Since most of us here have limited access to information about the trial, I wanted to share the point of view of another Juventino who is better informed about this issue. Written by James Sultana to the juve yahoo mailing list.
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>Is Juventus guilty of doping? This is obviously the central question. In
>my opinion, Juventus used in those years the same medical help that most
>other Serie A teams used (even Zeman said that he's surprised Juve is
>the only team involved). I'm not sure they used EPO, although the
>evidence presented at the trial suggests so, but even if they did they
>certainly weren't the only team doing so.
So far I didn`t comment anything on this topic, but I feel like a have to
share my opinion with the list.
It seems that the major issue in all this is the EPO part. Now, so far only
the sentences are known, because the judge has a further 90 days to make
his motivations (the reasons why he gave that sentence) public.....which
is something which doesn`t make sense in my view. So, first you are found
guilty, then the media start firign whatever comes in its mind...and then
after three months, the judge will tell the real truth why in HIS opinion
you are guilty (which means that he can also alter his motivations
according to the public opinion).
Now...as we all know, this so called trial started SIX YEARS ago...and at
that time it was about creatine and about the use of conventional medicines
for purposes which weren`t their original ones. In six whole years NOBODY
MENTIONED EPO....until LAST JULY....FOUR MONTHS AGO !! Moreover, this EPO
story was never presented by the prosection...BUT...by an "independent "
expert appointed by the JUDGE HIMSELF !
For those not familiar with EPO, it is a sort of "drug" which increases the
number of red blood cells. The red bloodcells are used by the body to carry
oxygen to the muscles, and the more oxygen given to the muscles, the
greater the performance. The medical reason for this drug was to help
people with low-red bloodcell count (who therefore are somewhat weak).
Obviously though, if it an help turn a weak person to a nomal level, it
will help a normal person to be even stronger. The big downside (and the
major danger0 is that red blood cells make the blood thicker and hence it
is more strenuous on the heart and it can lead to heart attacks / deaths
under stress.
To prevent this, a sort of an average red bloodcell ration that a "normal"
person`s blood was calculated, and then a "recomended maximum limit" was
calculated. The MOST RELIABLE (and up to this year the only method) to
check this was to make a test on the actual blood sample itself. The
problem to take blood samples from athletes are that in theory they could
argue that you are violating their privacy...because while urine is a body
reject which is released from the body and hence you can collect it easily,
to take a blood sample you have to force it out of the body. (Apart from
the red bloodcell count, a blood sample provides a more reliable sample
even for the common dope test which is done from urine sample).
Moreover, it is also a known fact that although on average, the red
bloodcell count is nearly the same for everyone, there are exceptions where
people have a high count which is natural. Apart from that, there are also
conditions that could lead to "large" changes in this count in a very short
period time (even a day)...such as a big change in altitude and after a
very exhausting event (such as a marathon). In fact, the World Cycling
Federation, which is the first association which had mandatory blood tests
for this red cell count, when BEFORE a race a rider is found to have a red
cell count which is above the limit, the official reason why he is stopped
from taking part in a race and "banned" from competing for a month is a
precautionary measure for the athlete`s medical well-being safety. This is
because unless you can prove that the athlete did take EPO or at least find
him with the drug in his possession, a high count itself IS NOT a proof
that this was increased with EPO or any other method. Moreover, the ONLY
football association which has mandatory blood sample tests is the Italian
FA...and these were only introduced last season, and only for those players
selected in the routine anti-doping tests.
From this we can already conclude that :
(a) For the period in question (1994-98) NOBODY ever underwent testing for
red bloodcell count
(b) The high count in itself is not a proof of EPO administration
(c) Even if Juve did use EPO (which is not proven), there is nothing to
prove that other teams did not use (and that they are still not using it).
(d) EPO cannot be traced using the conventional dope-test methods.
Now, in this so called expert`s report, the conclusion is " that it is
highly PROBABLE that SOME Juve players took EPO". First of all, the method
used by this export is not recognised by anyone in the world as a reliable
method (in my opinion he did this to try to gain publicity for his
method). Moreover, the "SOME Juve players" refers to JUST TWO....Antonio
Conte and Alessio Tacchinardi...just two out of all the players that Juve
had in those years. Hence, even if it was to be true that these players
used EPO, surely it cannot be said that Juve made use of EPO to gain
advantage. What makes this theory crumble even further is the fact that
the blood values taken into consideration by this expert were from a period
in which Conte and Tacchinardi were injured, and hence cannot be considered
as "normal athletes using EPO to gain adavntage" as at that time they were
during a recovery period (medication). According to the expert, the large
changes in the red cell count he saw in his analysis was not a natural
one...but according to Giraudo, irrespective of the change, the value of
these players was NEVER ABOVE the allowed limit. Apart from all this, in
any law case, you have to PROVE BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT your case to
find someone guilty...and in his thesis the expert only found a "high
probability". To declare that Juve used EPO based on this theory is like
saying that all Russian buisnessmen are corrupt and tax evaders because
some of them had an unusual increase in their bank account.
