i don't know how can you tolorate these boring days .
can you tell me when serie A get starts?
can you tell me when serie A get starts?
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Stadio Delle Alpi (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
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Man Juve is paying 22m € for the stadium. Plus they'll spend millions and millions for the project. Who will pay it? Do you want us to sell half of the team? It's business. There's this project. To do that we have to do it. Business talking it's a good move. We will do it.
My grandfather still says that when he was young Juve's 2nd jersey was pink.... the best ever...... and he cant even see this multi-colored shirts.... but that's the price we have to pay for progress and ECONOMICAL CRISIS! Like i said, Tele+ will not give us a lot of money from 2003. We have to chance something to continue to be the best. That's the best soluction? Ok, if it's the best one and if it's the best for the team, i'm down with it. JUVE first, then tradition. Juve with economical problems is worse than a "FIAT" Delle Alpi Stadium or something like that! IMO.
But hey.. that's my opinion. I'd love to call it GAETANO SCIREA stadium, but.. if a sponsor is the only way.. ok!
My grandfather still says that when he was young Juve's 2nd jersey was pink.... the best ever...... and he cant even see this multi-colored shirts.... but that's the price we have to pay for progress and ECONOMICAL CRISIS! Like i said, Tele+ will not give us a lot of money from 2003. We have to chance something to continue to be the best. That's the best soluction? Ok, if it's the best one and if it's the best for the team, i'm down with it. JUVE first, then tradition. Juve with economical problems is worse than a "FIAT" Delle Alpi Stadium or something like that! IMO.
But hey.. that's my opinion. I'd love to call it GAETANO SCIREA stadium, but.. if a sponsor is the only way.. ok!
Question: how many times have we reached 30,000 in Champions League and Coppa Italia last season?
Another question: How many English stadiums got the capability of 30,000?
Another question: do you think they stupid? If they do it, they do it to get more money, not to loose them.
Another question: The last word will be said in 2003, cause the works will start there. Thats' just an updated to the project for the stadium. Maybe they'll change the number, but it will be around 30,000, not big.
Another question: Do you know what's the number 1 problem in Italy? Families doesnt go to the stadiums because of hoolygans. By reducing the capability, they'll add more security and families will back to the stadium. Not hoolygans who HAS to be paid by Juve and who IMO makes only noise. At least in Italy. ONLY REAL FANS will enter. Only real fans will pay. Max security. Max show. Max money for Juventus. That's the idea. Like it or not.
Another question: How many English stadiums got the capability of 30,000?
Another question: do you think they stupid? If they do it, they do it to get more money, not to loose them.
Another question: The last word will be said in 2003, cause the works will start there. Thats' just an updated to the project for the stadium. Maybe they'll change the number, but it will be around 30,000, not big.
Another question: Do you know what's the number 1 problem in Italy? Families doesnt go to the stadiums because of hoolygans. By reducing the capability, they'll add more security and families will back to the stadium. Not hoolygans who HAS to be paid by Juve and who IMO makes only noise. At least in Italy. ONLY REAL FANS will enter. Only real fans will pay. Max security. Max show. Max money for Juventus. That's the idea. Like it or not.
The stadium could actually earn us money if the management does it's job right.
If we reduce the capacity to 30.000 and move the stands towards the pitch, a whole lot of space comes available behind the stands. Rent that to shops or whatever and the stadium will earn us money all year 'round. Even in the off-season when a stadium is usually a financial burden.
And there's so many things we can do with the ground around the stadium as well instead of leaving it a 'useless' carpark!
If we do it right, we will be able to attract families who are coming to spend a day in the stadium/shopping mall/cinema and carnaval at the carpark! We make it more attractive for families and less attractive for hooligans.
I wouldn't be afraid to take a loan to accomplish this! I'm absolutely positive that the stadium will be able to earn us money in the future. There are many opportunities for a long-term plan, I just hope the management sees that as well...
