In that case I shall enlist the fattest people I know to counter his attacking army.
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Terrorism (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Zlatan
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In that case I shall enlist the fattest people I know to counter his attacking army.
Buy on AliExpress.com
Nick -- you forget the essence of being French. If the U.S. and much of the world came out publicly in a unified campaign to eliminate illiteracy in the world, the French would be the first in line to protest the immoral eradication of illiterate culture.
France defines itself by being world contrarians. Pure and simple. It doesn't matter what the issue or position is. If France started to "go with the flow" on issues, they would fear losing their "Frenchness". Call them Le Bleus, and they will counter that they are really Le Rouges. Just to piss you off.
But when it comes to oil prices, it's an irony that the U.S. is really about the only major economy paying more for it now. It's a backfire of American fiscal policy that gas has climbed in price significantly in the U.S. and yet it's barely nudged up in other world economies, including France's. (Largely due to exchange rates and the legacy of the Bush Administration's cheap dollar policy. Instead of boosting exports in the face of the cheap Yuan Renminbi firehose as many vainly hoped for, we have instead has made world commodities like oil more expensive for ourselves. Thank you, Don Evans.)
France defines itself by being world contrarians. Pure and simple. It doesn't matter what the issue or position is. If France started to "go with the flow" on issues, they would fear losing their "Frenchness". Call them Le Bleus, and they will counter that they are really Le Rouges. Just to piss you off.
But when it comes to oil prices, it's an irony that the U.S. is really about the only major economy paying more for it now. It's a backfire of American fiscal policy that gas has climbed in price significantly in the U.S. and yet it's barely nudged up in other world economies, including France's. (Largely due to exchange rates and the legacy of the Bush Administration's cheap dollar policy. Instead of boosting exports in the face of the cheap Yuan Renminbi firehose as many vainly hoped for, we have instead has made world commodities like oil more expensive for ourselves. Thank you, Don Evans.)
To generalize, there are 4 groups: (I'm ignoring civilians, and troops from other countries because they aren't relavent in the discussion. If you will, consider them under catagory 1)
1) US soldiers
Local Goal: Take control of Iraq. Just following orders from suites above them.
Ultimate Goal in their minds: - Fighting terrorism.
Real Ultimate goal of gov. : Oil, opening new markets, establishing another puppit state in the region.
Means: Killing whomever opposes them. Even if it means killing civilians in the process (some credit though for trying to minimize civilian casualties).
2) Iraqi Police/Forces:
Local goal: Take control of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet.
Means: Helping the US Soldiers without directly killing civilians.
3) Iraqi resistance:
Local goal: Drive the USA out of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet but one without US dependance.
Means: Fighting US Soldiers and Iraqi police.
4) Terrorists:
Local goal: Drive the USA out of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet but one without US dependance.
Means: Fighting US Soldiers, Iraqi foces, AND MURDERING peacekeepers and employees of any nation participating in the rebuilding process (including Arab and Muslim nationals)
...........
The question of who to blame for all of this:
LOCAL Terrorists?
They didn't start this, but their actions are enough for them to deserve to die.
USA Soldiers?
They're just following an idiot's orders, but they think that they're really protecting us here at home. Sad truth is that they aren't. Their other job is to get the country stable. Many people don't want them there. Should they be blamed? Yes, partly though since their initial actions started this.
Current US Administration?
They put Saddam there in the first place. So they shouuld naturally take part of the blame for having to do this. though we all know that regime change isn't their main priority. They want the benifit$. More blame should be on them.
Iraqi Resistance?
From the perspective of someone who just wants peace ASAP even if it means that the country will depend on the USA, then yes, they are to blame because they're partly making this go on. However, from the perspective of an Iraqi who never asked for help, then No. They are just freedom fighters.
So, does the USA carry the whole blame? No
Are the Terrorists there innocent? No
Putting some blame on the USA does NOT imply agreeing or defending terrorism in Iraq let alone global terrorism.
And please don't say that the terrorists in Iraq WERE a threat to us here in the USA. Of course not. There were no links between them and Al-Qaidah. Sadly though, the terrorists who are a threat to us in the USA have found it easier to recruit NEW members from that area because now they share a hate towards us. This development creates a something of a paradox. While the soldiers went in to Iraq to fight global terrorism (falsely), they helped create and unite terrorists, thus making their presance now necassary.
