The causality approach (7 Viewers)

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,189
#21
Now here comes the turn of my "leap of faith":D

If it wasn't for Mohammed I would certainly become agnostic, but IMO it was practically IMPOSSIBLE for Mohammed to lie and since Mohammed was telling the truth IMO then there must be God (a new fact which doesn't contradict ANYTHING I previously believed in).
No, you got that wrong. It wasn't practically impossible. Not even close to that actually. Which is why we had our entire discussion in the first place.

Now if you admit that it's a leap of faith, it doesn't really matter. If you say it's faith, it's not necessary to prove that Muhammad didn't lie. All that's important then, is that you believe he didn't.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Dec 26, 2004
10,624
#22
Well it does contradict what you just said:



If we can never tell, doesn't that mean that Mohammed, whoever he was, also could never tell?

Imagine if I'm Mohammed and you are god. What could you possibly say to me to convince me that you created the universe? Anything you could say you can't prove to me, not in a way that I could understand because I live on the chessboard, right?

It's illogical.
Your argument is better suited for the "how" not the ''who".

If it was a "how" I would certainly agree.
 
Dec 26, 2004
10,624
#23
No, you got that wrong. It wasn't practically impossible. Not even close to that actually. Which is why we had our entire discussion in the first place.

Now if you admit that it's a leap of faith, it doesn't really matter. If you say it's faith, it's not necessary to prove that Muhammad didn't lie. All that's important then, is that you believe he didn't.
I believe it was impossible for Mohammed to lie.

Does this simple sentence clearly explain where I stand?
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#24
Your argument is better suited for the "how" not the ''who".

If it was a "how" I would certainly agree.
It applies equally to all questions. Who, how, why, when.. all of this is undefined.

If you cannot know how it was created, why would you trust the who? If I told you I built an airplane and you said "how?" and I said "I'm not going to tell you", would you believe me that I had built one? At least if I told you how it would prove that I know how to build one.
 

rounder

Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#25
Snake Midget.

Here's the thing, the law of causality is a fundamental law of nature. It simply cannot be broken, if it were broken, nothing would make sense. Let me clarify.

A couple of boys were playing in a public park when suddenly, they spot a huge kangaroo infront of them.

Jack says," Whoah, where did that kangaroo come from?"
Tim replies," Nowhere, it's just here."

It's easy to see the ridiculousness of the statement. Nothing in nature pops out of nothing; everything that comes into being will naturally have a cause. This statement applies to everything in nature, it would really have to in order for us to be able to explain the world we live in. If the rule of causality did not apply to absolutely everything in nature, then surely we would see elephants randomly appearing in our living room.

Here are the premises for the orgin of the universe.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.

Thus from 1 and 2. We conclude that the universe must have had a cause.

Why not a natural cause?

Since nothing preceded the Big Bang because the Big Bang was the starting point in time. The only possible cause would be a supernatural cause, one that is unbounded by the limits of space and time. This is what we call God.

Now, the fundamental misconception here is that theists are again using the "GOd of the Gaps" approach. But this is not true. We are not using this approach at all, simply because if the premises are true, and the majority of the scientific world agree upon both these premises, this would directly imply that a supernatural cause is a very plausible explanation, perhaps even the only logical explanation that remains consistent with the laws of nature and with recent scientific revelations such as the Big Bang.
 
Dec 26, 2004
10,624
#26
Let me put it as simple as possible using the chessboard aka Martin.

1) We (human being) belong to chessboard.

2) Operations like LEFT and RIGHT is always true within chessboard.

3) Something like NULL isn't explainable within chessboard.

4) Taking all the above in consideration we can NEVER explain (a1 = RIGHT NULL).

Conclusion:

Q) Who created the starting point?

A) Hell, we can NEVER tell.
@ Martin

I will use my post as a reference as we both agree on everything mentioned in it.

a) Mohammed is a human being.

b) If X came to Mohammed and show him he can manipulate LEFT and RIGHT, he know whats is hidden at state a7 when we are at state a3.

c) From a,b, 2: Mohammed must believe that X is a superpower.

So basically yes, X can prove Mohammed is a superpower even without the need to prove him that he created chessboard.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#27
@JR
Congratulations, you've managed to complete miss the point of both snake's post and then my exchange with DelpieroForLife, we all understood this point.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#28
@ Martin

I will use my post as a reference as we both agree on everything mentioned in it.

a) Mohammed is a human being.

b) If X came to Mohammed and show him he can manipulate LEFT and RIGHT, he know whats is hidden at state a7 when we are at state a3.

c) From a,b, 2: Mohammed must believe that X is a superpower.

So basically yes, X can prove Mohammed is a superpower even without the need to prove him that he created chessboard.
I don't understand. What do you mean by "hidden"?

