Tactics and Formations (28 Viewers)

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

Klin said:

Oh, i missed this post apparently. Lets see what Klin tried to annoy me about this time shall we.

1) Your first point, is offcourse extremely weak. We had an excellent 4312 last season, and Allegri prefers to use a TQ. As your stalking should remind you, i preferred the 4312 and especially 4231 over the 352, formations on their own.
If we dont get an AM, 352 suits our players best. If we get an AM, i'll gladly see us switch back to 4312.

2) "the formation is a joke". Ah yes, the nonsensical hatred of people like you because "its 352". Wake up call butterscotch. Plenty of formations see their centrebacks have the ball for periods of time. When our midfield is fit we'll see alot less of that, but at the moment its not really problematic

3) Your third point, against is of Klin Quality. A failed attempt at trolling and annoying a poster who put efford into explaining, with "lol doesnt work haha" type of response. Does Malteese internet gets paid per character usage ? Cause you have developped quite a habbit of very useless short negative posts that tell nothing.
I have explained what i've seen from Sandro. "savior from 352" i havent said. What i said is that the offensive game of Sandro and especially cuadrado, can make this 352 turn out completely different then what you are expecting to get.

"hypocrite". You make a hobby from stalking my posts, twisting words worse then The Cusp, baiting with borderline insulting posts, and actually, what do you contribute ? Nothing

Klin on Juventuz :

Marotta is shit, he does everything wrong
Conte is boring, he cant adapt and subtitute
Allegri is wrong, he has no spine
All our transfers are wrong, and we pay too much
352 is wrong
Whatever zach said is wrong, and i'll respond with a post as short and negative as possible.

Been like fucking years like this. Always trolling, spewing negative responses or your trademark " :sergio:

".

What are you doing here ? WHY are you here ? WHAT do you contribute apart from some borderline homosexual posts with the scandinavian guys ?

You are becomming a stalking version of Bjerkness. But at least he has something to say about politics. You ? Nothing. Go away.

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pavluska said:

SS players, typically are good in finding space in the center, between the lines or between defenders and move into those. When they receive the ball there, they'll attempt an action or trough ball. They need to cover limited distance in an explosive way.

Wingers need to keep the formation wide. They need to understand when to time their forward runs behind the wide midfielder or fullback, they need to be able to pace for quite a longer distance in a zone in wich defenders are more eager to faul, they need to be able to get around players for a cross, or cut inside for a shot or pass. They need to know when to come inside and when not to avoid clogging the center.

SS played as wingers rarely works. Because they are accustomed to play in the center, and will be rendered much less dangerous when pushed out, or will naturally drift inside and clogg the center. Barcelona for example, fixes this by deliberatly keeping Messi deep, with Neymar drifting wide as he naturally plays somewhere between LW and SS, with Suarez playing a pure CF that seeks space on the middle right side.

When you have a true centerforward, you need actual wingers. 2 AM's behind it can work. 2 SS used as wingers, allmost never work.

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Hist said:

3-5-2 doesnt need a regista. Its one of the formations that can work with one.

Pirlo was at his best in a 4-3-3. Seeking out the wingers with crafty passes.

The 3-5-2 found a way to provide extra cover for pirlo. However, it limited his creativity cause there arent wingers to launch at, and we deployed a cm and a fullback on the wings, both without solid offensive game, save licht's runs behind the defence occasionally.

3-5-2 took away alot of creativity. But it provided an extremely solid formation, that was balls hard to break down.

In a 4312 Pirlo has even lesser wide players to pass to, but it has alot of runs from the front 3. However, the reason he was not at his best, is because he was significantly decaying with age.
Back in the day at milan, Pirlo was at his most effective in a 4321/4312.
Pirlo became a liability, became much much slower on the ball. Shadow of the maestro in 2006, and the player who rolled back the years 2011 to 2014.

3-5-2 Doesnt requite that regista. it requires the Cm's to have excellent passing. Pogba, Khedira and Marchisio all have excellent passing range and ability. it now has a big offensive treath from the wingbacks, and a genuine danger in the box that will receive tons of crosses

This 3-5-2 will be very different then the previous one. But it will be very interesting.

pavluska · Aug 26, 2015

There are midfield wingers, and there are wing-forwards. There are also AMs who play out wide.

In a perfectly balanced 433, you typically have a CF, a SS/WF, and a midfield winger (a winger you'd classify as a midfielder a la Cuadrado) or a LAM/RAM (Draxler).

Playing with three strikers only works if you're a really good team that can get away with it and/or one maintains a lot of possession. Otherwise, that's unbalanced.

