to the practitioner over evolutionary time; but this explanation cannot account for human motivation to practice small acts of consciene that no one else knows about.

A third argument is the altruistic behavior by members of a group provides benefits to the whole group. Exampples are offered of ant colonies, where sterile workers toil incessantly to create an enviroment where their mothers can have more children. But this kind of "ant altruism" is readily explained in evolutionary terms by the fact that genes motivating the sterile worker ants are exactly the same ones that will be passed on by their mother to the siblingsthey are helping to create. That unusually direct DNA connection does not apply to more complex populations, whereevolutionists now agree almost universally that selction operates on the individual, not on the population.

The hardwired behavior of the worker ant is fundamentally differentr from the inner voice that causes me to feel compelled to jump into the river to try and save a drowning stranger, even if I'm not a good swimer and may myself drown in the effort.

Furthermore, for the evolutionary argument about group benefits of altruism to hold. I would seem to require an opposite rsponse, namely, hostility to individuals outside the group. Oskar Schindler's agape belies this kind of thinking. Shokingly, the Moral Law will ask me to save the drowning man even if he is an enemy.



If the Law of Human Nature cannot be explained as cultural artifact of evolutionary by product, then how can we account for its presence? To quote Lewis, "If thre was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe- no more than the architect of a housecould actually be a wall or staircase in that house. The only way we could expect it to show itself would be inseide oursleves as an influence or command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that is just what we do find inside ourseleves, surely this ought to arouse our suspicions?"
 

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,189
#2
Ow I see. This book lies. Well, that's an easy way to completely disregard valid arguments. If I were you I'd throw it away.
 
OP
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Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #3
    Read after the bold part again, I mistakingly missed posting the point of the extract. :D
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    #4
    To quote Lewis, "If thre was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe- no more than the architect of a housecould actually be a wall or staircase in that house. The only way we could expect it to show itself would be inseide oursleves as an influence or command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that is just what we do find inside ourseleves, surely this ought to arouse our suspicions?"
    This "influence or command" exists in the universe, yes? So how is it somehow not a fact inside the universe? This makes no sense.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    I think your argument holds up right until you say that god did it. You have not shown that this moral law must, or even can be, supernaturally implanted. To establish that you first have to show that it cannot be explained naturally. So you've presented possible explanations which don't seem to suffice, but that is not proof that it cannot still be natural. To do that you would need an argument to say that no other natural causes are possible.

    If I as a man cannot explain lightning in terms of natural causes it does not follow that it must be a supernaturally conceived event.
     
    OP
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    This "influence or command" exists in the universe, yes? So how is it somehow not a fact inside the universe? This makes no sense.
    Clearly, you failed to see the point here. The influence or command is not a fact that we see around us, it is inside of us. That's what it means.

    I think your argument holds up right until you say that god did it. You have not shown that this moral law must, or even can be, supernaturally implanted. To establish that you first have to show that it cannot be explained naturally. So you've presented possible explanations which don't seem to suffice, but that is not proof that it cannot still be natural. To do that you would need an argument to say that no other natural causes are possible.

    If I as a man cannot explain lightning in terms of natural causes it does not follow that it must be a supernaturally conceived event.

    Haven't I done just that?

    Since all our naturalistic explanations are not enough, a supernatural explanation seems to be the most plausible one. The problem here is that you are not willing to consider a supernatural explanation because it conflicts with your beliefs. It is pointless to discuss a subject when you have already made up your mind beforehand.

    No, it does actually. If there is absolutely no natural explanation of lightning after thousands of years of scientific discoveries, then lightning is considered a supernatural event in the sense that we could not prove it to be natural.

    If we cannot prove that a room is bright, this automatically suggests that the room is dark, untill further evidence suggests otherwise.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    Clearly, you failed to see the point here. The influence or command is not a fact that we see around us, it is inside of us. That's what it means.
    And since we find ourselves inside the universe, this "fact" is necessarily also inside the universe. Which contradicts your premise.


    Haven't I done just that?
    No you haven't. You have suggested some explanations and estimated that they are not sufficient. That is not the same as showing that no natural explanation can exist. Before you can posit a supernatural explanation you have to show that no natural explanation can exist.

