The Dreamers' religious discussion thread. (12 Viewers)

[Martin]

What do you think about my views on the subject, Martin?

I think you ask good questions. I would say great questions but I've heard so many public speaker types say that to their audience "that was a great question!" that I just think it sounds gay.

Anything in particular you want me to comment on?

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

I think you ask good questions. I would say great questions but I've heard so many public speaker types say that to their audience "that was a great question!" that I just think it sounds gay.

Anything in particular you want me to comment on?

I don't know. I've never expressed my views on religion and God as openly as last night. In a country where most people believe and worship God, I never really had the chance to discuss it this much. I argued with my mom sometimes, but we'd always agree to disagree. So I'm as curious about others' views on my opinion as much as a girl who gets a makeover... or something like that.

 

[Martin]

I don't know. I've never expressed my views on religion and God as openly as last night. In a country where most people believe and worship God, I never really had the chance to discuss it this much. I argued with my mom sometimes, but we'd always agree to disagree. So I'm as curious about others' views on my opinion as much as a girl who gets a makeover... or something like that.

By makeover do you mean you changed your mind recently or?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No, I meant the urge for receiving feedback.

 

[Martin]

Well if you want feedback you should start a thread where you state something, not just question something. People are much more willing to reply to "I think this" rather than "why do you people think this?".

or something.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Fair enough.

 

[*aca*]

You actually define yourself with that bit when you say "if I was an atheist like you". You won't do anything good unless there is something, anything, you believe in. You need a God to be a good man. You need something to be sacred of to behave. You need any kind of reward or punishment to actually care about other people around you. You are like a prisoner who don't do anything wrong only because he can't.

and this is where religion fails.

Kohlberg's morality development stages:

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

1. Obedience and punishment orientation

(How can I avoid punishment?)

2. Self-interest orientation

(What's in it for me?)

Level 2 (Conventional)

3. Interpersonal accord and conformity

(Social norms)
(The good boy/good girl attitude)

4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation

(Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles

(Principled conscience)

In terms of morality development, people that get their morality from religion can never surpass stage 4 of morality development stages.

Religious morality is authoritarian morality that wants to preserve social order. It is not interested in justice or righting the wrong, as long as the law is enforced.

Dropping the shekels of religious morality is the only way to move forward, so to speak and do good for goodness sake, not for fear of punishment or hope for reward.

Religion reached adolescence, but it is far from maturity.

 

[mikhail]

Aca, I love you man.

 

[*aca*]

Aca, I love you man.

only till next Lazio - juve game

cheers

 

[king Ale]

I actually don't take this seriously, people say it all the time. And I don't believe they've even thought about "what it would be like" for a second. If they had, their statements wouldn't all be the same boilerplate.

In fact, this mindset is epidemic of religious discourse. It's like most of the people internalized "the story" as they've heard it repeated many times and they just deliver it when they're talking to you. It's when I hear a nuanced point of view that I actually believe the person has done some thinking on the subject.

The way the guy put it was like the way people define UFOs That's why I said living only with people of his own belief might be a reason for that. Now I don't know where this guy is from but I'm sure he has barely actually met (or talked to) an atheist. In Iran people mostly prefer not to express their religious beliefs so someone who doesn't believe in what the majority do, does only exist in theory and in theory, this person must be a horrible one, caring only about himself, always drunk and in bed with girls.

I don't know. I've never expressed my views on religion and God as openly as last night. In a country where most people believe and worship God, I never really had the chance to discuss it this much. I argued with my mom sometimes, but we'd always agree to disagree. So I'm as curious about others' views on my opinion as much as a girl who gets a makeover... or something like that.

I noticed that too. Only on facebook did I realize that you are an atheist and it was surprising to see that you finally decided to take part in a religious discussion

 

[The Dreamer]

This is what happens when you only get to know people of your own belief, talk only to them, live only with them. To you, atheists don't care about anyone or anything except themselves and what makes themselves happy so you come up with such (a retarded) definition of those who don't think like you do.

You actually define yourself with that bit when you say "if I was an atheist like you". You won't do anything good unless there is something, anything, you believe in. You need a God to be a good man. You need something to be sacred of to behave. You need any kind of reward or punishment to actually care about other people around you. You are like a prisoner who don't do anything wrong only because he can't.

I believe that all human beings are naturally pure evil. You are genetically selfish, it's the basic means to survive. People have to find a way to co-exist with one another, but once you find a weakness in another person you WILL try to gain from it. People with morals are either:

a) sissys
b) have a fear from a higher power (God, karma, whatever)
c) both

The rest who say they are for some other reason are pure hypocrites imo. If no one will punish you (and by one I mean God or people) for your acts, then you will do whatever you like and it could so easily mean hurting/killing/destroying another person.

 

[Martin]

The way the guy put it was like the way people define UFOs That's why I said living only with people of his own belief might be a reason for that. Now I don't know where this guy is from but I'm sure he has barely actually met (or talked to) an atheist. In Iran people mostly prefer not to express their religious beliefs so someone who doesn't believe in what the majority do, does only exist in theory and in theory, this person must be a horrible one, caring only about himself, always drunk and in bed with girls.