If we reduce the capacity to 30.000 and move the stands towards the pitch, a whole lot of space comes available behind the stands. Rent that to shops or whatever and the stadium will earn us money all year 'round. Even in the off-season when a stadium is usually a financial burden.
And there's so many things we can do with the ground around the stadium as well instead of leaving it a 'useless' carpark!
If we do it right, we will be able to attract families who are coming to spend a day in the stadium/shopping mall/cinema and carnaval at the carpark! We make it more attractive for families and less attractive for hooligans.
I wouldn't be afraid to take a loan to accomplish this! I'm absolutely positive that the stadium will be able to earn us money in the future. There are many opportunities for a long-term plan, I just hope the management sees that as well...
Antonio, you're killing me. 
It's not all about Coppa Italia or CL. Most games we play are Serie A games and we have an average of 40 000 spectators there.
Where's the point? We are an italian team, not an english. And I have no clue why you mention this anyway. We have a lot of fans in Torino and I'm sure we could get an average of 50 000 in a beautiful new stadium.
For me not only the money counts and I'm sure that I'm not alone. A good support is what counts aswell and you can't buy good support with your beloved money, Mr. €or$a.
That's not a question.
Making absolutely no sense to me.
I'm against hooligansm, but I'm for more real fans. We don't need a silent stadium with thousands of happy families sitting in their chairs and drinking orange juice. We need good, noisy support. But no hooligans, of course.
And could you please explain why you believe that reducing the seize of the stadium will keep hooligans out !?
Sorry, but families aren't real fans. Don't get me wrong, but a happy family with five kids doesn't travel to Lecce to support Juventus. They don't scream with passion like the Fighters.
Again, don't get me wrong. Families should not be afraid by the true supporters, they should come into the stadium.
But we need fans, true fans - ultras.
"Money" is your favourite word, am I right?
It's not all about Coppa Italia or CL. Most games we play are Serie A games and we have an average of 40 000 spectators there.
Where's the point? We are an italian team, not an english. And I have no clue why you mention this anyway. We have a lot of fans in Torino and I'm sure we could get an average of 50 000 in a beautiful new stadium.
For me not only the money counts and I'm sure that I'm not alone. A good support is what counts aswell and you can't buy good support with your beloved money, Mr. €or$a.
That's not a question.
Making absolutely no sense to me.
I'm against hooligansm, but I'm for more real fans. We don't need a silent stadium with thousands of happy families sitting in their chairs and drinking orange juice. We need good, noisy support. But no hooligans, of course.
And could you please explain why you believe that reducing the seize of the stadium will keep hooligans out !?
Sorry, but families aren't real fans. Don't get me wrong, but a happy family with five kids doesn't travel to Lecce to support Juventus. They don't scream with passion like the Fighters.
Again, don't get me wrong. Families should not be afraid by the true supporters, they should come into the stadium.
But we need fans, true fans - ultras.
"Money" is your favourite word, am I right?
from the premiership… 16 are over 30k and 4 are below 30k
Arsenal – 38.5k (new stadium 60k)
Aston Villa – 43.5k
Birmingham City – 31k
Blackburn – 32k
Bolton – 29k
Charlton – 26.5k
Chelsea – 42.5k
Everton – 41k (new stadium 55k)
Fulham – 21k
Leeds – 40.2k
Liverpool – 45k (new stadium 55k)
Manchester City – 35k (new stadium 55k)
Manchester United – 67k
Middlesborough – 35k
Newcastle – 52k
Southhampton – 33k
Sunderland – 49k
Tottenham – 36.2k
WBA – 27.5k
West Ham – 36k
average today = 38k
average when stadiums complete = 41k
All the major clubs are around 50, and that is where i think we should be looking, for me the ideal size would be 55k.
