The Formula 1 thread - Season 2005 (4 Viewers)

Zlatan

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2003
23,049
++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



Ferrari is all about passion. Their choice of drivers reflect that. Montoya is just as arrogant and agressive as Schumacher was in his heyday, but the comparison doesnt end there. Yes, he is also inconsistent, but I dont know if he deserves to carry all the blame for that. There has been more than one occasion that his car has let him down, be it at Williams, his first season especially and a couple of races with McLaren this year.


Montoya never accepts responsibility for anything. He always tries to find someone else to blame for his misstakes, whether it's Monteiro or someone else. Frankly, he isnt nearly as fast as Kimi or maybe even Alonso, and I doubt he has the makings of a world champion. He's incosnistent, he whines, he makes silly misstakes and I strongly doubt he will ever drive for Ferrari.


++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

I think you're being biased in your views on Michael, because I think apart from the arrogance, agressiveness, he too had a certain reckless streak, and I strongly beg to differ as regards the Villeneuve incident, which was quite clearly Schumacher's mistake.

I'm not saying it wasnt his misstake, I'm just saying he wasnt reckless, becuae he did what he wanted to ;)



++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

I dont think Michael is the gentleman he is made out to be. And when you say he was very professional in testing, races and car setup to enabel Ferarri do better. I really dont see why he should be praised for that given that the team was built around him and his needs, with a teammate to play support.

I do think he is. He might not have been at the beggining of his career, but he has calmed down over the years and played down the arrogancve. rarely will you ever hear him say something bad about the other drivers, about his car, teammate etc. And not to mention he gave 10 million $ for the tsunami victims out of his own pocket.

As far as the team is concerned, I think you are, like so many people, maiking a fundamental oversight. The team isnt build around Michael, Michael build the team. Fact is that there is no driver in the world that would have ben able to do what he did. When he came to Ferrari they were nowhere, decades without a title, not competing for victories, finishing 4th, 5th in the team standings. He came to ferrari and started winning right away. He took an extremely uncompetitive and unreliable car and drove it to victories, took the season to the very end every year. He was a huge part of making Ferrari what it is today, and IMO no other driver could pull off something similar. He made Ferrai champions, and I seriously doubt that Ferrari would have anywhere near as much success in the last few years had, for example, Mika, or Coulthard or jacques been driving for them. Michael built the team, and he's been there for almost 10 years. It's only logical that he will be the first driver.



++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

Kimi could be more likened to Mika. And as regards Alonso; its still too early to predict the similarity of his style to any champion. I'll conclude by saying Juan Pablo may not have all of Michael's talent but he has his temperament, one that will make him champion someday. His overall set of skills may not be as refined as those of Schumacher's is at this point of time, but I can assure you, experience is all he needs to even out those rough edges, which played no small part in bringing Michael to the fore, before he joined Ferrari.
Kimi and Mika are similar, yes, but I still think Kimi is also similar to Michael. Kimi has that arrogance, that smugness in his look that Mika never had.

AS for Juan, I strongly doubt he will ever be champion. He doesnt have the midframe for it, and is not as fast as Kimi or Alonso, not to mention Michael. I'd put him together with Button in terms of speed. And TBH Juan has had plenty of experience. He joined Williams in 2001, this is already his 4th year in Formula 1. Schumacher already had 1 or 2 world titles by that time. How much experience does he need? He will never be nearly as good as Michael, and I simply dont and never will rate him highly. Nor his temperament.
 

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Tifoso

Sempre e solo Juve
Aug 12, 2005
5,162
Your post is brilliant, amico mio...except ;)


I think the "Michael built Ferrari" opinion is a bit overstated

1. He began winning in 1996, sure, but that wasn't "his car"

2. Brawn/Byrne didn't show up for, what?, 2 more years.

3. Todt, who absolutely adores Michael, was asked how much input Michael has in designing the car. His answer? (I'm paraphrasing): "Nothing. Michael has no input into that at all, apart from his testing reports".

Michael is the best F1 driver, ever. Period. Asking him to also be the best team principal ever, to boot, is asking a bit too much (see Prost, A).

I think Ferrari will be Michael/Massa in 2006 (obviously) and then Kimi/Massa (if Massa really shines) or Kimi/Rossi after that.