    Since all our naturalistic explanations are not enough, a supernatural explanation seems to be the most plausible one. The problem here is that you are not willing to consider a supernatural explanation because it conflicts with your beliefs. It is pointless to discuss a subject when you have already made up your mind beforehand.
    No, it's much more serious than that. It conflicts with rationality. Something that is logically impossible, or even "merely" unknowable", is not an explanation of anything. To explain anything by saying that "god did it" is to say that "no explanation is possible". All "god did it" tells you is that some unknowable being did it in some unknowable way. That is not an explanation. To explain something means to describe it in intelligible terms.

    No, it does actually. If there is absolutely no natural explanation of lightning after thousands of years of scientific discoveries, then lightning is considered a supernatural event in the sense that we could not prove it to be natural.
    And yet there is a perfectly natural explanation for lighting. Just because a man 4000 years ago could not conceive of one does not mean there isn't one. Of course, we can sympathize with the man who could not find a natural explanation. But that doesn't mean he was right.
     
    OP
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    And since we find ourselves inside the universe, this "fact" is necessarily also inside the universe. Which contradicts your premise.


    No you haven't. You have suggested some explanations and estimated that they are not sufficient. That is not the same as showing that no natural explanation can exist. Before you can posit a supernatural explanation you have to show that no natural explanation can exist.



    No, it's much more serious than that. It conflicts with rationality. Something that is logically impossible, or even "merely" unknowable", is not an explanation of anything. To explain anything by saying that "god did it" is to say that "no explanation is possible". All "god did it" tells you is that some unknowable being did it in some unknowable way. That is not an explanation. To explain something means to describe it in intelligible terms.

    .
    Our conscience is intangible, we cannot see it, it is a sense that we possess. Do you not see the difference between an influence and a fact?

    Since postmodernist philosophy is clearly irrational, and evolutionary theories regarding the Moral Law do not explain why a man would have the urge of sacrificing his life to save his enemy's, it is not inconceivably irrational to suggest the play of divine intervention.

    Theism is not logically impossible. I thought we agreed that theism is rational, what happened?
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    #10
    Our conscience is intangible, we cannot see it, it is a sense that we possess. Do you not see the difference between an influence and a fact?
    If it is detectable then it exists in the natural world. Just like electricity. Morality is behavior in humans much like electricity is behavior in particles.

    Since postmodernist philosophy is clearly irrational
    I don't know what postmodernist philosophy is, so this goes over my head.

    evolutionary theories regarding the Moral Law do not explain why a man would have the urge of sacrificing his life to save his enemy's
    They do actually. You just refuse to accept those theories because they do not seem to explain everything down to the smallest detail. Yet there are hypotheses, yet to be tested, that could explain even that.

    god of the gaps yet again.

    Theism is not logically impossible. I thought we agreed that theism is rational, what happened?
    Who said we agreed on that?
     
    OP
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    If it is detectable then it exists in the natural world. Just like electricity. Morality is behavior in humans much like electricity is behavior in particles.
    We cannot scientifically detect morality, it is just something we know is there. It is not like radio waves, magnetic or electric fields, it is not a fact in the universe, it is a form of influence within us. It's tragic that you don't see the logic behind Lewis' statement.

    I don't know what postmodernist philosophy is, so this goes over my head.
    It is explained in my first post.

    They do actually. You just refuse to accept those theories because they do not seem to explain everything down to the smallest detail. Yet there are hypotheses, yet to be tested, that could explain even that.

    god of the gaps yet again.
    No, no god of the gaps here. The evolutionary theory suggests why certain norms of behavior are the way they are in society. After we have explored every single possible natural explanation for altruism, none seem to sufficient. And to be quite frank, it seems implausible that any future hypothesis will determine a naturalistic and consistent explanation for altruistic behavior.

    Who said we agreed on that?
    "Because so far as I can see we have established that "it's rational" to believe that god can exist, you cannot rule him out."

    Well, you did.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    We cannot scientifically detect morality, it is just something we know is there.
    This is the whole premise of your argument. Morality exists, we can observe it. You keep giving me examples that are supposed to prove that morality exists. So how can you then say it can't be detected? You are presenting evidence of detection. Psychological behavior is no more magical than any physical motion. It's largely unexplained, but it's not magical.

    You know what else is behavior? Eating food. I eat food because of a physiological need I have. Someone who doesn't understand me could say that my eating behavior is inexplicable. It's impossible to know why I eat. So the reason I eat food must be god told me to eat.