The ultimate question now is should we continue to stay there risking the chance of creating more hate towards us (not just from Iraq) and killing more civilians on the way, in an effort to 'fight' terrorism, or should we pull out thus not making more enimies, but risking the chance of letting the mess we left bite us in the ass here at home.
The solution is not clear for me at this point. I was only clear on a prevention action so that this won't happen again. I wanted Bush out of office. This failed. My short term solution is to the smaller issues. I think we are responsbile for supplying more medical aid, clean water, and some power to the people.
.............
They allowed them to enter the country because they sharred similar goals. From our perspective, it isn't the best choice, but in their eyes, they want all the help they can get. The US gov. used this same tactic to fight/counter Iran and the USSR by helping Saddam and BL respectively.
Andy, you're still not looking at the source of the problem.
When bad activities by US troops causes a stir, it does not mean that terrorists are innocent. Terrorists actually believe that what they are doing is right. US troops mistakes cause so much contraversy because it's generally unacceptable by the public, against international law, and contradictory to what they are there for.
Andy, I don't want you to leave, and I don't think anyone else does.
While we disagree on many points, you are still one of those who can hold an argumentative discussion in a contructive and non-insulting manner too. You also don't insult (in an attempt to make an argument) then run to a corner and claim that you're "just kidding maan.. just kidding.." (Please excuse the slight switch of motive here Andy
) Anyway, back to you. I admire your patriotism and support for the troops and general care for the lives of non-American civilians too. Please don't take the critisizm of our country to heart. Being critical isn't like being insulting. When soccer analysts critisize Juve's defense, it's because people expected the highest it to be the best. Likewise with the US. We are world leaders in many ways, being under the microscope only means that much is expected from us. I don't know anyone here in the forums who doesn't at least want to visit the US.
1) US soldiers
Local Goal: Take control of Iraq. Just following orders from suites above them.
Ultimate Goal in their minds: - Fighting terrorism.
Real Ultimate goal of gov. : Oil, opening new markets, establishing another puppit state in the region.
Means: Killing whomever opposes them. Even if it means killing civilians in the process (some credit though for trying to minimize civilian casualties).
2) Iraqi Police/Forces:
Local goal: Take control of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet.
Means: Helping the US Soldiers without directly killing civilians.
3) Iraqi resistance:
Local goal: Drive the USA out of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet but one without US dependance.
Means: Fighting US Soldiers and Iraqi police.
4) Terrorists:
Local goal: Drive the USA out of Iraq.
Ultimate goal: Get country back on its feet but one without US dependance.
Means: Fighting US Soldiers, Iraqi foces, AND MURDERING peacekeepers and employees of any nation participating in the rebuilding process (including Arab and Muslim nationals)
...........
The question of who to blame for all of this:
LOCAL Terrorists?
They didn't start this, but their actions are enough for them to deserve to die.
USA Soldiers?
They're just following an idiot's orders, but they think that they're really protecting us here at home. Sad truth is that they aren't. Their other job is to get the country stable. Many people don't want them there. Should they be blamed? Yes, partly though since their initial actions started this.
Current US Administration?
They put Saddam there in the first place. So they shouuld naturally take part of the blame for having to do this. though we all know that regime change isn't their main priority. They want the benifit$. More blame should be on them.
Iraqi Resistance?
From the perspective of someone who just wants peace ASAP even if it means that the country will depend on the USA, then yes, they are to blame because they're partly making this go on. However, from the perspective of an Iraqi who never asked for help, then No. They are just freedom fighters.
So, does the USA carry the whole blame? No
Are the Terrorists there innocent? No
Putting some blame on the USA does NOT imply agreeing or defending terrorism in Iraq let alone global terrorism.
And please don't say that the terrorists in Iraq WERE a threat to us here in the USA. Of course not. There were no links between them and Al-Qaidah. Sadly though, the terrorists who are a threat to us in the USA have found it easier to recruit NEW members from that area because now they share a hate towards us. This development creates a something of a paradox. While the soldiers went in to Iraq to fight global terrorism (falsely), they helped create and unite terrorists, thus making their presance now necassary.
The ultimate question now is should we continue to stay there risking the chance of creating more hate towards us (not just from Iraq) and killing more civilians on the way, in an effort to 'fight' terrorism, or should we pull out thus not making more enimies, but risking the chance of letting the mess we left bite us in the ass here at home.