Arsenal – 38.5k (new stadium 60k)
Aston Villa – 43.5k
Birmingham City – 31k
Blackburn – 32k
Bolton – 29k
Charlton – 26.5k
Chelsea – 42.5k
Everton – 41k (new stadium 55k)
Fulham – 21k
Leeds – 40.2k
Liverpool – 45k (new stadium 55k)
Manchester City – 35k (new stadium 55k)
Manchester United – 67k
Middlesborough – 35k
Newcastle – 52k
Southhampton – 33k
Sunderland – 49k
Tottenham – 36.2k
WBA – 27.5k
West Ham – 36k
average today = 38k
average when stadiums complete = 41k
All the major clubs are around 50, and that is where i think we should be looking, for me the ideal size would be 55k.
Man.. i mean the model is to make stadiums like English ones where families go to see their fav clubs. To do that, we gotta see English stadiums. Maybe 30,000 is not so much, but in general to make stadiums ONLY for football and with not 100,000 fans helps security and helps to create a good atmosphere (well.. except for Barcelona when they can have everything!). The idea is to make the stadium as a museum. For families. And with a great athmosphere like if it's a theatre with a show. We can discuss hours about 30,000 or 40,000 or 50,000. Everybody can say his thing, but.. the fact is that Juve wants: A) A SECURE STADIUM - b) A GREAT ATHMOSPHERE AND NOT THE ONE WE GOT NOW, WHERE IT LOOKS LIKE A CIMITERY (no matter the number of fans) - c) FAMILIES AND EXPECIALLY VIPS GOING TO SEE THE GAMES OF JUVE LIVE. If 30,000 is the right number, then i'm cool with it. We are all talking without knowing things enought. There are studies and projects about it. They are studying it from months, and they'll continue doing it by calling the best experts available. So.. i'm positive. I love the whole concept of Stadium for the families! 30,000 fans will still create a great athmosphere. Or 40,000, if they'll find the right design to support them. It doesnt matter the number. It matter the athmosphere, the pitch close to the fans and the families-thing, imo.
Man.. 1) this aint MY project. - 2) I said only that if they studied it enought and if that's the best thing, i'm cool with it. - 3) Money are everything, man. For a soccer club. I mean... Giraudo-Bettega-Moggi gotta **** with money. We can dream and be romantics. They cant. They work is hard, man. So i'm cool with them. They for sure aint fools, so.. they'll do the best. I'm not taking position here, i'm just saying they have reasons to do/think what they are doing. There are a lot of experts under this project.
LOL, man! One thing is to controll 70,000 fans. Another one is to cut the curva by making it all chairs, to separe the fans of the two teams better (by cutting capability) and to controll just 30,000 fans. With the same number of police and security. If you go to an italian stadium, you see 1 policeman for every 1000 fans. Or more. Plus the curve are the complete chaos, with guys rolling weed, selling drugs, starting fights with other fans, launching bangala's, etc.. Juve just want to cut this "shit". You know what i mean? And the only way is to make stadiums like English ones. All chairs, all sitted. OH.. AND THE REAL FANS ARENT 90% OF THE ONES IN THE CURVE's, imo! Real fans are the ones who arrive from Puglia, Sicily, etc.. Or the Turin ones who support the team and who actually care about the game MORE than about weed, drugs and the opponent's fans. Make it a theater. Cut those morons. Double the number of security. Separe the fans of the two teams better. Surround the stadium with cinemas and things for the family. Then we will have a decent scenary for a great team. I'm disgusted by italian stadiums! No atmosphere (but only in the top games, 5-6 a year), full of morons, guys jumping in without paying, guys beefing with police, families scared, no females (but females who looks like males, lol), stadium always empty... we gotta change it. FOOTBALL IS A SHOW. ART. A THEATER. I LOVE THE CONCEPT.
