Tactics and Formations (14 Viewers)

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
of course. and i learned that rabiot, bonucci and morata can press, and since you suggest this with a straight face, you genuinely think that they are able to do that week in, week out. that's something i didn't know.

for me it's cuadrado, snacks, de ligt and loca. (chiesa too) and i haven't seen too much from zakaria. not a lot, especially if you consider that we tend to lose the ball easily and we're very easily countered with a high defensive line. that's something everyone hated with pirlo. and now suddenly everyone wants the high defensive line back with players who might be able to run but can't keep the ball.

high press makes sense if you can get the ball away from the opposition, actually keep the ball comfortably, avoid being countered and pass the ball forward. good luck with that if you have rabiot, bonucci (who can't tackle despite being a defender and the literally the last player i'd have to stop a counter with a famous ass tackle), morata who falls on the ground at the lightest touch, or players like pellegrini, sandro, mds et al who need no introduction. with morata, cuadrado or snacks, trying to exploit counters when you have spaces look like a better approach to me.
I put Bonucci in the opposite group, which is in line with your opinion. Please don't put someone else's words into my mouth.

All that talk is useless tho. Your assumption is that it takes something extraordinary to set up a basic press or counter press which is not true. Just go and see yesterday's Genoa vs Inter where the home side did well to keep Inter at bay for long periods of time. Genoa is a hopeless team that changed coaches twice already this season and somehow a new coach comes in and almost in no time (3/4 weeks?) sets up a framework for such a hopeless side. It takes training and some "synchronization" of the players' movement, it has to be the teams effort (hint: not really what you saw under Pirlo last season).

The issue here is Allegri IMO because he simply throws away tools from his toolbox. Counter press is a tool and a top team these days needs to use it sometimes. This Juve never uses it and it's down to the coach. I expect much more from a top coach like him. If you're fine with the setup, then we simply have different expectations and that's it.
The current setup is simply too defensive for my liking, which is exactly the opposite of kamikaze Pirlo. Give me someone in between and I'll be happy.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
27,868
No, just makes no sense. Whatever makes you feel good tho. This is where it ends :baus:
i don't even understand what was your problem. multiple posters (you, rus, mike) posted players they thought were able to press, so i replied considering all those reactions. it makes perfect sense, you just don't understand it and created something out of nothing.
 

MikeM

Footballing Hipster celebrating 4th place with Tuz
Sep 21, 2008
12,451
of course. and i learned that rabiot, bonucci and morata can press, and since you suggest this with a straight face, you genuinely think that they are able to do that week in, week out. that's something i didn't know.

for me it's cuadrado, snacks, de ligt and loca. (chiesa too) and i haven't seen too much from zakaria. not a lot, especially if you consider that we tend to lose the ball easily and we're very easily countered with a high defensive line. that's something everyone hated with pirlo. and now suddenly everyone wants the high defensive line back with players who might be able to run but can't keep the ball.

high press makes sense if you can get the ball away from the opposition, actually keep the ball comfortably, avoid being countered and pass the ball forward. good luck with that if you have rabiot, bonucci (who can't tackle despite being a defender and the literally the last player i'd have to stop a counter with a famous ass tackle), morata who falls on the ground at the lightest touch, or players like pellegrini, sandro, mds et al who need no introduction. with morata, cuadrado or snacks, trying to exploit counters when you have spaces look like a better approach to me.
You have to run more of a balance. For me, Bonucci is good at anticipation when the opponent plays hurried passes. He is good at playing the trap.

He is bad at winning headers in the box and contesting in the box. I wouldn't say we have to press 90 minutes. I would say we should counter press when we lose the ball high. If they break the press we can go to the low block. Right now we just go straight to the low block.

Sometimes the forwards press but the line doesn't move up with the team, so the midfield has to cover too much ground and the press dies.

