Steve Jobs RIP (1 Viewer)

Martin

Martin

Senior Member
#143
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#143
Gordon Bombay said:
Isn't that the whole point?
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Gordon Bombay said:
If society lines up to get shot in the face, you can't really blame the guy pulling the trigger. He's just giving folks what they want.
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It's a cynical view, though. We are saddled with a lot of cognitive and emotional baggage from our entire evolutionary history and we're susceptible to many things. To say that this is what people want is to make a susceptibility into a purpose. To take a dramatic example (and who doesn't like provocation?) Hitler too was giving people what they wanted because he made them feel good about belonging to such a unique and important nation at a time of economic crisis etc etc.

Manipulation is a more accurate description.
 
GordoDeCentral

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
#144
Apr 14, 2005
70,038
#144
Martin said:
It's a cynical view, though. We are saddled with a lot of cognitive and emotional baggage from our entire evolutionary history and we're susceptible to many things. To say that this is what people want is to make a susceptibility into a purpose. To take a dramatic example (and who doesn't like provocation?) Hitler too was giving people what they wanted because he made them feel good about belonging to such a unique and important nation at a time of economic crisis etc etc.

Manipulation is a more accurate description.
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oh shit he went there :p
 
Enron

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
#145
Oct 11, 2005
75,456
#145
Martin said:
It's a cynical view, though. We are saddled with a lot of cognitive and emotional baggage from our entire evolutionary history and we're susceptible to many things. To say that this is what people want is to make a susceptibility into a purpose. To take a dramatic example (and who doesn't like provocation?) Hitler too was giving people what they wanted because he made them feel good about belonging to such a unique and important nation at a time of economic crisis etc etc.

Manipulation is a more accurate description.
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To some extent. However all modern commercialism is driven by manipulation whether tobacco companies, oil companies, banks, food companies, agribusiness, Microsofts "I'm a PC" campaign, etc. Everyone does this, some just do it better.

In the end it's up to people to be better consumers.
 
Enron

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
#146
Oct 11, 2005
75,456
#146
Deneb said:
dont mind that either, but like jack pointed out its the avalanche of beareavement
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The simple solution is not to fall in line. Worrying about Apple is not on the top of my To Do list.*


*As I type from a MacBook and attempt to network the household printer to my parents' new iMac.:D
 
Martin

Martin

Senior Member
#148
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#148
Gordon Bombay said:
To some extent. However all modern commercialism is driven by manipulation whether tobacco companies, oil companies, banks, food companies, agribusiness, Microsofts "I'm a PC" campaign, etc. Everyone does this, some just do it better.
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It goes without saying that if other companies were able to replicate the same cult mentality and the same fanboys they would do it without thinking twice.

But that's like saying a one time killer is the same as a serial killer in kind, just less successful cause he got caught sooner. Doesn't make the crime equal does it.

Gordon Bombay said:
In the end it's up to people to be better consumers.
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Yes, but how? Advertising is affecting us in ways we don't understand, that not even the advertisers understand. So how are we going to smarten up against these techniques to undermine our sense of will and submit to the influence of the advertiser? There is a responsibility here, a power being abused.
 
Enron

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
#149
Oct 11, 2005
75,456
#149
Martin said:
It goes without saying that if other companies were able to replicate the same cult mentality and the same fanboys they would do it without thinking twice.

But that's like saying a one time killer is the same as a serial killer in kind, just less successful cause he got caught sooner. Doesn't make the crime equal does it.



Yes, but how? Advertising is affecting us in ways we don't understand, that not even the advertisers understand. So how are we going to smarten up against these techniques to undermine our sense of will and submit to the influence of the advertiser? There is a responsibility here, a power being abused.
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Sure I understand the trouble behind everything you say. I agree that there is a problem from Apple to prescription drugs to the sugar refiner association of America (which is way more destructive to society that techie trinket salesmen).

What's the solution Martin? How do we avoid falling in? How can the consumers confront the puppeteer?

Let's spend some time answering those questions, then asking them to others. That's way more productive than sitting back, watching the world burn, while muttering "stupid fanboys" under our breath.
 
Martin

Martin

Senior Member
#150
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#150
Gordon Bombay said:
Sure I understand the trouble behind everything you say. I agree that there is a problem from Apple to prescription drugs to the sugar refiner association of America (which is way more destructive to society that techie trinket salesmen).

What's the solution Martin? How do we avoid falling in? How can the consumers confront the puppeteer?

Let's spend some time answering those questions, then asking them to others. That's way more productive than sitting back, watching the world burn, while muttering "stupid fanboys" under our breath.
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Would you be prepared to put the issue as bluntly as: capitalism is the problem, what do we do about it?

That's what many voices are saying. I haven't really formed my own opinion yet. But this suggests that the solution has to come from some kind of a global scale leftist movement. Which sounds so utopian it makes me roll my eyes so far back they hurt.
 
Enron

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
#151
Oct 11, 2005
75,456
#151
Martin said:
Would you be prepared to put the issue as bluntly as: capitalism is the problem, what do we do about it?

That's what many voices are saying. I haven't really formed my own opinion yet. But this suggests that the solution has to come from some kind of a global scale leftist movement. Which sounds so utopian it makes me roll my eyes so far back they hurt.
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Well, capitalism is merely the mechanism. THE MECHANISM, to put it bluntly. There is no non-capitalist economy on earth. Even nations like China and Vietnam operate within the mechanism. Moving to anything other than capitalism is not a option, because such a thing doesn't exist. Once we admit that we can start thinking about ways to make it more fair, more sustainable, less racist, etc.

I view socialism as a system of wealth distribution. However it still relies on principles of capitalism. Only nations take the place of corporations and the aim is still profit however in a "fairer" less competitive market.
 
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