WFs are second strikers. That's Soccer 101. Lavezzi, Alexis Sanchez, Neymar, Ronaldo are all forwards. The likes of Cuadrado and Camoranesi hug the line more and defend more. And the AM types playmake obviously.

And Dybala has played as a WF before. It's not something new to him. In fact, even while playing as a F9 for Palermo last season, he drifted towards the flanks often.

Bianconero81 · Aug 26, 2015

pavluska said:

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Adrian said:

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3-5-2 lacks creativity, even with fucking Cuadrado and Sandro bombing forward and dropping balls into the box. Predictable as fuck. This is not the EPL, and we aren't WBA. There has to be more tactical versatility to our game plan. We need a fucking AM, and that is non negotiable.

Yes, I know we didn't have an AM last year and still made it to the CL final, but that is the rule, not the exception. Must we continue to play guys out of position? Must we adapt our formation to suit a loan signing who might not even be here next fucking year? Fuck the 3-5-2 and its proponents. It should never be our primary formation. Get Allegri the AM that he craves.

Post Ironic · Aug 26, 2015

Bianconero81 said:

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3-5-2 lacks creativity, even with $#@!ing Cuadrado and Sandro bombing forward and dropping balls into the box. Predictable as $#@!. This is not the EPL, and we aren't WBA. There has to be more tactical versatility to our game plan. We need a $#@!ing AM, and that is non negotiable.

Yes, I know we didn't have an AM last year and still made it to the CL final, but that is the rule, not the exception. Must we continue to play guys out of position? Must we adapt our formation to suit a loan signing who might not even be here next $#@!ing year? $#@! the 3-5-2 and its proponents. It should never be our primary formation. Get Allegri the AM that he craves.

It's the rule that teams who don't have AMs make the CL final? :shifty:

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

pavluska said:

Lavezzi, Sanchez, Ronaldo and Neymar, are players that operate down the wing. They know when to cut inside, but will start to play wide to open the opponent up. None of those players will be seen often in the center for a long time.
Same logic applies to players like robben ribery, cuadrado, etc. These are all wingers. They play wide and its their game

Playing a natural central ss wide, does not work. They will automatically try to remain in the center, and are alot useless when pushed wide. These days there are ALOT of wingers, and actually surprisingly few actual SS's

Examples of these are : Van Persie, Rooney, Aguero, Tevez,jovetic, Dybala. Players that need to be in the center and cannot play wide

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Bianconero81 said:

You will be amongst the first to chance tone if we do well with our new wingbacks

Bianconero81 · Aug 26, 2015

Kieselguhr Kid said:

Nope. The exception is us making the CL Final while playing a certain Vidal out of position in the AM role. Just because it happened last year, doesn't make it the rule, but rather the exception. We should give Allegri that AM so we have enough tactical versatility. No AM = Getting owned in Europe this season. We will be predictable, because even though we have added pace in abundance, neither Sandro or a brainless Cuadrado are creative outlets.

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Zacheryah said:

Big IF Muchacho. If we don't get that AM, I see us failing in Europe, and by failing, I mean group stage exit, not even Round 2.

Post Ironic · Aug 26, 2015

Bianconero81 said:

I know bro. You just kind of worded it backwards, and made it sound the opposite.

I agree with you, by ze way.

Bianconero81 · Aug 26, 2015

Kieselguhr Kid said:

Im still waking up

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

Bianconero81 said:

Nah, we could play 4312 on the counter in europe btw. No need to overreact

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And i'd like an AM, in case i didnt repeat this yet this week

pavluska · Aug 26, 2015

I don't know who the reps are from, but thanks.

Zacheryah said:

lol, you really have next to zero knowledge of the sport.

Lavezzi played as a SS in a 3412/352 for Napoli, Sanchez played as a SS directly behind Di Natale in his last season with Udinese, Ronaldo played as a SS in a 442 when Real lined up in that formation last season, and check out how many games Neymar played centrally for Brazil: http://www.transfermarkt.com/neymar/nationalmannschaft/spieler/68290/verein_id/3439

We're not talking about CF's here, lol.

van Persie, Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, and Jovetic are all players that played out wide a plethora of times. They are all second strikers/forwards. Only one of them is a CF: van Persie. And he became a CF later in his career.

SS's can always play out wide as WFs. They're attackers. Guys like Cuadrado, Ribery, Navas are classified as midfielders, not attackers. They're different types of wingers. They hug the touchline more, defend more, and score less.

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And I just realized you think Tevez played as a CF for us last season, lol.

Bianconero81 · Aug 26, 2015

pavluska said:

I don't know who the reps are from, but thanks.

lol, you really have next to zero knowledge of the sport.