I TOTALLY DISAGREE! First of all 90% of the fans you called "ultrà" doesnt pay the ticket. And that a perfect italian scandal. Then most of them doesnt even follow the game. And, just the last thing, Juve pays them tickets for a lot of transfers. So if they are REAL fans, they'll just pay the ticket and enter the stadium, supporting Juve. You can do it without smoking weed and without beefing with police too. Am i wrong? Nobody will deny them to enter the stadium with a regular ticket to support Juve. OH.. AND LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING. You named Lecce? Lecce is one of the cities in Italy with the most number of Juve clubs in Italy. Just to let you know! 90% of Juve CLUBS (so.. ULTRAS) are from non-Turin places. You said nobody will go to Lecce to see Juve? MAN. LOL. Last year i was in Lecce. Only 2000 ULTRAS from JUVE CLUBS (doesnt mean from TURIN. From Juve club in general) and HALF OF THE STADIUM WAS SUPPORTING JUVE! AGAINST LECCE. LECCE GUYS! It's like that everywhere. Even in Milan! Those 2.000-3.000 fans from clubs will continue to go in trasfert. And the stadium will continue to be almost half for Juve! I dont understand why you making it JUVE vs ULTRAS. It's Juve vs morons! Who ruin stadiums. Real ULTRAS will even support the team. And Juve will support them. But the good ones. The REAL ones.
No. But it's the only one who cares if you have to manage millions and millions of €. In my dreams it's all different. But life aint a dream. By having dreams you risks to finish like Fiorentina, Lazio, Roma, etc.. you know what i mean? There's no more room for romanticism in football. Sad. My grandfather told me it everytime. It was different with Sivori, with Charles. All another era. Not teams are BUSINESS. FINANCE. MERCHANDISE. Etc.. MULTI-MILLIONAIRE contracts, etc.. the whole plot of the stadium will costs more than 50-60m €! I'm sure it will be more! Arent those "MONEY"? Do you want to ignore them? You cant! To "CHANGE" Delle Alpi you gotta count money. Nothing is gratis. You know what i mean?
I agree with you. In my dreams Juve got a GAETANO SCIREA stadium with 60,000 fans screaming Juve and scaring opponents. But... who pays the players? who pays the stadium? Who pays everything? Where are the money? You know what i mean?
Man.. 1) this aint MY project. - 2) I said only that if they studied it enought and if that's the best thing, i'm cool with it. - 3) Money are everything, man. For a soccer club. I mean... Giraudo-Bettega-Moggi gotta **** with money. We can dream and be romantics. They cant. They work is hard, man. So i'm cool with them. They for sure aint fools, so.. they'll do the best. I'm not taking position here, i'm just saying they have reasons to do/think what they are doing. There are a lot of experts under this project.
++ [ originally posted by JKane ] ++
And could you please explain why you believe that reducing the seize of the stadium will keep hooligans out !?
And could you please explain why you believe that reducing the seize of the stadium will keep hooligans out !?
I TOTALLY DISAGREE! First of all 90% of the fans you called "ultrà" doesnt pay the ticket. And that a perfect italian scandal. Then most of them doesnt even follow the game. And, just the last thing, Juve pays them tickets for a lot of transfers. So if they are REAL fans, they'll just pay the ticket and enter the stadium, supporting Juve. You can do it without smoking weed and without beefing with police too. Am i wrong? Nobody will deny them to enter the stadium with a regular ticket to support Juve. OH.. AND LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING. You named Lecce? Lecce is one of the cities in Italy with the most number of Juve clubs in Italy. Just to let you know! 90% of Juve CLUBS (so.. ULTRAS) are from non-Turin places. You said nobody will go to Lecce to see Juve? MAN. LOL. Last year i was in Lecce. Only 2000 ULTRAS from JUVE CLUBS (doesnt mean from TURIN. From Juve club in general) and HALF OF THE STADIUM WAS SUPPORTING JUVE! AGAINST LECCE. LECCE GUYS! It's like that everywhere. Even in Milan! Those 2.000-3.000 fans from clubs will continue to go in trasfert. And the stadium will continue to be almost half for Juve! I dont understand why you making it JUVE vs ULTRAS. It's Juve vs morons! Who ruin stadiums. Real ULTRAS will even support the team. And Juve will support them. But the good ones. The REAL ones.
