The 4-yr. old Preacher (102 Viewers)

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Sheik Yerbouti
Apr 15, 2006
56,618
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  • Thread Starter #381
    I disagree but you're over thinking my analogy anyway.

    E, I don't believe you actually feel the lack of gravity...it's more like you feel the difference from when you're on land.
    Let me put it differently: you can see and feel the effects if gravity. Just like you cannot see a black hole, Burr you can observe the effect it has on its surroundings. The same can be said about air and wind.
     

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    OP
    Sheik Yerbouti
    Apr 15, 2006
    56,618
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  • Thread Starter #382
    It's pretty much a guarantee that if you follow Gods path and seek his help that he'll answer your prayers. You can't expect to be ridiculing and insulting God 24/7 and be surprised why he doesn't exist in your life. That's just common sense.

    Prayers are answered but I can't give you any proof of it because you'll write it off as a random event or the like. Until you believe you won't know what it's like. It's like explaining gravity to someone...its not an element, a gas, it can't be seen, it can't even be felt. It can only be explained and measured by explaining things around it.
    That's not common sense at all. A creator will cherish his creation no matter how much ridicule. It's like mothers love. The love for their children is immense, and takes a LOT for her to turn her back on her children. If mothers (humans) can show unconditional love, why can't God? Why is he so petty? Why does he play this little game of 'you show me your wee-wee and I'll show you mine'? What does an eternal, timeless and spaceless being gain by such cheap demands? Doesn't he have anything better to do that devote all his attention to us? I'd think some one who created a whole bloody universe has a lot more in his agenda.

    About proof, the world doesn't work that way, my friend. Proof and evidence is paramount to belief. You live all your life selling proof and evidence for all facets of life, except religion, which somehow doesn't need it be believed. I cannot commit such a logical hipocracy.
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    First off you're under the impression that we (anyone that believes in God) has just randomly come up with what God is and what he wants from us. If you want to discuss what we believe then you have to remain in that circle. We believe what is in his book and the teachings of his prophets. So when you say: "A creator will cherish his creation no matter how much ridicule. It's like mothers love. The love for their children is immense, and takes a LOT for her to turn her back on her children" I want you to quote a source. Don't just randomly come up with what you think is we say. Everything I say can be backed up with what is in the Qur'an, the Hadith, or Sunna. I won't come up with arguments outside of this and if I do I'll let you know it's a theory or something speculative.

    If you can't do this then we can't have this discussion because you can't assume an understanding of what I believe to fit your argument.
     
    OP
    Sheik Yerbouti
    Apr 15, 2006
    56,618
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  • Thread Starter #384
    I'm not talking scripture, but common sense. You said that I can't expect to ridicule God and expect him to answer my prayers. But you said that it was 'common sense', and did not say "that's what it says in the scripture". Thus my argument is still valid.

    So going by common sense, a creator loves his creation regardless of whether the creation reciprocates the love shown by the creator.

    Now please answer my questions posed in my previous post.
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    I said that because I knew you weren't actually discussing scripture and that's actually why I just brought up that you should only question things what we actually believe based on scripture and not what your assumption of it is but like I said everything can be backed up.
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    PS: Free thinking has no scripture I can quote from.
    The belief in a singular God came from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and each one of their understanding of Him is from their scripture and since that is what we are discussing you have to quote scripture. Otherwise we have no discussion.
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
    Moderator
    Mar 6, 2007
    72,598
    These gods can't lose can they: if they answer your prayers then they are mighty, if not it is for your own good but you don't realise it yet.
    If you win the lottery of life it is god's gift, but if you are tortured, downtrodden, starved, or cancer ridden your reward awaits in the afterlife.

    If in one of the thousand pages of scripture a vague (Nostradamus like) reference is made about the wonder of the world, scientific evidence will be used to show just how prophetic the scriptures are and how god's magisty is at the heart of creation.

    Més que un Dios.
    I believe written scripture was/is solely to keep the wealthy in check and the poor sane.
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
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    Mar 6, 2007
    72,598
    I won't quote all of this as it's a big post.

    A black hole is different to the Big Crunch, however. A black hole is a localised event, even for a supermassive one. The Big Crunch is the theoretical implosion of the entire universe. Although either scenario could be covered in this piece:

    The clear message of this verse is that the universe is not eternal. It speaks of a future when the heavens will be rolled up, in a manner similar to the rolling up of a scroll. Scientific descriptions illustrating the making of a black hole, very closely resemble what the Quran describes in the above verse. (See plate 1).
    Even if it is rather general and romanticised.
     
    OP
    Sheik Yerbouti
    Apr 15, 2006
    56,618
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #393
    The reality is a prayer can only be answered if one believes and is earnestly asking. If you don't believe in God it would be like me praying to the great pumpkin, empty and with no weight because I do not believe the great pumpkin exists.
    For the first 15-20 years of my life, I had unquestioned faith in my gods. Even in this time when my faith and belief was at its purest, I never felt anything special or magical or as you would describe it, the presence of God. Every day in school, I would thank God for the food we were eating, and pray to keep us strong and healthy. Yet, I always fell sick every year. Be it a small flu, a fever or chicken pox, it didn't help. I would pray to God to keep my family safe. Yet, when I was 9, my father died.

