Syrian civil war (6 Viewers)

[Bisco]

It's the religions (and I don't mean the Islam religion only) that are making people back warded, not these leaders. This is not the case just in Arabic countries, there are hundreds like these.. And everyone is responsible of educating themselves, and I don't mean by that with the schools only. If you give yourself only to religion, and bring 15 kids, and eat 16 meals a day, well then you will naturally get bad leaders. Blaming everything on the government is easy isn't it? If they had educated themselves and chose to be better persons, they wouldn't let these criminals to lead them.

It's harsh to tell these and I am aware of it, I know some might get insulted, but seriously, isn't this the case??

the bolded part is not entierly wrong nor is it entirely right and please let me explain this point bec i went thru it on the 28th and yesterday.

as u r aware the major stands that happened here in egypt all toke place on firdays at least the massive ones before the shit hit the fan ont he 28th and i went to the mosque near my place of residence and i was sickened to find out that the imam's in the mosque was saying a friday speech that has nothing what so ever to do with what was happening in the country!!! yes he is a govermental clerk and they have strict rules from above but when people from yr own blood are killed and butchered by the government then its time to be the role model imam's should set for people. i believe if some one really believe in god and knows his or her religon soo well like these imam's who preach us about god and his mercy then they should'nt fear to speak the truth. instead they feared the rulers instead of fearing god. these imam's are role models for people and they should be the first ones to speak the truth when every other person is afraid for his own life.

this is example one or form one of how these bastards ruled us.

example two is yesterday how the islamic body here came out and said its a religous obligation for egyptains to vote yes for just fixing certain points in the constitution and started playing on the egypt is an islamic nation i,e has its dominant islamic identity and saying no will make it possible for egypt to be a country with no religous identity off course this is all bs that was fed to us for years and years. the coptics in egypt are aware the dominant religion is islam and they have lived under it for years now. yes they were'nt treated fairly in all cases but non the less this is a totally new chapter and as proven by the revolution it self there was never any bad blood between the two religion but in fact it was mubaraks regime that made these frictions happen so they can control the country like a bunch of sheep.

religion and specially islam never preaches people to keep the truth inside but it preaches its believers to always speak the truth even if its against yr rulers. so as i mentioned int he beginning yr statement is not 100% wrong nor is it 100% right but yes these regimes used religion to keep us under the hood.

 

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[Bisco]

i hope the syrians pull this off, this regime is in my opinion the worst of the lot or on par with egypt and libya if not worse. i am fully aware syria is massively monitored and in some cases they never heard of the word rights of speech so one bad mouth on bashar and u have there secret intellegence come to the front door. god bless these people they r up against a lot i just hope this does'nt turn out like libya bec honestly one bloody bastard is enough. i hope this is the beginning of the end for all these scum from bashar all the way to ghadaffi just for the sake of the people who deserve a lot better. sadly the arabs come top of the list when it comes to corruption as apposed to many centuries back when we were the pioneers in a lot of fields.

 

[ReBeL]

i hope the syrians pull this off, this regime is in my opinion the worst of the lot or on par with egypt and libya if not worse. i am fully aware syria is massively monitored and in some cases they never heard of the word rights of speech so one bad mouth on bashar and u have there secret intellegence come to the front door. god bless these people they r up against a lot i just hope this does'nt turn out like libya bec honestly one bloody bastard is enough. i hope this is the beginning of the end for all these scum from bashar all the way to ghadaffi just for the sake of the people who deserve a lot better. sadly the arabs come top of the list when it comes to corruption as apposed to many centuries back when we were the pioneers in a lot of fields.