No. But it's the only one who cares if you have to manage millions and millions of €. In my dreams it's all different. But life aint a dream. By having dreams you risks to finish like Fiorentina, Lazio, Roma, etc.. you know what i mean? There's no more room for romanticism in football. Sad. My grandfather told me it everytime. It was different with Sivori, with Charles. All another era. Not teams are BUSINESS. FINANCE. MERCHANDISE. Etc.. MULTI-MILLIONAIRE contracts, etc.. the whole plot of the stadium will costs more than 50-60m €! I'm sure it will be more! Arent those "MONEY"? Do you want to ignore them? You cant! To "CHANGE" Delle Alpi you gotta count money. Nothing is gratis. You know what i mean?
I agree with you. In my dreams Juve got a GAETANO SCIREA stadium with 60,000 fans screaming Juve and scaring opponents. But... who pays the players? who pays the stadium? Who pays everything? Where are the money? You know what i mean?
Yeah. Average 38k.
Btw English are already 2 steps later. I mean.. they already got secure stadiums, built only for football. And fans and families are back to love football. We are at 0. Let's start. Then we will see. We will have room enought to make Delle Alpi a 100,000 stadium, imo. If we cut atletic shit. Let's start. That's just a propose made 1 year before the start of the works. That's the best one right now. Maybe he said 30,000 but it'll be 40. Or 35. Maybe they're still working on the project. Let's not speculate about the number of fans!
THE ONLY GREAT THING IMO IS THE FIGHT AGAINST DIRTY ULTRAS (MORONS), AND THE FAMILIES-THING. GREAT. A THEATER. LOVE THAT. Then numbers... who knows? It's still 2002. Feel me?
Btw English are already 2 steps later. I mean.. they already got secure stadiums, built only for football. And fans and families are back to love football. We are at 0. Let's start. Then we will see. We will have room enought to make Delle Alpi a 100,000 stadium, imo. If we cut atletic shit. Let's start. That's just a propose made 1 year before the start of the works. That's the best one right now. Maybe he said 30,000 but it'll be 40. Or 35. Maybe they're still working on the project. Let's not speculate about the number of fans!
THE ONLY GREAT THING IMO IS THE FIGHT AGAINST DIRTY ULTRAS (MORONS), AND THE FAMILIES-THING. GREAT. A THEATER. LOVE THAT. Then numbers... who knows? It's still 2002. Feel me?
I don't like the concept of english stadiums. Ok, security is important, very important, but I would never agree to forbid bengals, big banners, etc.
These things are part of the game, part of the fans, part of Juventus.
I don't quite get the part where you try to explain something about Barcelona. Barcelona have a big stadium, but hardly any atmosphere. Fans aren't singing like in the San Siro (example), there are no bengals, there are no big banners. Yes, there are a lot of people, but nothing else really.
That you truly believe that a stadium for 30 000 people is nessesarily more secure than a stadium for 70 000, makes me laugh. Sorry, but it hasn't got anything to do with the size. It's all about how you build the stadium. Modern big (very big) stadiums like the ones in Japan and Korea are everything BUT insecure.
And I don't want stadiums to be museums. When I want to go in a freakin' museum, then I go into a freakin' museum, but when I want FOOTBALL, TRUE SUPPORTERS, ATMOSPHERE, BENGALS - then I go into the stadium.
Families are welcome of course (don't get me wrong), but in the end it's the Ultras who truely support their team, who give everything, who enjoy and LIVE FOOTBALL.
That's the thing you don't get, or don't want to get.
I think we agree that we need to skip the running track. And we both agree that we need a great atmosphere. But families and VIPs will never chant "Forza Juve" or "Chi non salta è un ..."! They sit around and watch the game, without LIVING FOOTBALL.
30 000 is definitely not the right number. I'm with Paul, 55 or 60 thousand will do.
1) I know very well that it's not your project.
2) That's your real problem. You accept what they are planning without being critical, without thinking it over.
3) Money is a lot, but definitely not everything.
Again, you don't think about it. You just state that you trust all of your "experts" and that's it for you.
If it's all about the number of policemen, then I have to laugh.