Even Arthur won a ball at midfield today and created a goal. You can create a lot of goals from that. These are still professional footballers, they can counter press 5-10 times a match, come on. Bonucci was good with both Sarri and Mancini who have similar defensive tactics.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
27,868
...These are still professional footballers, they can counter press 5-10 times a match, come on.
and if they are dribbled by, then it's a counter, and then it turns out we're too slow. happened countless times with pirlo and sarri, didn't it. i remember you ranting about it multiple times and for a good reason. remember that? we said we were the most naive and disorganized juventus ever. high press, high defensive line sounds great, but the tradeoff is clear vulnerability at the back, especially with our relatively slow and not physical enough squad.
 

MikeM

Footballing Hipster celebrating 4th place with Tuz
Sep 21, 2008
12,451
and if they are dribbled by, then it's a counter, and then it turns out we're too slow. happened countless times with pirlo and sarri, didn't it. i remember you ranting about it multiple times and for a good reason. remember that? we said we were the most naive and disorganized juventus ever. high press, high defensive line sounds great, but the tradeoff is clear vulnerability at the back, especially with our relatively slow and not physical enough squad.
Pirlo was disorganized, yes. The front pressed and the backline turned and sprinted to their box in the opposite direction.

Like I said, you need a balance. All I hear is the midfield is shit. Well then you're telling me they're supposed to set attack from their 18 yard? They never will.

It's easier if they win it higher, like Arthur today. We should be able to find some type of balance. Both Sarri and Pirlo could have a higher GD than Allegri. You might give up 1 goal here and there but score 3 more.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
27,868
Pirlo was disorganized, yes. The front pressed and the backline turned and sprinted to their box in the opposite direction.

Like I said, you need a balance. All I hear is the midfield is shit. Well then you're telling me they're supposed to set attack from their 18 yard? They never will.

It's easier if they win it higher, like Arthur today. We should be able to find some type of balance. Both Sarri and Pirlo could have a higher GD than Allegri. You might give up 1 goal here and there but score 3 more.
sarri had pjanic and ronaldo, pirlo had chiesa and ronaldo too. imagine having vlahovic for the whole season. we clearly play a more open, more aggressive football with him. morata as a cf was underwhelming. and i get the argument about playing higher, but for that you need players who can keep the ball and pass confidently. who can do that regularly for full 90 minutes, twice a week? pjanic and pirlo could, marchisio and vidal could, pogba and khedira could. arthur can't, wes can't, rabiot lol, locatelli might be able to do that.

as for high pressing, it's baffling how inconsistent the defensive stats of our players are. we have more or less the same tactics yet midfielders' defensive stats are like a roller coaster. even our low defensive line can't perform consistently, imagine if we started to press high regularly. we looked ridiculous with those tactics with pirlo, i don't see any reason why would it work consistently now. and the key is consistency. arthur is simply inconsistent. he never was instructed to give away the ball when playing deep, yet he does. he's probably given the same tactical tasks this season, and sometimes he finishes the match with 6-7 recovered balls, sometimes with zero. rabiot played a very strong match against verona, was straight out shit against torino in the same position. these players are very far from the level we were used to. and it's been the same with most starters for years, for the 3rd coach in a row. danilo is consistent, not sure about the rest, either because the low sample size (for example loca is fine this year, we need more seasons to be sure) or because of injuries that obviously compromise continuity.

my mantra is the same: fix the squad. not sure whether any of these players could start for our 2017 team, and we spent gazillions since cardiff.

anyway, it looks like an interesting read, you might wanna give it a go:
https://analyticsfc.co.uk/blog/2022...isk-reward-of-progressive-passes-in-build-up/
 

MikeM

Footballing Hipster celebrating 4th place with Tuz
Sep 21, 2008
12,451
sarri had pjanic and ronaldo, pirlo had chiesa and ronaldo too. imagine having vlahovic for the whole season. we clearly play a more open, more aggressive football with him. morata as a cf was underwhelming. and i get the argument about playing higher, but for that you need players who can keep the ball and pass confidently. who can do that regularly for full 90 minutes, twice a week? pjanic and pirlo could, marchisio and vidal could, pogba and khedira could. arthur can't, wes can't, rabiot lol, locatelli might be able to do that.