 

[Snoop]

the bolded part is not entierly wrong nor is it entirely right and please let me explain this point bec i went thru it on the 28th and yesterday.

as u r aware the major stands that happened here in egypt all toke place on firdays at least the massive ones before the shit hit the fan ont he 28th and i went to the mosque near my place of residence and i was sickened to find out that the imam's in the mosque was saying a friday speech that has nothing what so ever to do with what was happening in the country!!! yes he is a govermental clerk and they have strict rules from above but when people from yr own blood are killed and butchered by the government then its time to be the role model imam's should set for people. i believe if some one really believe in god and knows his or her religon soo well like these imam's who preach us about god and his mercy then they should'nt fear to speak the truth. instead they feared the rulers instead of fearing god. these imam's are role models for people and they should be the first ones to speak the truth when every other person is afraid for his own life.

this is example one or form one of how these bastards ruled us.

example two is yesterday how the islamic body here came out and said its a religous obligation for egyptains to vote yes for just fixing certain points in the constitution and started playing on the egypt is an islamic nation i,e has its dominant islamic identity and saying no will make it possible for egypt to be a country with no religous identity off course this is all bs that was fed to us for years and years. the coptics in egypt are aware the dominant religion is islam and they have lived under it for years now. yes they were'nt treated fairly in all cases but non the less this is a totally new chapter and as proven by the revolution it self there was never any bad blood between the two religion but in fact it was mubaraks regime that made these frictions happen so they can control the country like a bunch of sheep.

religion and specially islam never preaches people to keep the truth inside but it preaches its believers to always speak the truth even if its against yr rulers. so as i mentioned int he beginning yr statement is not 100% wrong nor is it 100% right but yes these regimes used religion to keep us under the hood.

You gave very good example, and for this reason religion shouldn't be used as a tool for politics. You said it yourself Imams talking about politics in the mosques, where they should talk about God and Prophets.. You think there are no crazy imams? There are imams that say good things about people who pay them good money, you think we don't have imams here who praise the president? so they are telling the truth just because they are imams? There was an imam who gave a fatwa for Qaddafi so that someone kills him, don't you think that is retarded? Hate him or not, you think this is the way to punish criminals? which age are we living?

You think I don't hate on what's going on in this country? I hate it more than everybody in this forum, and I always keep talking about the negative parts of the country. But the people are not ready for change, or democracy. I know that might sound rubbish but it is the case, just like you said it in your example, the same here would ask for Islamic nation, and the country will go more backward and that not just because Islam is bad, that is not my point, but the reason is because religions are the most dangerous weapons, tools.. The ones will come will use it the way they want it. Just like Iran and Suadia. Yes I want changes in this country too, but it should start from the root, from the people, education, then the government..

 

[Snoop]

i hope the syrians pull this off, this regime is in my opinion the worst of the lot or on par with egypt and libya if not worse. i am fully aware syria is massively monitored and in some cases they never heard of the word rights of speech so one bad mouth on bashar and u have there secret intellegence come to the front door. god bless these people they r up against a lot i just hope this does'nt turn out like libya bec honestly one bloody bastard is enough. i hope this is the beginning of the end for all these scum from bashar all the way to ghadaffi just for the sake of the people who deserve a lot better. sadly the arabs come top of the list when it comes to corruption as apposed to many centuries back when we were the pioneers in a lot of fields.

Aren't you contradicting yourself with those two lines? You say it is worse than Gaddafi, and you are wishing them down? How will that happen?people will give them bunch of roses and they will step down?

 

[Fred]

Snoop, if you're talking about Qaradawi. What he said exactly, was someone should kill him to stop the bloodshed in Libya, because he is 100% responsible for all thats been happening in the past 4 weeks, is it not true, that things will probably come to an end if Gedaffi gets killed. Or what exactly do you propose us to do? "Be civil" about it and let him butcher us and kill us, FFS he's killed 11,000 people already in the past 4 weeks alone!!

Simple logic, the only way to stop this evil is for someone who can get to him, to put a bullet in his head. If you don't think one head to save the lives of the thousands more that he's going to kill is logical enough, then i have to question how much value you put on human life?

 

[Snoop]

Snoop, if you're talking about Qaradawi. What he said exactly, was someone should kill him to stop the bloodshed in Libya, because he is 100% responsible for all thats been happening in the past 4 weeks, is it not true, that things will probably come to an end if Gedaffi gets killed. Or what exactly do you propose us to do? "Be civil" about it and let him butcher us and kill us, FFS he's killed 11,000 people already in the past 4 weeks alone!!

Simple logic, the only way to stop this evil is for someone who can get to him, to put a bullet in his head. If you don't think one head to save the lives of the thousands more that he's going to kill is logical enough, then i have to question how much value you put on human life?