The solution is not clear for me at this point. I was only clear on a prevention action so that this won't happen again. I wanted Bush out of office. This failed. My short term solution is to the smaller issues. I think we are responsbile for supplying more medical aid, clean water, and some power to the people.
.............
They allowed them to enter the country because they sharred similar goals. From our perspective, it isn't the best choice, but in their eyes, they want all the help they can get. The US gov. used this same tactic to fight/counter Iran and the USSR by helping Saddam and BL respectively.
Andy, you're still not looking at the source of the problem.
When bad activities by US troops causes a stir, it does not mean that terrorists are innocent. Terrorists actually believe that what they are doing is right. US troops mistakes cause so much contraversy because it's generally unacceptable by the public, against international law, and contradictory to what they are there for.
Andy, I don't want you to leave, and I don't think anyone else does.
While we disagree on many points, you are still one of those who can hold an argumentative discussion in a contructive and non-insulting manner too. You also don't insult (in an attempt to make an argument) then run to a corner and claim that you're "just kidding maan.. just kidding.." (Please excuse the slight switch of motive here Andy
) Anyway, back to you. I admire your patriotism and support for the troops and general care for the lives of non-American civilians too. Please don't take the critisizm of our country to heart. Being critical isn't like being insulting. When soccer analysts critisize Juve's defense, it's because people expected the highest it to be the best. Likewise with the US. We are world leaders in many ways, being under the microscope only means that much is expected from us. I don't know anyone here in the forums who doesn't at least want to visit the US.
I don't toally agree with this, although I do agree with you post overall, not all of it, but most. I think its more those who pose a problem, not those who oppose. Of course the soldiers are going to kill civilians if they pose a threat. Thats like saying, well that guy has a gun and he is shooting at us, but we aren't going to shoot him b/c he is a civilian. The same thing happened in Vietnam, the Viet Cong mixed in with the civilians, so you could not tell who is good or who is bad.
So: if civilians pose a threat to the US soldiers lives, they will drop them like 3rd period English.
So: if civilians pose a threat to the US soldiers lives, they will drop them like 3rd period English.
Good post, Majed. But there's one critical piece you're missing, and that's the individual element ... the personal politics. A lot of your assumptions above are based on the notion that people exclusively act as cohesive interest groups.
Whenever you talk about reforming a country in a new image, Iraq included, you're talking about changing the establishment of who has power and influence and who doesn't. So a power struggle forms at the individual level... even at the most basic level of wondering how someone is going to feed their family in the new world order of things. We saw this in the fall of the Taliban Afghanistan -- tribal alliances formed, broke, and reformed around ones that were most advantageous to personal or tribal power ... or even survival.
There are Baathists who were so not out of loyalty to Saddam but out of the prerequisite that Baathist membership was required to hold down a respectable, educated job (doctors, etc.). Many of them are insurgents not so much to repel the Americans as much as they need to ensure that whatever new order is established, they have as good a life as possible. The U.S.'s public Baathist eradication policy immediately made us their sworn enemies.
Similarly, there's also a power struggle among other families and groups to retain or gain power as the balance is being reset.
Whenever you talk about reforming a country in a new image, Iraq included, you're talking about changing the establishment of who has power and influence and who doesn't. So a power struggle forms at the individual level... even at the most basic level of wondering how someone is going to feed their family in the new world order of things. We saw this in the fall of the Taliban Afghanistan -- tribal alliances formed, broke, and reformed around ones that were most advantageous to personal or tribal power ... or even survival.
There are Baathists who were so not out of loyalty to Saddam but out of the prerequisite that Baathist membership was required to hold down a respectable, educated job (doctors, etc.). Many of them are insurgents not so much to repel the Americans as much as they need to ensure that whatever new order is established, they have as good a life as possible. The U.S.'s public Baathist eradication policy immediately made us their sworn enemies.
Similarly, there's also a power struggle among other families and groups to retain or gain power as the balance is being reset.
Majed, I see the main source of the problem. But from that main source stems other problems which are just as wrong as the primary source. As you said not all the blame goes to the U.S., but still there is too much blame placed on the US for my liking, or in my opinion.
Actually, I bet a few people here would want me to leave, for different reasons.
I guess I'm discovering what its like to be a minority here, along with my time around Detroit. But sometimes the statements made really get beneath my skin, and they must be dealt with. I do respect other people's opinions, even though sometimes I find them completely absurd and too stereotypical.