    Now tell me again why I should believe that prayers work?
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    I won't quote all of this as it's a big post.

    A black hole is different to the Big Crunch, however. A black hole is a localised event, even for a supermassive one. The Big Crunch is the theoretical implosion of the entire universe. Although either scenario could be covered in this piece:



    Even if it is rather general and romanticised.
    Isn't this an accurate description of what the Big Crunch is?

    "In physical cosmology, the Big Crunch is one possible scenario for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe recollapses, ultimately ending as a black hole singularity." - taken from Wiki

    It's the return to that singularity and the repeat Big Bangs, no?
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
    Moderator
    Mar 6, 2007
    72,598
    Partly, although whoever wrote that piece was creating a comparison with black holes to suit Quran scripture. That it also could be portrayed as the Big Crunch shows the open-endedness of such text and how it could portray different events. After all, even in just Islam the scripture can be interpreted differently by both sects and even individuals.
     

    AndreaCristiano

    Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
    Jun 9, 2011
    18,992
    For the first 15-20 years of my life, I had unquestioned faith in my gods. Even in this time when my faith and belief was at its purest, I never felt anything special or magical or as you would describe it, the presence of God. Every day in school, I would thank God for the food we were eating, and pray to keep us strong and healthy. Yet, I always fell sick every year. Be it a small flu, a fever or chicken pox, it didn't help. I would pray to God to keep my family safe. Yet, when I was 9, my father died.

    Now tell me again why I should believe that prayers work?
    As sad as the death of your father is, Jesus earthly Father died when he was twelve yet he went on and continued his mission. Each human being on this planet has his own path , they are born alone and die alone. The in between time and relationships are part of not only their growth but the others around them, when a death like that occurs as much as we don't want to realize it, it is a time for refection not only on the life of the person who past but also on our own mortality. It is to take stock of how we are living our life and how we would want to. To show you one example of the many instances in my life, I will tell you a story. My favorite uncle and I were extremely close. My father and him married my mother and her sister on the same day, they moved to this country together with me in tow, they worked together, lived together and opened our family restaurant together. I walked my first steps to him, was with him fishing all the time. About a year and a half ago, he went into the doctors for a stress test, he came home and took a nap. He got up from his nap and said his head was spinning to my aunt and dropped to the ground turning blue. He flat lined 3 times on the way to the hospital and eventually got helicoptered to another hospital were he was in a coma for 9 days and then breathed his last breath, he was 58. We all prayed for his recovery, but in the end it was his time. At first we didn't understand why, but over this past 2 years we have seen my cousin grow into a man, and take over his fathers restaurant , my other cousin finally take control of his life and move forward. These changes happened because of that death, and there are many more, that I'm not listing here.
    Another quick telling of a story, my grandfather left italy before I was born and came to america to work for ocean spray, he would send money back to my grandmother and eight children,( they were in extreme poverty ) until he started getting sick, my mother at 16 and aunt at 18 came to america to se him. He eventually died of 7 massive strokes at the age of 44. Since my grandfather passed away here my grandmother got a lone from her, brother and took the rest of the children here to america to bury my grandfather here because we had no money to return him to italy. My grandmother moved my whole family here to the USA. At the time it was a tragedy, now when we look back it was a blessing, our family all had huge opportunities, made a good living , my uncles and aunts all met their respective husbands and wives, our family exploded with children. We all are living a good life. If my grandfather never passed we would never had moved to america, and probably would have had different outcomes in life. I mean my parents moved up their wedding because my grandfather died, who knows if that would have even happened if he didn't. We have come to realize that even if we don't understand God's will it always has a purpose. We believe if we ask for something GOD should give us what we want, but in the end he gives us what we need. Even if at the time it seems unbelievable, painful or even disappointing he knows and sees the entire picture, the infinite now, not just the little time we see or comprehend
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
    Moderator
    Mar 6, 2007
    72,598
    Why is that determined as God's will? Isn't that just called getting on with life?

    What you call 'God's will', others would call 'fate'.
     

    IrishZebra

    Western Imperialist
    Jun 18, 2006
    23,327
    That's pretty much evolutionary adaptation right there. Human beings thrive under adversity, that's why we're no.1, we're the sneakiest most intelligent and psychologically adaptable organism on the planet. Whether or not we are products of our environment or not is still a debated subject in fake science but don't patronise the man by saying there was a reason for what happened to him.

    A loving God would not test a 9 year old child in such a way and if he would, he can quite frankly eat a dick.
     

    AndreaCristiano

    Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
    Jun 9, 2011
    18,992
    That's pretty much evolutionary adaptation right there. Human beings thrive under adversity, that's why we're no.1, we're the sneakiest most intelligent and psychologically adaptable organism on the planet. Whether or not we are products of our environment or not is still a debated subject in fake science but don't patronise the man by saying there was a reason for what happened to him.

    A loving God would not test a 9 year old child in such a way and if he would, he can quite frankly eat a dick.
    That assessment means nothing to me. It has nothing to do with evolutionary adaptation. My grandmother moved is here because she didn't have the money to move back. Also once again you all think Gods understanding and feelings liken to our limited human emotions and experience. Our mind can neither comprehend his thoughts, emotions or ideas
     
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