That wasn't my point at all. Someone wearing religious clothes, hats whatever you call it, and presenting himself as a religion/religious figure, simply can't order people to kill a man, it is wrong! He is not a fuckin commander of an army, same goes for the clowns who gave fatwa to Salman rushdie, or the ones who orders people to stone "sinful" women, THEY SIMPLY CAN'T!! Who the fuck they think they are?

If a politician says that, or if you say that this is another story. Those people in that position simply can't! Even if they are right or if they think that way.

 

[Bisco]

You gave very good example, and for this reason religion shouldn't be used as a tool for politics. You said it yourself Imams talking about politics in the mosques, where they should talk about God and Prophets.. You think there are no crazy imams? There are imams that say good things about people who pay them good money, you think we don't have imams here who praise the president? so they are telling the truth just because they are imams? There was an imam who gave a fatwa for Qaddafi so that someone kills him, don't you think that is retarded? Hate him or not, you think this is the way to punish criminals? which age are we living?

You think I don't hate on what's going on in this country? I hate it more than everybody in this forum, and I always keep talking about the negative parts of the country. But the people are not ready for change, or democracy. I know that might sound rubbish but it is the case, just like you said it in your example, the same here would ask for Islamic nation, and the country will go more backward and that not just because Islam is bad, that is not my point, but the reason is because religions are the most dangerous weapons, tools.. The ones will come will use it the way they want it. Just like Iran and Suadia. Yes I want changes in this country too, but it should start from the root, from the people, education, then the government..

yes some imam's r soooooooooooooo pro the government even though they are fully aware of how corrupt the leaders are, but also int he same time there are imam's out there who get prisoned, get tortured, get kicked out of the country for speaking the truth not bec they believe in it soo much but bec they believe in it and fear god. snoop i'm fully aware of yr fears and trust me not just you but the majority of us fear this not bec our religion is strict ( if u take a min to think about it clearly and properly) but bec bro who will enforce these teachings?!?! are they people who r aware of religion perfectly, or are they people who use religion for a totally different agenda and as a means of controlling people. these two bro are very different. i should let u know that being a leader is sooooooooooooooooooo much responsibility religion wise snoop, infact there are a lot of hadiths by the holy prophet that state that the first to be judged are the leaders and if they were fair and just or corrupt like the scum we had.

yes i agree with u i dont want politics and religion to mingle together, but that does'nt mean i dont want egypt to be identified as an islamic, arab, and african nation. i dont want to follow the iranian and saudi example nor do i want to be turkey either. no disrespect to any nation but i dont think its right. egypt is a coptic islamic nation and that is sth the entire world knows including the religious figures who admit egypt was a coptic country and then the muslims spread islam and the arabs settled in egypt. any way this is my point of view and i'm once again not saying u are wrong u r free to have yr opinion and i respect it but i hope u try to find out more about the real rulings of leadership in islam bec u will find out that we r yet to have some one in the arab world who follows these clear guidelines. saudi does'nt follow them, iran does'nt follow them either.

as for people not being ready for democracy, i think thats a very un-fair assumption snoop, if countries dont start making forward moves even if at risk then when will we ever be like the rest of the developed countries?!?! if we all think this way bro then we might as well never complain about all the un-justice we have to live with in our home land and accept defeat and accept being humilated both in our countries and abroad. i really and completely disagree with u in this point. if we r not ready for democracy its not the people's fault snoop its these corrupt governments that have corrupted every institution that builds people who are aware of there rights not the people's fault.

and finally before i move to yr second post, the karadawi fatwa came at a time where a murderer ( thats the word u can use to describe a lunatic who uses full military power to kill people with no weapons) went on a killing roll. yes killing is wrong i agree but in this case no bro bec its in prevention of more blood shed as we are witnessing now. i lost track of the body count in libya that in it self tells u how big a ma scare it is over there.