So...for the EPO chapter, we can further conclude that :
{e} The analysis method used is not recognised
(f) The use of EPO was NOT 100% proven
(g) Only the analyses of two players indicate an increase in red-cell count
(Juve had around 80 players in that period)...and the players were not in
an "active" period...and the level was still NOT above the limits.
(h) During the raids made by both the police and the investigating team, NO
EPO related products were found at Juve, no invoices to parties selling EPO
were found (only invoices for other medicinals were found) and no hidden
money purchases could be linked.
(I) Moreover, so far the judge NEVER said that Agricola used EPO. The judge
said that Agricola is guilty of illegal use of medicinals and sports fraud.
Whether the medicinals include EPO or not will only be known when the
motivations are made public. Besides, the fact that Agricola was given a
22-month sentence when the prosecution requested 36 indicates that there
wasn`t maximum guilt...and hence given that EPO should be the peak of this
trial, I doubt about the motivations.
If we were to leave EPO out of the equation, the remaining issue is that
Agricola used medicines for purposes they weren`t intended for (e.g using
anti-depression medicine to stimulate concentration) and the use of
creatine. Creatine is in my opinion out of the equation : it wasn`t banned
and it isn`t banned, and although there are recommendations of what
a normal dosage should be, there is no real proof of what amount can cause
trouble later in life. Doping regulations give the "facility" to team
doctors to write down in the pre-match form which normal medications each
player took in the three days preceeding a game so that if a substance is
found in the dopetest, it an be verified whether those products have that
substance and if yes the team doctor has to justify its use. Giraudo said
that after a year of insisting, the judge gave them the full list of
medications indicated by ALL Serie A teams in their pre-game sheets for the
period in question....and Juve are in the MIDDLE...so there are teams which
declared more medicines than Juve.
Besides, in that period no Juve player failed a dope test, neither in Italy
nor in Europe....and not even with the national team. The media is now
bringing back to the public`s attention the fact that the dope-test lab
used by CONI at that time was found to have been doing large irregularities
and had many lost records.....BUT...that case regards all teams, and NEVER
it has been even mentioned that Juve tampered / influenced with the doping
samples / tests / results...so what goes for Juve goes for all the rest as
regards false test results and lost records. In that same period Juve
reached four consecutive finals in Europe, so they played a lot of
games...but they never failed a dopetest.
And although the impression being given is that Juve used drugs to be able
to win, nobody is saying that in that same period Juve LOST three finals in
Europe.I guess that if the club was able to create super-humans able to win
without being caught (such as by using EPO) they would have surely used
these methods for the finals out of all games !
And even though there is a mentioning of use of drugs and sports fraud, the
prosecution FAILED to MENTION (let alone prove) JUST ONE SINGLE GAME in
which Juve players used drugs to win.
Even one of the reasons given by Guarinello in his thesis shows the
absurdity of this trial : "Juve didn`t win for 10 years, but then it
started winning again. And we couldn`t understand why"....so what should be
said of Man Utd...who didn`t win for 26 years ? And Roma and Lazio who won
after very long periods ? And when Inter will one day win the scudetto ??
>Should Juve give back the titles won in those years? IMO, if Juve is
>found guilty in appeal they should.
In my opinion, giving back the titles should only be considered if
(a) It is PROVEN 100% that Juve made SYSTEMATIC use of anything ILLEGAL AT
THAT TIME on at least the MAJORITY of its first team players
(b) It is PROVEN 100% that NONE of the other teams made use of ANYTHING SIMILAR
(c) Juve are GIVEN BACK what was taken from them by changing the RULES ON
THE EVE OF THE DECIDING GAME due to the fact that the non-EU player
situation was out of control
(d) Juve are GIVEN BACK what was taken from them and OTHER TEAMS GIVE BACK
what they won with PROVEN FALSE PASSPORTS
(e) Juve are GIVEN BACK what was taken from them and OTHER TEAMS GIVE BACK
what they gained with PROVEN FALSE BANK GUARANTEES.
(f) ITALY gives back the UNDER21 title won with TACCHINARDI in the team in 1996
(g) ITALY gives back the money it got from EURO 96 and WC98 with CONTE in
the team.
Until this happens, I don`t even consider Juve handing back anything won.
Besides, not even a points deduction this season is acceptable...no team
ever had points deducted for false passports or false bank guarantees ! And
some teams got out free even on when their players were foud guilty of
BRIBES...which is sports fraud as well.
ABout this topic, one can talk and discuss for ever...but I guess its
better if I stop for today.
JAMES
Buy on AliExpress.com
). Like a dressmaker could know these things...
I fell in love with him all over again too, after reading 