    It is not like radio waves, magnetic or electric fields, it is not a fact in the universe, it is a form of influence within us. It's tragic that you don't see the logic behind Lewis' statement.
    It doesn't matter that it's not the same as electricity. The fact remains that it's there, we observe it everyday. When people observed lightning 4000 years ago they could have said "but it's not like a rock or a lion". So what? It's there.

    It is explained in my first post.
    I agree that there is no absolute morality. Morality is a civilizational standard, different cultures have different morality. In Saudi Arabia, apparently, it's indecent to show your hair if you're a woman (helpful muslims keep trying to convince us that those women do this out of moral conviction, after all).

    To say that there exists a universal moral standard based on empirical evidence is just false. The evidence doesn't support that. The best you could say is that certain moral rules seem to apply universally, but even that is debatable.

    No, no god of the gaps here. The evolutionary theory suggests why certain norms of behavior are the way they are in society. After we have explored every single possible natural explanation for altruism, none seem to sufficient. And to be quite frank, it seems implausible that any future hypothesis will determine a naturalistic and consistent explanation for altruistic behavior.
    Exactly what people were saying 4000 years ago about the sun and the moon and the rain. So they invented a sun god, a moon god and a rain god.

    "Because so far as I can see we have established that "it's rational" to believe that god can exist, you cannot rule him out."

    Well, you did.
    Perhaps I changed my mind. I was reading a book this week that clarified a lot of things for me. I don't support that statement anymore.
     
    OP
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    This is the whole premise of your argument. Morality exists, we can observe it. You keep giving me examples that are supposed to prove that morality exists. So how can you then say it can't be detected? You are presenting evidence of detection. Psychological behavior is no more magical than any physical motion. It's largely unexplained, but it's not magical.

    You know what else is behavior? Eating food. I eat food because of a physiological need I have. Someone who doesn't understand me could say that my eating behavior is inexplicable. It's impossible to know why I eat. So the reason I eat food must be god told me to eat.



    It doesn't matter that it's not the same as electricity. The fact remains that it's there, we observe it everyday. When people observed lightning 4000 years ago they could have said "but it's not like a rock or a lion". So what? It's there.



    I agree that there is no absolute morality. Morality is a civilizational standard, different cultures have different morality. In Saudi Arabia, apparently, it's indecent to show your hair if you're a woman (helpful muslims keep trying to convince us that those women do this out of moral conviction, after all).

    To say that there exists a universal moral standard based on empirical evidence is just false. The evidence doesn't support that. The best you could say is that certain moral rules seem to apply universally, but even that is debatable.



    Exactly what people were saying 4000 years ago about the sun and the moon and the rain. So they invented a sun god, a moon god and a rain god.



    Perhaps I changed my mind. I was reading a book this week that clarified a lot of things for me. I don't support that statement anymore.
    Oh, so now you agree with the postmodernist philosophy, and you don't agree with a statement you said a bit less that 48 hourse ago?

    I'll give you a few more weeks, and even months to formulate a final opinion, you can read as many books as you want, preferably books that are against what you believe in. I would suggest "Mere Chriistianity" by C.S Lewis, and once you are done we can debate this again.

    I need to know where you stand, I simply can't argue against you when you aren't sure what you are arguing for. I like the fact that you are a man of science, and rationality, I respect that. I would suggest you act like one by presenting yourself with all the evidence possible for the existence of God before you finally form an opinion.
     

    Martin

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    Oh, so now you agree with the postmodernist philosophy, and you don't agree with a statement you said a bit less that 48 hourse ago?
    I'm saying that the morality that you observe in the real world, as enforced by governments and religious institutions, and that everyone gets shoved down their throat, is by no means universal.

    However, without this externally enforced morality, there remains an innate morality in human beings. And that is why, even if this forum had no rules at all, I would not tear people to pieces if I knew I could destroy them in debate.

    I need to know where you stand, I simply can't argue against you when you aren't sure what you are arguing for. I like the fact that you are a man of science, and rationality, I respect that. I would suggest you act like one by presenting yourself with all the evidence possible for the existence of God before you finally form an opinion.
    Well, there is no such thing as the final truth. I don't change my mind very often, but sometimes it's unavoidable, if the evidence leaves me no other choice.
     
    OP
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  • Thread Starter #16
    If you had carefully taken the time to read my first point, it is blatantly clear that there exists an absolute truth.
     

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