Aren't you contradicting yourself with those two lines? You say it is worse than Gaddafi, and you are wishing them down? How will that happen?people will give them bunch of roses and they will step down?

bro the way i see it, people have to choices there is no third. u live in this region snoop and u know this more than me these leaderships want to take the ruling chair with them to the grave i,e they will not give it up to any one. so u r left with options 1 - accepting this and never complaining about how corrupt and sorry for this labelling but retarded level of thinking we have reached or u go to option 2

option 2-- u do what tunisia started, followed by egypt and now libya and yemen, yes people are falling by the hundreds but its a price that has to be paid for people to get there rights. in tunisia just like egypt and libya every one old, young, rich, poor, educated, illetrate, christian, muslim, atheist women ,men all went out bec they believe they deserve better and i'm pretty sure deep inside u know u deserve better, u deserve to have yr rights, u deserve to live in peace and with no discrimination bec u yr religion is not islam or bec u believe in a certain sect of islam, u deserve to be able to reach un limited hieghts as a person, u deserve to have dreams and get the chance to ful fill them.


if people dont aspire for this, then its better just wish death come to us sooner than to leave with no dignity like all of us have been living for the past 100 years.


note: Deneb has an opinion against revolutions, and i respect his opinion and i understand his point of view bec what he said happened but the only difference i have with deneb is i believe this is the beginning of a brighter and better future for us, yes it will come slowly, yes it will be chaos for a while, but at the end of the day all this chaos and uncertainity at least gives u hope that may be we will get sth better than the rulers we've had sucking our souls and blood for the past 30 years ( in egypts case) and forever in syria's,and libya's case.

also please note, i'm not insulting u or belittling yr opinion i respect it a great deal but i simply dont agree with yr point of view that this is written in stone that we have to live under such one dimensional systems.

sorry i dragged on and on i got carried away

 

[Fred]

That wasn't my point at all. Someone wearing religious clothes, hats whatever you call it, and presenting himself as a religion/religious figure, simply can't order people to kill a man, it is wrong! He is not a fuckin commander of an army, same goes for the clowns who gave fatwa to Salman rushdie, or the ones who orders people to stone "sinful" women, THEY SIMPLY CAN'T!! Who the fuck they think they are?

If a politician says that, or if you say that this is another story. Those people in that position simply can't! Even if they are right or if they think that way.

There are few Imam's nowadays who aren't government agents these days unfortunately, so one should use his sense to differentiate between them. Some of them still have their credibility though, and those of course have a right to issue a fatwa imo. I'd take their words over a politicians any day of the week and three times on a friday.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

props to you snoop, i hope and pray for you and your family's safety; i thought myself reckless but i cant believe all the people promoting chaos, and as you said it's no the leaders holding the people backwards it is their culture, ignorance, and the false sense that once this or that leader is gone all will be fixed.

 

[Fred]

Spoken by someone whose probably never lived in an Arab country.

So you're saying if it wasn't for us being so backward, we'd be living good, nice, peaceful and free lives under the regimes of the likes of Hosni, Bashar and Geddaffi?

 

[ReBeL]

props to you snoop, i hope and pray for you and your family's safety; i thought myself reckless but i cant believe all the people promoting chaos, and as you said it's no the leaders holding the people backwards it is their culture, ignorance, and the false sense that once this or that leader is gone all will be fixed.

Nobody says that it will be 100% right when the dictators are gone, but it is the first step to remove those who stops everybody from progressing. What changes in culture and ignorance that you are indicating at?

 

[Bisco]

props to you snoop, i hope and pray for you and your family's safety; i thought myself reckless but i cant believe all the people promoting chaos, and as you said it's no the leaders holding the people backwards it is their culture, ignorance, and the false sense that once this or that leader is gone all will be fixed.

deneb dont u think that its the leaders who have made these people reach the stage of being completely ignorant, and backwards?? i dont know if u ever saw the arab educational system but to put it in simple terms its a joke and hence people have become programmed to accept un-justice, and corruption. i dont know if u have ever been to egypt but if u do i'm pretty sure u noticed the level we've reached too once u get off the plane.

yes there is a chance we might not have the 100% democracy all these rev's are asking for but why do u think its not worth a try to give it a go?? i honestly want to hear yr point of view.