But even if he could manipulate the natural world he could not prove that he created the universe. Because this "creation" has to take place outside the chessboard.
 

rounder

Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#29
@JR
Congratulations, you've managed to complete miss the point of both snake's post and then my exchange with DelpieroForLife, we all understood this point.
I didn't read your posts. I only read Snake's, what he is saying is basically true. I merely wanted to explain why it is not the "God of the Gaps" approach as he concluded.
 
OP
Hist

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #30
    Let me put it as simple as possible using the chessboard aka Martin.

    1) We (human being) belong to chessboard.

    2) Operations like LEFT and RIGHT is always true within chessboard.

    3) Something like NULL isn't explainable within chessboard.

    4) Taking all the above in consideration we can NEVER explain (a1 = RIGHT NULL).

    Conclusion:

    Q) Who created the starting point?

    A) Hell, we can NEVER tell.
    Absolutely fantastic example by martin and you:mark:


    For instance, you're talking about a 'leap of faith'. But the first leap of faith in your post I see is one you used yourself: that the causality principle holds on for everything. And after that you basically proved yourself why your own assumption is wrong.
    We come to know natural laws, like everything, through induction. And in practice causality is always true and this makes us project it as a Law that applies to everything. My argument was that we cannot know how the world started except by either breaking our beloved law or by inventing a concept that is higher than the laws of causality.

    There is no answer to this question and so:
    If your main conclusion is that it's unfair to choose one of atheism or theism (in the most broad sense) over the other, then I agree though.

    I was also showing that theists believe in their suggestion even though the answer should be "we cannot know" while atheists believe that whatever the solution is, it is not the theistic one and they too should say "we cannot know"
    so Yes we are in agreement.



    I am glad this thread reached a conclusion:dule:
     
    Dec 26, 2004
    10,624
    #31
    I don't understand. What do you mean by "hidden"?

    But even if he could manipulate the natural world he could not prove that he created the universe. Because this "creation" has to take place outside the chessboard.
    Nothing, I assumed Mohammed is in state a3 and he needs a couple of RIGHT operations (time) to reach state a7 so when someone come and tell him about it he MUST be supernatural to chessboard.

    You know what?

    Lets just assume my "leap of faith" is wrong and Mohammed's God is lying about creating the chessboard this can only lead us to a FACT that some other God DID create the chessboard.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #32
    Lets just assume my "leap of faith" is wrong and Mohammed's God is lying about creating the chessboard this can only lead us to a FACT that some other God DID create the chessboard.
    Of course not. It only leads us to the FACT that we don't know how the history of chessboard. If we are in a murder investigation and we don't know who the killer is, do we automatically say "it was god"?

    We don't know if it was created, if so in what way, if it was there all the time, or if it keeps getting created and destroyed in an infinite cycle.

    Not knowing something never means "god must have done it".

    See, if you already believe in god. And you have some mystery to solve. And you think to yourself "god was probably not busy at the time, he could do it" then it seems logical that god did it. But the only way this is logical is to first assume that there is god.
     
    Dec 26, 2004
    10,624
    #35
    Of course not. It only leads us to the FACT that we don't know how the history of chessboard. If we are in a murder investigation and we don't know who the killer is, do we automatically say "it was god"?

    We don't know if it was created, if so in what way, if it was there all the time, or if it keeps getting created and destroyed in an infinite cycle.

    Not knowing something never means "god must have done it".

    See, if you already believe in god. And you have some mystery to solve. And you think to yourself "god was probably not busy at the time, he could do it" then it seems logical that god did it. But the only way this is logical is to first assume that there is god.
    If Mohammed is telling the truth => Mohammed's God is supernatural.

    Do we agree?
     
    OP
    Hist

    Hist

    Founder of Hism
    Jan 18, 2009
    11,400
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #40
    I didn't read your posts. I only read Snake's, what he is saying is basically true. I merely wanted to explain why it is not the "God of the Gaps" approach as he concluded.
    Read martin and dpforlife's posts or re-read mine.
    You will see that we arrived at a problem, which was that everything natural (everything humans know or experience in anyway/ anything inside the chessboard) cannot be the cause of the universe. This is what we know.

    I KNOW that the universe's origin was not created by any means we know.
    SO lets put it in this wording:

    I KNOW that the universe was created by means that i do not know exist


    Agnostics would stop here and give no further explanation as this is the best claim of knowledge any human can make.

    Theists would take the bold part means that i do not know exist
    and do this:
    means that i do not know exist = Super-natural = God

    This is not a claim of knowledge, it is one way of solving the problem even if its not scientific.


    so yes he serves as a hole filler in this case
     

    Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 7)