The Dreamers' religious discussion thread. (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sheik Yerbouti
- Start date
- Status
Are evil people evil in ALL areas of life? No. But basically I mean all people are selfish and self serving. Which isn't a bad thing btw, it's necessary to survive which is everyone's biggest goal in this life. To avoid death as much as possible.
But people are selfleshly evil. If you want a cookie so bad, and there's only one left, and you and a stranger want it, UNLESS you are a morally good person (hence either you believe in God or too afraid to challenge others) you will try to take it for yourself. Why? Because you care more about yourself than others.
That's just an example in many examples I could give. People go as far as KILLING to serve their best interests. Individually and as a unit (country). That's why the world is filled with so much hate and problems, because man is genetically evil.
Here's where religion comes in. You ARE naturally self serving. You desire worldly pleasures like sex. But the test is that you TRY to sacrifice this and sacrifice your own wants (that are sinful in religion) to prove to God that you believe in him, in order to win a place in paradise forever.
But people are selfleshly evil. If you want a cookie so bad, and there's only one left, and you and a stranger want it, UNLESS you are a morally good person (hence either you believe in God or too afraid to challenge others) you will try to take it for yourself. Why? Because you care more about yourself than others.
That's just an example in many examples I could give. People go as far as KILLING to serve their best interests. Individually and as a unit (country). That's why the world is filled with so much hate and problems, because man is genetically evil.
Here's where religion comes in. You ARE naturally self serving. You desire worldly pleasures like sex. But the test is that you TRY to sacrifice this and sacrifice your own wants (that are sinful in religion) to prove to God that you believe in him, in order to win a place in paradise forever.
OP
If I could get 3 meals a day, get to fulfil of my desires and get a roof to live under, then yes, I would gladly work for nothing. Helping others and just being good makes me happy. Sadly in this world, money is what will give me my meal, a chance to fulfil my desire and a roof to live under(unless my mom kicks me outta here). I have a job where I get paid lesser than what someone else in my position will earn. But I'm happy with the job I do have, and what I get is more than enough.
Yes, everyone is selfish. Very rarely will you find completely selfless people. It's all a matter of giving and taking. In my case, I give more than I take.
Also, selfishness is not wrong.
Yes, everyone is selfish. Very rarely will you find completely selfless people. It's all a matter of giving and taking. In my case, I give more than I take.
Also, selfishness is not wrong.
OP
Fine.
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2608053&postcount=44
I asked the questions, and you said it's already answered in your so called Holy Books.
PROVE IT!
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2608053&postcount=44
I asked the questions, and you said it's already answered in your so called Holy Books.
PROVE IT!
So basically you are saying that people are selfish. Selfish is not the same as evil. Evil means you enjoy making people suffer. That's a big difference.
Btw sex is a good thing for humans. The strong sex drive is what makes it very likely (and it has worked so far) that the species survives. If noone cared about sex there would be no humans.
Btw sex is a good thing for humans. The strong sex drive is what makes it very likely (and it has worked so far) that the species survives. If noone cared about sex there would be no humans.
I never said it's wrong. I said it's the basic means to survive. You sound like a good person. Again you treat people well because it makes YOU feel happy. You might believe in karma or whatever that when you be good, good things will happen to you...
You MUST have faith in a higher power or else you'd have no life philosophy. You'll just be here doing fuck all until your time is up.
Atheists believe that God doesn't exist.... still that's something they believe in.
No beliefs = no life. So since you have beliefs, might as well check if they are correct.
Btw, on your questions. I would answer... BUT: 1) it will take like forever to mention and you won't be convinced in the end. 2) different religions = different answers.
However, some things are basic which MOST people base (or claim they do) their moral system on.
You MUST have faith in a higher power or else you'd have no life philosophy. You'll just be here doing fuck all until your time is up.
Atheists believe that God doesn't exist.... still that's something they believe in.
No beliefs = no life. So since you have beliefs, might as well check if they are correct.
Btw, on your questions. I would answer... BUT: 1) it will take like forever to mention and you won't be convinced in the end. 2) different religions = different answers.
However, some things are basic which MOST people base (or claim they do) their moral system on.
Religions are good means for keeping people from wrongdoings. Fearing of a supernatural force is greater than that of any other kind of force such as laws or social rules. When you don't do something wrong to avoid the punishment the social rules or the laws would enforce on you, you will do it the moment you find a loophole. But when you are afraid of a supernatural force who can bring justice to you (if not in the earthly world, in the next then) you won't do it even when you can fool the laws in a way. This is all of course in theory though, as I see how people find religious loopholes and justifications too 
But I don't think the bolded part is entirely true. To say that people who get their morality from religion can never surpass the ultimate stage is wrong. At least in Islam, I'm sure it is mentioned that no matter what the rules say or what reward/punishment you are going to get, the most valuable thing is to avoid doing bad only because it is bad in nature and to do good only because it is good in nature.