It's like I'm fighting this war here alone......ironically similar to the real war. As you've probably heard before, this country is all I know, and I'm proud to be born and raised here. But you can see how some of the comments made can tick me off. But I applaud you, Majed, for understanding my point of view while sharring yours, and being open to the topic at hand.
Andy, I don't want you to leave, and I don't think anyone else does.
While we disagree on many points, you are still one of those who can hold an argumentative discussion in a contructive and non-insulting manner too. You also don't insult (in an attempt to make an argument) then run to a corner and claim that you're "just kidding maan.. just kidding.." (Please excuse the slight switch of motive here Andy) Anyway, back to you. I admire your patriotism and support for the troops and general care for the lives of non-American civilians too. Please don't take the critisizm of our country to heart. Being critical isn't like being insulting. When soccer analysts critisize Juve's defense, it's because people expected the highest it to be the best. Likewise with the US. We are world leaders in many ways, being under the microscope only means that much is expected from us. I don't know anyone here in the forums who doesn't at least want to visit the US.
While we disagree on many points, you are still one of those who can hold an argumentative discussion in a contructive and non-insulting manner too. You also don't insult (in an attempt to make an argument) then run to a corner and claim that you're "just kidding maan.. just kidding.." (Please excuse the slight switch of motive here Andy
) Anyway, back to you. I admire your patriotism and support for the troops and general care for the lives of non-American civilians too. Please don't take the critisizm of our country to heart. Being critical isn't like being insulting. When soccer analysts critisize Juve's defense, it's because people expected the highest it to be the best. Likewise with the US. We are world leaders in many ways, being under the microscope only means that much is expected from us. I don't know anyone here in the forums who doesn't at least want to visit the US.
I guess I'm discovering what its like to be a minority here, along with my time around Detroit. But sometimes the statements made really get beneath my skin, and they must be dealt with. I do respect other people's opinions, even though sometimes I find them completely absurd and too stereotypical.
It's like I'm fighting this war here alone......ironically similar to the real war.
As you've probably heard before, this country is all I know, and I'm proud to be born and raised here. But you can see how some of the comments made can tick me off. But I applaud you, Majed, for understanding my point of view while sharring yours, and being open to the topic at hand.The real war isnt being fought alone!! We have a strong coalition of the willing! What do you say to Poland? Spain?
Andy your so thin-skinned As a minority in the US I myself have undergone some rather absurd and contemptible experiences. Some of them I dealt with swiftly, others I chose to let slide off my back.
But at the end of the day I dont get bitter about it. The people who do what they do just dont know any better and hence their behavior is understandable. Theyre like babies- they cant ask for what they want- they have to annoy the hell out of you by crying, drooling all over your pants, chew on your shirt, etc.
To me, the same principle applies to the terrorists. They just dont know any better.
Andy your so thin-skinned
As a minority in the US I myself have undergone some rather absurd and contemptible experiences. Some of them I dealt with swiftly, others I chose to let slide off my back.But at the end of the day I dont get bitter about it. The people who do what they do just dont know any better and hence their behavior is understandable. Theyre like babies- they cant ask for what they want- they have to annoy the hell out of you by crying, drooling all over your pants, chew on your shirt, etc.
To me, the same principle applies to the terrorists. They just dont know any better.
++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
I guess I'm discovering what its like to be a minority here, along with my time around Detroit. But sometimes the statements made really get beneath my skin, and they must be dealt with. I do respect other people's opinions, even though sometimes I find them completely absurd and too stereotypical.
It's like I'm fighting this war here alone......ironically similar to the real war. As you've probably heard before, this country is all I know, and I'm proud to be born and raised here. But you can see how some of the comments made can tick me off.
I guess I'm discovering what its like to be a minority here, along with my time around Detroit. But sometimes the statements made really get beneath my skin, and they must be dealt with. I do respect other people's opinions, even though sometimes I find them completely absurd and too stereotypical.
It's like I'm fighting this war here alone......ironically similar to the real war.
As you've probably heard before, this country is all I know, and I'm proud to be born and raised here. But you can see how some of the comments made can tick me off.
++ [ originally posted by Emma ] ++
I wasnt even talking about that. That was a joke.
On many occassions I remember thinking you were not very considerate. But nevermind oh mighty one
I wasnt even talking about that. That was a joke.
On many occassions I remember thinking you were not very considerate. But nevermind oh mighty one
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