by the way when u posted in the egypt thread u did mention a few things and yes they happened but i need to tell u that the people are not the same now as they were before, i mean now people are really getting involved, people are really taking this chance and gripping it bec they know we will never have another chance like this to finally have a say in how this country is run, and the values we once had but thanks to a lot of interference and personal greed these values were washed away a long with a lot of of other things. thats why i completely believe this systems have fed us the giving up mentality to the degree we accepted a lot of stuff. now that mubarak's regime is out let me tell u that we were programmed to believe that egypt was a piss poor country only to find out that we as a country have enormous resources but sadly we never even saw these resources bec mubarak and co were busy piling up the cash. there are a lot of crimes that have taken place to citizens they r soooooooo harsh its even scary reading the documents that state what happen to people to this day are not found dead or alive.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

yep thats exactly what i said i know you're angry coz the guy is killing your brothers and sisters but believe it or not theres always worse

 

[Fred]

Deneb, please tell me what wrong did the Libyan people do, before all the fighting started, when we went out on protests in the 16th and 17th of last month, what wrong did these people do? or are you telling me, even going out on protests is wrong, and Gedaffi was right to kill them?

Same thing is happening in Syria, people are going out to protest, and already they killed four of them, this isn't some kind of armed rebellion, but since they're killing protesters, thats exactly what its going to become, and Bashar will only have himself to blame then.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

deneb dont u think that its the leaders who have made these people reach the stage of being completely ignorant, and backwards?? i dont know if u ever saw the arab educational system but to put it in simple terms its a joke and hence people have become programmed to accept un-justice, and corruption. i dont know if u have ever been to egypt but if u do i'm pretty sure u noticed the level we've reached too once u get off the plane.

yes there is a chance we might not have the 100% democracy all these rev's are asking for but why do u think its not worth a try to give it a go?? i honestly want to hear yr point of view.

by the way when u posted in the egypt thread u did mention a few things and yes they happened but i need to tell u that the people are not the same now as they were before, i mean now people are really getting involved, people are really taking this chance and gripping it bec they know we will never have another chance like this to finally have a say in how this country is run, and the values we once had but thanks to a lot of interference and personal greed these values were washed away a long with a lot of of other things. thats why i completely believe this systems have fed us the giving up mentality to the degree we accepted a lot of stuff. now that mubarak's regime is out let me tell u that we were programmed to believe that egypt was a piss poor country only to find out that we as a country have enormous resources but sadly we never even saw these resources bec mubarak and co were busy piling up the cash. there are a lot of crimes that have taken place to citizens they r soooooooo harsh its even scary reading the documents that state what happen to people to this day are not found dead or alive.

my good friend, it is not hosni who makes people cheat or choose the easy way it is also not hosni who encourages people to oppress each other or view others as inferior, and if someone had emerged with a clear plan and enough backing to get the majority of egyptians to be behind me i would be all for it there is no easy fix to this, and unfortunately as you're seeing removing hosni wasnt it theres a lot of work and sacrifice to be made. And my point is much of that work should have been done in the preparatory phase to alleviate much of the growing pains your country is and will be experiencing. I am just not a big fan of the unknown like i said before i would not commit myself or my family to the machinations of a few idealist young'uns who have yet to experience life, you might call me jaded, a cynic, or even an old man but it's my opinion shaped by my experiences and education. nevertheless Forza egypt and all arabs.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Deneb, please tell me what wrong did the Libyan people do, before all the fighting started, when we went out on protests in the 16th and 17th of last month, what wrong did these people do? or are you telling me, even going out on protests is wrong, and Gedaffi was right to kill them?

Same thing is happening in Syria, people are going out to protest, and already they killed four of them, this isn't some kind of armed rebellion, but since they're killing protesters, thats exactly what its going to become, and Bashar will only have himself to blame then.

i have to leave now but i will gladly finish this up with you later hang in there buddy

 

[Snoop]

I replied you with a pm, check it Ahmed

 

[Snoop]

Spoken by someone whose probably never lived in an Arab country.

So you're saying if it wasn't for us being so backward, we'd be living good, nice, peaceful and free lives under the regimes of the likes of Hosni, Bashar and Geddaffi?

If it wasn't so backwarded, you wouldn't get the likes of Hosni, bashar and Gaddafi. That's the point, can you deny it?

 

[ReBeL]

The regime thugs inside the Umawi mosque