Instead of hireing more policemen, you want to build a smaller stadium? Are you freakin' kidding me? You better be!
Look, I'm not in the Delle Alpi regulary. But I've been there and I know some people who were there and I've never heard of drug selling or experienced it.
About launching bengals there's nothing wrong. That's part of soccer in Italy. That's part of supporting your team.
And I don't want an all seated stadium. For me there's nothing better than standing in a curve, chanting for my club. I'm not interested in sitting next to Silvio Berlusconi in the VIP sector. Thanks but no thanks. If I'd want this, then I'd go to the theatre.
As I said, I'm against hooliganism, but I'm against the comercialising of football aswell. I don't want anyone to be scared. But sorry, I wasn't scared at all when I was in the Delle Alpi.
AND ULTRAS AREN'T ALL MORONS.
How would you know that 90 % of the Ultras don't pay. How would you know? And how would you know that it's EXACTLY 90%. Maybe there are some, but sorry Antonio, 90% is a wrong number. I'm sure about that.
And as I said, I've never heard of the Delle Alpi as a place to buy drugs. It's hard to believe.
Half of the stadium in Lecce supporting Juventus !?
Don't make me laugh.
That's what we had in Lecce this season ...
You call that "half of the stadium" !? :LOL::LOL:
You're kidding, right?
And the Ultras don't destroy the stadium. Stop making up things please.
I've said it a million times. It's like talking to a wall. I know and I accept that money is important and I don't want us to end like Fiorentina.
But we have to keep our tradition and there is one thing you can't buy with money: true support.
I was not dreaming, I was not being abnormally unrealistic. I just want to keep up our history and I don't want our tradition to become a victim of commerce.
These things are part of the game, part of the fans, part of Juventus.
I don't quite get the part where you try to explain something about Barcelona. Barcelona have a big stadium, but hardly any atmosphere. Fans aren't singing like in the San Siro (example), there are no bengals, there are no big banners. Yes, there are a lot of people, but nothing else really.
That you truly believe that a stadium for 30 000 people is nessesarily more secure than a stadium for 70 000, makes me laugh. Sorry, but it hasn't got anything to do with the size. It's all about how you build the stadium. Modern big (very big) stadiums like the ones in Japan and Korea are everything BUT insecure.
And I don't want stadiums to be museums. When I want to go in a freakin' museum, then I go into a freakin' museum, but when I want FOOTBALL, TRUE SUPPORTERS, ATMOSPHERE, BENGALS - then I go into the stadium.
Families are welcome of course (don't get me wrong), but in the end it's the Ultras who truely support their team, who give everything, who enjoy and LIVE FOOTBALL.
That's the thing you don't get, or don't want to get.
I think we agree that we need to skip the running track. And we both agree that we need a great atmosphere. But families and VIPs will never chant "Forza Juve" or "Chi non salta è un ..."! They sit around and watch the game, without LIVING FOOTBALL.
30 000 is definitely not the right number. I'm with Paul, 55 or 60 thousand will do.
1) I know very well that it's not your project.
2) That's your real problem. You accept what they are planning without being critical, without thinking it over.
3) Money is a lot, but definitely not everything.
Again, you don't think about it. You just state that you trust all of your "experts" and that's it for you.
If it's all about the number of policemen, then I have to laugh.
Instead of hireing more policemen, you want to build a smaller stadium? Are you freakin' kidding me? You better be!
Look, I'm not in the Delle Alpi regulary. But I've been there and I know some people who were there and I've never heard of drug selling or experienced it.
About launching bengals there's nothing wrong. That's part of soccer in Italy. That's part of supporting your team.
And I don't want an all seated stadium. For me there's nothing better than standing in a curve, chanting for my club. I'm not interested in sitting next to Silvio Berlusconi in the VIP sector. Thanks but no thanks. If I'd want this, then I'd go to the theatre.
As I said, I'm against hooliganism, but I'm against the comercialising of football aswell. I don't want anyone to be scared. But sorry, I wasn't scared at all when I was in the Delle Alpi.