So people behave only when they are intimidated of punishments?
But I don't think the bolded part is entirely true. To say that people who get their morality from religion can never surpass the ultimate stage is wrong. At least in Islam, I'm sure it is mentioned that no matter what the rules say or what reward/punishment you are going to get, the most valuable thing is to avoid doing bad only because it is bad in nature and to do good only because it is good in nature.
So people behave only when they are intimidated of punishments?
OK. Some people are evil. All are selfish. Still, all people WOULD act evil if they HAVE to. (To get what THEY desire)
Most people at one time or another want to commit crimes or sins. What stops some is either fear of God, or punishment from society, or in some cases both.
If there was no punishment from neither God nor society, everyone would do what he wants. If you can kill someone you fucking hate, and no one will judge you or punish you, why not? Because then someone else might do it to you.... see we NEED to have rules or morals. No one likes them, but they're here. I think then it would make sense that God created us to co-exist together SUCCESSFULLY without breaking any of his orders, and in the end you'll get paradise. If you fail to achieve this, then you deserve punishment.
EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE! Afterlife is basically judging how you did in this life.
And on sex. Sex is encouraged but ONLY after marriage. Most people are hypocrites. They loathe on this while they're young and horny, but when they have daughters/wives/moms they hate that fact. Some pretend they don't, but deep inside it bothers them all.
It's a two way route.
No not at all. Sex SHOULD be pleasurable, but only after marriage. Why should you go screwing other people's daughters/moms/wives just for pleasure and one night stands? Would you like it to happen to someone connected to you? No.
Most people at one time or another want to commit crimes or sins. What stops some is either fear of God, or punishment from society, or in some cases both.
If there was no punishment from neither God nor society, everyone would do what he wants. If you can kill someone you fucking hate, and no one will judge you or punish you, why not? Because then someone else might do it to you.... see we NEED to have rules or morals. No one likes them, but they're here. I think then it would make sense that God created us to co-exist together SUCCESSFULLY without breaking any of his orders, and in the end you'll get paradise. If you fail to achieve this, then you deserve punishment.
EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE! Afterlife is basically judging how you did in this life.
And on sex. Sex is encouraged but ONLY after marriage. Most people are hypocrites. They loathe on this while they're young and horny, but when they have daughters/wives/moms they hate that fact. Some pretend they don't, but deep inside it bothers them all.
It's a two way route.
No not at all. Sex SHOULD be pleasurable, but only after marriage. Why should you go screwing other people's daughters/moms/wives just for pleasure and one night stands? Would you like it to happen to someone connected to you? No.
Religions are good means for keeping people from wrongdoings. Fearing of a supernatural force is greater than that of any other kind of force such as laws or social rules. When you don't do something wrong to avoid the punishment the social rules or the laws would enforce on you, you will do it the moment you find a loophole. But when you are afraid of a supernatural force who can bring justice to you (if not in the earthly world, in the next then) you won't do it even when you can fool the laws in a way. This is all of course in theory though, as I see how people find religious loopholes and justifications too
People sin every minute. So either
a) They say they believe in god, but they don't.
b) They don't believe the punishment will come after all.
c) They believe god is merciful (ie. what the teachings say, no?) and will forgive them.
d) etc...
OP
You accused people of being selfish. Usually, you accuse people of doing something wrong. Thus, according to you, being selfish is wrong. You didn't say it, but it certainly seemed like you meant it.
I don't expect anything in return for being good to others. I'll accept anything that life throws at me, happiness and sadness alike.
I have faith in myself, in my judgement, my skills, my intentions and my decisions. I just don't have faith in an invisible man.
I never asked you to not believe in anything. I only ask you to believe in something practical, something logical, something that makes sense, something that doesn't leave you with more questions while attempting to provide answers.
Tell me, oh enlightened one, how do I check if my beliefs are correct? How do you check if YOUR beliefs are correct?
There's a reason I said "prove it by finding answers from the holy book YOU follow". So effectively, I'm asking answers from 1 religion.
Most of the questions I asked were about you. You don't need a book to answer questions about yourself. Unless you don't have the answers about yourself and what you believe in.
I don't expect anything in return for being good to others. I'll accept anything that life throws at me, happiness and sadness alike.
I have faith in myself, in my judgement, my skills, my intentions and my decisions. I just don't have faith in an invisible man.
I never asked you to not believe in anything. I only ask you to believe in something practical, something logical, something that makes sense, something that doesn't leave you with more questions while attempting to provide answers.
Tell me, oh enlightened one, how do I check if my beliefs are correct? How do you check if YOUR beliefs are correct?