Yeah, they're like characters in a cartoon or something. If you've ever seen "Jesus camp" type of people on youtube they talk like that too. It's quite funny sometimes

 

[The Dreamer]

Dreamer, I'm still waiting for you to answer this. 2nd last post of Page 3 if you're wondering.

Give me your questions...

 

[Fred]

I believe that all human beings are naturally pure evil. You are genetically selfish, it's the basic means to survive. People have to find a way to co-exist with one another, but once you find a weakness in another person you WILL try to gain from it. People with morals are either:

a) sissys
b) have a fear from a higher power (God, karma, whatever)
c) both

The rest who say they are for some other reason are pure hypocrites imo. If no one will punish you (and by one I mean God or people) for your acts, then you will do whatever you like and it could so easily mean hurting/killing/destroying another person.

Thats the strangest thing i've ever heard mate, good luck backing that up

 

[Martin]

I believe that all human beings are naturally pure evil. You are genetically selfish, it's the basic means to survive. People have to find a way to co-exist with one another, but once you find a weakness in another person you WILL try to gain from it. People with morals are either:

a) sissys
b) have a fear from a higher power (God, karma, whatever)
c) both

The rest who say they are for some other reason are pure hypocrites imo. If no one will punish you (and by one I mean God or people) for your acts, then you will do whatever you like and it could so easily mean hurting/killing/destroying another person.

All human beings are pure evil? What about your parents, are they pure evil in the way they raised you? Did they try to torture you at every step?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I noticed that too. Only on facebook did I realize that you are an atheist and it was surprising to see that you finally decided to take part in a religious discussion

I know. I usually try to stay away from such discussions. I was largely ignoring that conversation until I saw him post that he "knows" that God exists.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I believe that all human beings are naturally pure evil. You are genetically selfish, it's the basic means to survive. People have to find a way to co-exist with one another, but once you find a weakness in another person you WILL try to gain from it. People with morals are either:

a) sissys
b) have a fear from a higher power (God, karma, whatever)
c) both

The rest who say they are for some other reason are pure hypocrites imo. If no one will punish you (and by one I mean God or people) for your acts, then you will do whatever you like and it could so easily mean hurting/killing/destroying another person.

That's just your negativity distorting your opinion about humans. There are both types of humans. Some are selfish, some are selfless.

Give me your questions...

Like I said, 2nd last post on page 3.

 

[The Dreamer]

Thanks.

I think religion is essentially something pure and holy, but has manifested into something obscene and disgusting through the hands of corrupt religious authorities over the course of many centuries. As for which religion is the right one, I think it's best to reserve my opinion to when I'm more informed. If you take away the bogotry and fundamentalism associated with religion. I think it can be very helpful to any society.

I believe the problem is that we tend to be more interested in justifying our opinions in the interest of being right rather than genuinely seek truth. You barely see any theists buy a book for Hitchens or Dawkins, or a atheists buying a book for Craig or C.S Lewis. Instead of weighing both sides of the argument and then choosing a side, most people seem to do it the other way. They choose a side and then become interested in finding supporting arguments for their side.

I agree on the first part.

However, I don't necessairly agree with the second one. We will never find an answer, no matter how hard you try. I mean logically. It gets so confusing and way beyond the human brain. I always enjoy a philosophical debate as it is interesting and makes people think out of the box, which is always a good thing. But in the end you need to stick to a side and have FAITH that it is true.

At least that's what I'm thinking. If there was a true logical way to understand, people would have figured it already. By reading both sides you only confuse yourself more. You need to stick to the side that suits more your belief system, i.e.: this life is the only thing you get so make the best of it, or this life is only a means to an end... a test where you prove whether you deserve pleasure or torturing.

 

[The Dreamer]

Thats the strangest thing i've ever heard mate, good luck backing that up

Why? Tell me where you think human beings are NATURALLY good and I'll gladly try to prove it wrong.

All human beings are pure evil? What about your parents, are they pure evil in the way they raised you? Did they try to torture you at every step?

They treat me in the best of ways. Why? Because it makes THEM feel good to see me good.

If it doesn't matter to them on any level, they won't do it.

That's just your negativity distorting your opinion about humans. There are both types of humans. Some are selfish, some are selfless.

If you are not selfish, why do you work? You work to get money, to make a living, to enjoy YOUR life.

Would you take a job where ALL your money goes to other people? No. Why? Because it's stupid. Why? Because everyone is selfish. Why? To survive.

 

[Martin]

They treat me in the best of ways. Why? Because it makes THEM feel good to see me good.

If it doesn't matter to them on any level, they won't do it.

Think about what you're saying. You just said that if you do good then it makes your parents happy. Is this the description of an evil person? Do evil people take pleasure in the success of others?

Because that's not how most people define evil.