Lavezzi played as a SS in a 3412/352 for Napoli, Sanchez played as a SS directly behind Di Natale in his last season with Udinese, Ronaldo played as a SS in a 442 when Real lined up in that formation last season, and check out how many games Neymar played centrally for Brazil: http://www.transfermarkt.com/neymar/nationalmannschaft/spieler/68290/verein_id/3439

We're not talking about CF's here, lol.

van Persie, Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, and Jovetic are all players that played out wide a plethora of times. They are all second strikers/forwards. Only one of them is a CF: van Persie. And he became a CF later in his career.

SS's can always play out wide as WFs. They're attackers. Guys like Cuadrado, Ribery, Navas are classified as midfielders, not attackers. They're different types of wingers. They hug the touchline more, defend more, and score less.

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And I just realized you think Tevez played as a CF for us last season, lol.

I was the one that repped you

You seem like an interesting character :beer:

If you want to check who repped you, just go to setting at the top right hand corner of your scree. There, you can see your points (for infractions and the like), who repped you, and your reputation power.

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

We ARE talking about cf's here, that was the entire point.

I'm not debating that natural wide forwards cannot play in the center. Thats something we see often. For example Coman currently playing centrally, despite him more suited to play as a left winger.

Van Persie (later part of his career), Rooney, Aguero, Tevez and Jovetic are all good examples of SS that lost a bit part of their game when played out wide. They are all lethal and ideally playing in the center. None of them were remotely as effective when played wide with the intention to stretch the play.

Rooney is actually quite the example of a player that was an absolute blast as a cf or ss. But not remotely as good when forced out wide.

Wich remains my clear point. Players who arent natural wingers, will lose alot of their game when played wide. If they are not the most important, a coach can decide to do it anyway cause it suits better players. But if they are important,he wont.

Example is Tevez. At Argentina, they tend to bring him as a rightwinger. Not remotely as effective, but with Aguero and Messi, he's not the big player. At juventus however, Tevez was critical. So both Conte and Allegri used him exclusively as a SS, save a handfull of exceptions late in the game.

Another example is Cavani. Should be the CF. Not at PSG, cause they got Zlatan. So he's mostly playing down the wing. Now he doesnt do that badly, but its not the huge danger cavani can be.

Dybala is a pure SS. He doesnt have those cross over abilities. he'll go wide and he'll lose a very big part of his game.

Wingers playing centrally can work. SS playing wide will nearly allways take away a big part of the players performance.

pavluska · Aug 26, 2015

Bianconero81 said:

Cool, thanks. :beer:

I only see the comment/smilies though, not the names of the reppers.

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Zacheryah said:

I've seen your posts here before, and I know you'll just keep going on and on even if it's detrimental for you.

I've no idea where the talk of "CFs" is coming from. None of Tevez, Neymar, Ronaldo, Sanchez, etc...and the person of topic, Dybala....are CFs. You're using "CF" and "SS" as synonyms when they're two different types of strikers. This really is Soccer 101.

And second strikers playing out on/from the wing isn't some new concept. The "seconda punti" in Zona Mista and its variants played out from the left. I'm sure you're familiar with Del Piero.

WFs don't hug the touchline. They cut inside. That's why they don't lose all their "supernatural powers," lol.

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

pavluska said:

My point is that SS players lost a big part of their game when they have to play wide. Same goes for ST's or CF's, but i was referring to SS's.
Wingers tend to do well in the center if they arent too one dimensional.

Plenty of times, SS who arent carrying the team gets played wide out of position, because it suits a better player, and because while losing a part of their game, what remains isnt bad either.

But the example at hand here, Dybala, is a typical player that can only operate in the center. He's wasted completely out wide.

pavluska · Aug 26, 2015

Zacheryah said:

My point is that SS players lost a big part of their game when they have to play wide. Same goes for ST's or CF's, but i was referring to SS's.
Wingers tend to do well in the center if they arent too one dimensional.

Plenty of times, SS who arent carrying the team gets played wide out of position, because it suits a better player, and because while losing a part of their game, what remains isnt bad either.

But the example at hand here, Dybala, is a typical player that can only operate in the center. He's wasted completely out wide.

Zacheryah · Aug 26, 2015

Your last two posts were about mocking and insulting , instead of actually debating the point.

I take you have no decent arguments. So who's double are you ?

Post Ironic · Aug 26, 2015

Double post.