I'll take that :cool:
 

Zlatan

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2003
23,049
Testing reports can be invaluable. A driver that knows and understands how the car works and can accurately convey his opinions and impressions with the car can save weeks, if not months indevelopement compared to a driver that just knows how to drive without understanding the car.

Michael is unmached in F1 in that departement, I'm not sure what Todt considered imput, but testing and set up reports are quite important.
 

Tifoso

Sempre e solo Juve
Aug 12, 2005
5,162
++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
Testing reports can be invaluable. A driver that knows and understands how the car works and can accurately convey his opinions and impressions with the car can save weeks, if not months indevelopement compared to a driver that just knows how to drive without understanding the car.

Michael is unmached in F1 in that departement, I'm not sure what Todt considered imput, but testing and set up reports are quite important.
Again, agree completely. :)


Todt was referring to those who think Michael designs and builds the car himself, I think.
 

Zlatan

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2003
23,049
He's a race car driver, not God FFS :D ;)


Of course he doesnt design the car. I think this car was the first one in 6 or 7 years that wasnt designed by Byrne, maybe thats why it sucks so much.
 

Tifoso

Sempre e solo Juve
Aug 12, 2005
5,162
++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
He's a race car driver, not God FFS :D ;)


Of course he doesnt design the car. I think this car was the first one in 6 or 7 years that wasnt designed by Byrne, maybe thats why it sucks so much.
:LOL:
You'd be surprised how many Schumi fans would disagree with you:eek:


Costa designed it. I think it sucks because of the crap BS, though. :mad:
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
Montoya never accepts responsibility for anything. He always tries to find someone else to blame for his misstakes, whether it's Monteiro or someone else. Frankly, he isnt nearly as fast as Kimi or maybe even Alonso, and I doubt he has the makings of a world champion. He's incosnistent, he whines, he makes silly misstakes and I strongly doubt he will ever drive for Ferrari.
MS has had those days where he's been inconsistent and whined, they maybe behind him but he's had that attitude nonetheless, and I think we both know that. Yes, Montoya's aggression is wrongly channelised, but I think he could do wonders in a Ferrari. He isnt nearly as fast as Kimi or Alonso? You might want to check that statistic, because I've seen races where he's outshone both of them on the fastest stretches. My point is, if he's got a set up at Ferrari like MS has, he would have no option but to be as 'responsible' as MS currently is. As for him driving for Ferrari ever, would be a valid point. Thats something only time can tell. I've never said he would either, I've just said, according to me, he'd be well suited to them. Maybe moreso than he is to McLaren. In my opinion at least, with experience comes consistency, and I think over these four years if you look carefully, you'll realise JPM doesnt make decisions as harsh as we're used to seeing him make like in his early days. If he's given a chance at Ferrari, I'll say, I'd have no doubt he'll do a superb job.


++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
I'm not saying it wasnt his misstake, I'm just saying he wasnt reckless, becuae he did what he wanted to ;)
Taking another driver off the track, be it Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve is reckless. Especially when the sport is Formula 1, the last thing you can afford to be is reckless, whether you want to be or not, you cannot afford to be.

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
I do think he is. He might not have been at the beggining of his career, but he has calmed down over the years and played down the arrogancve. rarely will you ever hear him say something bad about the other drivers, about his car, teammate etc. And not to mention he gave 10 million $ for the tsunami victims out of his own pocket.
After spending nearly a decade at the top, you become the symbol of the sport you are part of. He knows he cannot take his image as lightly as he did earlier because he's got certain responsibilities that cannot be done away with. Trust me, if his situation would've been any different than what it is now, he would still be driving guys off the track and marrying his buddy's gfs. Of course, I dont care for his personal life, but somewhere it indicates who he is capable of being.

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
As far as the team is concerned, I think you are, like so many people, maiking a fundamental oversight. The team isnt build around Michael, Michael build the team. Fact is that there is no driver in the world that would have ben able to do what he did. When he came to Ferrari they were nowhere, decades without a title, not competing for victories, finishing 4th, 5th in the team standings. He came to ferrari and started winning right away. He took an extremely uncompetitive and unreliable car and drove it to victories, took the season to the very end every year. He was a huge part of making Ferrari what it is today, and IMO no other driver could pull off something similar. He made Ferrai champions, and I seriously doubt that Ferrari would have anywhere near as much success in the last few years had, for example, Mika, or Coulthard or jacques been driving for them. Michael built the team, and he's been there for almost 10 years. It's only logical that he will be the first driver.