as for high pressing, it's baffling how inconsistent the defensive stats of our players are. we have more or less the same tactics yet midfielders' defensive stats are like a roller coaster. even our low defensive line can't perform consistently, imagine if we started to press high regularly. we looked ridiculous with those tactics with pirlo, i don't see any reason why would it work consistently now. and the key is consistency. arthur is simply inconsistent. he never was instructed to give away the ball when playing deep, yet he does. he's probably given the same tactical tasks this season, and sometimes he finishes the match with 6-7 recovered balls, sometimes with zero. rabiot played a very strong match against verona, was straight out shit against torino in the same position. these players are very far from the level we were used to. and it's been the same with most starters for years, for the 3rd coach in a row. danilo is consistent, not sure about the rest, either because the low sample size (for example loca is fine this year, we need more seasons to be sure) or because of injuries that obviously compromise continuity.

my mantra is the same: fix the squad. not sure whether any of these players could start for our 2017 team, and we spent gazillions since cardiff.

anyway, it looks like an interesting read, you might wanna give it a go:
https://analyticsfc.co.uk/blog/2022...isk-reward-of-progressive-passes-in-build-up/
Fair enough. I'm not really infatuated with the idea of possession. My main thing with the counter press stuff is that I find it's actually easier to defend that way sometimes. The roles are easier, you just hunt the ball.

I think it's actually harder to defend deep because of VAR in the box. You need a lot more calmness and skill nowadays.

I find the rare times we've actually done that this year, the opponent just hits it out of bounds or straight to us.

In terms of the deep block and launching counters. We saw it work vs. Chelsea the first time and then the second time we got destroyed. Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit. I see the merit in the long balls in terms of risk/reward, rarely does it hurt you.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
27,868
...My main thing with the counter press stuff is that I find it's actually easier to defend that way sometimes. The roles are easier, you just hunt the ball...
hunting the ball looks easy indeed, but it's actually not that obvious. imagine any 1v1 situation which depends on who makes the first move and how well it is executed. if you hunt the ball and mistime the tackle/interception, you're left with an opposition player behind you, running towards your goal, potentially creating an other 1v1 when bonucci is at the receiving end. (one of the reasons vidal was a 2in1 player, not only able to go forward, but to defend high enough without getting easily dribbled by.) and it's also exhausting; we don't have too many runners, especially with snacks dead, do we. you're also more easily stretched when you press high. yeah, verona or sassuolo can afford to do it, partly because they are a quicker team with their feet. and they won't care too much about results either, they are usually in the middle of nowhere on the table with zero pressure from the management or by their wage bill for that matter to finish at a cl place.

i see where you're coming from, but i don't think at all we have a squad built to gegenpress. "rabiot, arthur and bonucci can press" can be true for seconds and specific game situations, you can even find 1 or 2 instances per match to use as an evidence, but on the long run, used as a tactical weapon? i just don't see it buddy, and unfortunately history is on my side too

sometimes i wish max was fired, a fan favorite flavor of the month coach was bought in, and we'd finally see the true rabiot week in, week out lol. same shit under the 3rd coach, and we're still keep talking about the coach and dacdics, playing 17 year olds, playing wide and/or deploying vanilla 4-3-3 without wingers, bumping up possession with avg passers. i mean who are we fooling mate. this is damage control at its purest form, and vlahovic is surely a good fix. all eyes on bene&bini.

as for the chelsea away game, it's an italian team that won't give a shit about a game when the progression is already secured. it just never happens. italians' progress is always a bumpy ride in cup competitions, it's like they adore to suffer. we might see an italian team acting otherwise on multiple occasions in our lifetime if we're lucky enough.
 

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