There's a reason I said "prove it by finding answers from the holy book YOU follow". So effectively, I'm asking answers from 1 religion.
Most of the questions I asked were about you. You don't need a book to answer questions about yourself. Unless you don't have the answers about yourself and what you believe in.
Even if a person does something evil in his life that doesn't make the person "an evil person". Because he probably also did lots of good things in his life. It's probably impossible to find someone who never did anything evil, but you can still say that people are good most of the time.
Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. If god wanted us to follow his orders, then why did he create evil humans? If he wanted humans to be good, he would create humans who are good. That actually would make sense.
If I want a house that is safe from the rain, would I build a house with a big hole in the roof? No, that would be crazy.
Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. If god wanted us to follow his orders, then why did he create evil humans? If he wanted humans to be good, he would create humans who are good. That actually would make sense.
If I want a house that is safe from the rain, would I build a house with a big hole in the roof? No, that would be crazy.
OP
What difference does marriage make? It is afterall a senseless ritual where you ask the invisible man to accept your relationship. If you like a woman, and she likes you too, then there's no reason why you two shouldn't live together.
Would I like it? I guess it doesn't matter as long as that someone likes it!
Would I like it? I guess it doesn't matter as long as that someone likes it!
No one never makes sins, everyone does. The point is you shouldn't do them on purpose, and when you do you seek forgivness from God and hopefully he will forgive you, because as you said, God is merciful.
Marriage is declaring your love to the world. What do you prefer? To get together with a woman that has slept with tons of guys before you, a woman that lived together with other men for years, and then marry her OR fall in love with a girl that has been saving herself for you and marry her?
I guess it doesn't work like that in all cases, but point is, marriage has a reason.
Marriage is declaring your love to the world. What do you prefer? To get together with a woman that has slept with tons of guys before you, a woman that lived together with other men for years, and then marry her OR fall in love with a girl that has been saving herself for you and marry her?
I guess it doesn't work like that in all cases, but point is, marriage has a reason.
Religions have failed to make their followers any better than other people. They have failed to make better societies, better places to live. Even if it's people's fault who don't follow their religions correctly, it is still a failure for religion which has turned to a very personal matter rather than a social one on the contrary to its initial purpose.
Freedom without limits could and would cause havoc.
Because I believe in it.
Oh really? So if something is "not obvious" means I shouldn't bother? Couldn't it mean that it's worth the extra effort in the end?
How do you KNOW that it is false? Do you really buy the BULLSHIT that people are just born when their parents decide to have sex, then they live for a while on planet earth, and then die. THAT'S IT? Are you really that shallow that you don't care or believe that there might be more?
All I know is that no man can ever imagine it or think of it, and that it is the highest level of pleasure forever. You get to rest in heaven forever and get what you want whenever you want and enjoy EVERYTHING forever.
On the other hand, in hell you'll get to burn forever if you weren't a believer. If you were a believer, but your sins amassed your good deeds, then you will be tortured until its balanced out and then you can go to heaven.
First of all you need to believe in God or else you'll go straight to hell. Now, if you believe in God, then you'll be judged upon your acts. There is only good deeds and sins. There are certain things you are asked to do, like prayers, and some things you are prohibited of, like drinking and having sex outside marriage. Everything is basically qualified to good and bad. If something is not prohibited in religion then it is not considered a sin. In the end everything you do in life is calculated and if your good deeds are more than your sins then you'll go to heaven. If your sins are more but you are a believer, then you'll be tortured in hell for a while and then go to heaven.
Because I believe in it.
Oh really? So if something is "not obvious" means I shouldn't bother? Couldn't it mean that it's worth the extra effort in the end?
How do you KNOW that it is false? Do you really buy the BULLSHIT that people are just born when their parents decide to have sex, then they live for a while on planet earth, and then die. THAT'S IT? Are you really that shallow that you don't care or believe that there might be more?
All I know is that no man can ever imagine it or think of it, and that it is the highest level of pleasure forever. You get to rest in heaven forever and get what you want whenever you want and enjoy EVERYTHING forever.
On the other hand, in hell you'll get to burn forever if you weren't a believer. If you were a believer, but your sins amassed your good deeds, then you will be tortured until its balanced out and then you can go to heaven.
First of all you need to believe in God or else you'll go straight to hell. Now, if you believe in God, then you'll be judged upon your acts. There is only good deeds and sins. There are certain things you are asked to do, like prayers, and some things you are prohibited of, like drinking and having sex outside marriage. Everything is basically qualified to good and bad. If something is not prohibited in religion then it is not considered a sin. In the end everything you do in life is calculated and if your good deeds are more than your sins then you'll go to heaven. If your sins are more but you are a believer, then you'll be tortured in hell for a while and then go to heaven.
- Status