Post Ironic · Aug 26, 2015

Zach you're being a little disingenuous here. Of course Dybala's "best" position is as an SS or forward, playing in a central role... but this doesn't mean he can't play on the wing. He did so at times for both Palermo and his previous club Instituto. Is he better in the centre? Yes. But you're acting like it's impossible for him to play on the wing, which it isn't at all, he's entirely capable of it. And regardless of what Allegri says, he's also capable of playing behind a front 2 as a CAM, as he also done this at previous clubs.

Now the question isn't whether he can play those roles, or whether his best position is SS or not. The answer is yes to both of those questions. The main question is whether the sacrifice of playing him in a position where he is slightly less effective is worth it for a formation potentially better-suited to the rest of the team. And Allegri may decide yes to that, now that we have Cuadrado and Sandro. Cuadrado is better as a RWF than a RWB, and Sandro is better as a LB than a LWB. Mandzukic is definitely better suited to a 3 man frontline than a 2 man one.

But... and this is the one thing people are neglecting when placing Dybala on the Left in a 4-3-3. Dybala has not played LWF, and is more suited to a free role as RWF, in a 4-3-3, as it allows him to cut in and shoot with his left. So essentially, you are correct in that a 4-3-3 with Dybala on the left and Cuadrado on the right would not work very well, but not because Dybala cannot play on the wing, he most certainly can, it's more so because he is very one-footed, and with the type of winger he would be, the Right wing suits him much more, and is the only wing he's actually played on in the past.

Morata is a different story. He actually played LWF quite a few times for Real Madrid (and a large number of times more for Castilla). Mostly as a sub with the first team. But in his full-league debut in a Clasico, when Ronaldo was out in 2013, he was man-of-the-match playing on the LW with Benzema as the CF, in a 2-1 Real Madrid win. He was brilliant. He dominated Alves. He tracked back well, he crossed well, he attacked well. He did everything well as a Left Winger.

He has the clear ability to play LWF, and to play it very well. Which means we have two options at LWF in Morata + Coman. And two options at RWF with Cuadrado + Dybala. I could easily see us playing 4-3-3 at times with Mandzukic in the centre of Morata and Cuadrado/Dybala. You can't keep denying that both of these players can play quite well on the wing. They're very versatile young players and both have shown they can play on the wing. Is it their ideal position? No. But it's not like they're disasters out wide. Not in the slightest. And it may end up being that if Mandzukic is firing on all cylinders we shall see Morata and Dybala out wide in a 3 man front at times. Or even behind Mandzukic in a 4-3-2-1.

What I see, even if we don't get a CAM, is a lot of tactical versatility in this squad. We'll see 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2, 4-3-2-1, and 3-5-2 at times. I really doubt we're going to see 3-5-2 in the vast majority of our matches as you seem to imply.

You're pigeonholing players way too severely. The only two forwards on our team (assuming Llorente leaves) that are really restricted to a single position are Zaza and Llorente. They're CFs. Hard-working ones, but they are not versatile. Dybala and Morata and even Coman are all extremely versatile along the front-line, and we could easily play forward lines of:

Dybala/Cuadrado--Mandzukic--Morata

Dybala/Cuadrado--Morata--Coman

----Dybala---Morata---
--------Mandzukic----

---Dybala---Coman---
-----Morata----

Xperd · Aug 26, 2015

He is pigeonholing players way too severely as it fits his agenda obviously.
He should keep his pills ready once we move to a 4 man backline.

And pavluska :delpiero:

welcome ! Great intro

Klin · Aug 26, 2015

Zacheryah said:

Your posts are extremely hard to understand. Please bear with me a little.

1) Yet we haven't provided him with a trequartista. What is your point?

2) Hey, butterscotch. Not many teams have brainless defenders like Chiellini with the most amount of touches in their squad. Of course it's a joke, which is also why you said we shouldn't play a 3-5-2 in Europe, because this gets exposed even more. At least try and stay consistently ignorant.

3) Can you explain what do you want to mean by "gaping hole"?

4) I don't have to make any efforts of twisting any words myself, Zachy boy. You are doing a damn good job yourself for me.

5)

Marotta is shit, he does everything wrong - WRONG
Conte is boring, he cant adapt and subtitute - WRONG AGAIN
Allegri is wrong, he has no spine - NEVER SAID THAT :lol:

All our transfers are wrong, and we pay too much - PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DID I SAY THAT. JUST HEAD TO DRAXLER'S THREAD FOR EXAMPLE. :lol:

352 is wrong - I DIDN'T SAY WRONG, I SAID IT'S A JOKE
Whatever zach said is wrong, and i'll respond with a post as short and negative as possible - IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM THAT YOU ARE WRONG A LOT OF TIMES

Tactics and Formations (28 Viewers)

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