Its one thing to say that Michael is extremely talented as a driver, which I whole heartedly agree, and have said that in his generation, only JV would be in the same league talent wise. But if you're trying to tell me he took the team to where they are today, I'll go to the extent of saying that he complemented the team really well because they were willing to build themselves on his capabilities, but it would be wrong to say that he built the team because that is simply not the case. No driver worth his salt will go to a team, even if it is Ferrari just to contribute to making it competitive, unless, he is given the kind of freedom MS has been given over the last 10 years. You may argue that he's the best and all that, but I think he's been treated like royalty as well. As for him being there 10 years, I think hindsight is a beautiful thing, because he has been their number 1 driver since the beginning and wasnt gifted that position after 10 years of winning races consistently. Again more than one occasion there as well, the victory came at the expense of his so called # 2.


++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
Kimi and Mika are similar, yes, but I still think Kimi is also similar to Michael. Kimi has that arrogance, that smugness in his look that Mika never had.

AS for Juan, I strongly doubt he will ever be champion. He doesnt have the midframe for it, and is not as fast as Kimi or Alonso, not to mention Michael. I'd put him together with Button in terms of speed. And TBH Juan has had plenty of experience. He joined Williams in 2001, this is already his 4th year in Formula 1. Schumacher already had 1 or 2 world titles by that time. How much experience does he need? He will never be nearly as good as Michael, and I simply dont and never will rate him highly. Nor his temperament.

Kimi is not arrogant. He's smug no doubt, but I think he just sorta looks like that, and doesnt necessarily act like that. He's ice cool, just like Mika used to be.

You're deviating from what is being said. I've never expressly stated that JPM will be as successful as MS. That's pretty improbable, but the experience like Ive said is contributing to him becoming a more thinking driver like MS is now, and knowing how to channelise his energies correctly instead of being more flambouyant and agressive on the track. He's in his 4th year as you correctly stated, and what is he, poised to overtake MS in the standings this year. You may say its a faster car and all that, but then again you've said MS can work wonders even with what he's got. So my point remains, JPM and age to a certain extent have caught up with MS, but if you look back to a couple of occasions on the track in JPM's earlier years, you'll see he's outdone MS on more than one occasion. Sure, it may not necessarily speak for his talent in comparison, but I think its the temperament that allowed him to hang with one of the best this sport has to offer.
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
++ [ originally posted by Tifoso Lou ] ++
I think Ferrari will be Michael/Massa in 2006 (obviously) and then Kimi/Massa (if Massa really shines) or Kimi/Rossi after that.

I'll take that :cool:


Kimi|Rossi will be an interesting team no doubt, amico mio. I'd be really interested to see what Rossi can do.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
Mclaren front row in qualifying, but can they finally fulfil their obvious potential and cruise to a 1-2 in the race? Fastest car, two of the best drivers, but you wouldn't bet on it!

Alonso starts in 5th but hopfully he'll have some sort of mechanical failure, he's about due one.
 
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JCK

JCK

Biased
JCK
May 11, 2004
123,475
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #372
    The driver's championship is going to Alonso unless some miracles happen, but McLaren will take constructors and it will be a 1-2 for them in Spa.
     

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
    exactly. If they do its all over. Would love to see Fisi get another podium as well, hopefully at the expense of Alonso, but we don't know how the "team" will play this one
     

    Desmond

    Senior Member
    Jul 12, 2002
    8,938
    ++ [ originally posted by Tom ] ++
    exactly. If they do its all over. Would love to see Fisi get another podium as well, hopefully at the expense of Alonso, but we don't know how the "team" will play this one
    I wouldn't mind Fisco or Villeneuve on the podium myself, but if Giancarlo gets a podium spot it'd mean McLaren falling further behind in the constructors' standings :frown:
     

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
    I'm more in wonder at the fact that, of the top two teams Renault & McLaren, only 1 out of 4 drivers hasn't had, on at least 4 occasions, some bad luck/mechanical failure etc. Its amazing really but thats the luck of it. It'll take a miracle now :down:
     

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