AND ULTRAS AREN'T ALL MORONS.
How would you know that 90 % of the Ultras don't pay. How would you know? And how would you know that it's EXACTLY 90%. Maybe there are some, but sorry Antonio, 90% is a wrong number. I'm sure about that.
And as I said, I've never heard of the Delle Alpi as a place to buy drugs. It's hard to believe.
Half of the stadium in Lecce supporting Juventus !?
Don't make me laugh.
That's what we had in Lecce this season ...
You call that "half of the stadium" !? :LOL::LOL:
You're kidding, right?
And the Ultras don't destroy the stadium. Stop making up things please.
I've said it a million times. It's like talking to a wall. I know and I accept that money is important and I don't want us to end like Fiorentina.
But we have to keep our tradition and there is one thing you can't buy with money: true support.
I was not dreaming, I was not being abnormally unrealistic. I just want to keep up our history and I don't want our tradition to become a victim of commerce.
I think an ideal size for Delle Alpi would be 40,000 to 50,000. I agree with Antonio that Italy needs to clean all violent supporters;but I also agree that not every ultra' is a moron.
The idea to have a modern stadium with multiple facilities is not a bad idea at all that would mean more money for the club and a better enviroment for everyone. Ajax has it and it's beautiful.
Football is a sport for everyone and not only ultras and hardcore fans, so the idea to bring families back it's a great idea. Especially for the kids. I mean it's a pity that now days lot's of families are hesitant to bring their kids to the stadium because of violence and racism.
My two cents.
The idea to have a modern stadium with multiple facilities is not a bad idea at all that would mean more money for the club and a better enviroment for everyone. Ajax has it and it's beautiful.
Football is a sport for everyone and not only ultras and hardcore fans, so the idea to bring families back it's a great idea. Especially for the kids. I mean it's a pity that now days lot's of families are hesitant to bring their kids to the stadium because of violence and racism.
My two cents.
I have... many many times.
If you go to the curva nord you are pretty much gauranteed to be offered weed ....... dont really see the big deal!
I think drugs are quite big in many stadiums across europe.
Several places in italy last season there was a lot of weed being smoked...... worst last year was at arsenal where in the juve section where we were it was jus a cloud of dope smoke.
If you go to the curva nord you are pretty much gauranteed to be offered weed ....... dont really see the big deal!
I think drugs are quite big in many stadiums across europe.
Several places in italy last season there was a lot of weed being smoked...... worst last year was at arsenal where in the juve section where we were it was jus a cloud of dope smoke.
wow what a discussion...
first of all i think we must get rid of the running track to get the fans closer to the pitch....
then i also think it's important to get the hooligans out of the stadium.. - don't ask me how - i'm not a specialist for hooligans, but i think the juve-crew know well what to do against them...
antonio's point that a crowd of 30,000 is easier to controll than a crowd of 70,000 is clear.... but last year there weren't 70,000 people in delle alpi per match - there were about 45,000 per match - so do u think that 15,000 people make the difference? i think 20 more police men would also do it....
and about making the delle alpi an all-seater.... man, we're talking about soccer, passion.... and the atmoshphere is very important in an soccer-stadium... and not every fan, supporting juve by singing & co is a hooligan...
so in fact juve would be doing something against the atmosphere...
and what's comming next? electronic shocks??
don't get me wrong - i like the idea of "families comming to juve-matches", but i don't want a delle alpi (or whatever it will be called in future) where everybody is on his seat eating crisps and drinking coke.... (maybe i'm exaggerating...)
about the capacity:
IMO we shoud reduce the capacity to about 40,000 - 50,000, but as antonio said we could discuss ages about that
then if we would have a clean stadium - without hooligans and with hardcore-juve fans we could expand the number of seats to 100,000 or whatever....
about the amsterdam arena - i've been there - great stadium if u ask me...
and about the money-thing... jkane, u're right saying that there are things u can't buy with money, but in football money is a very important thing nowadays - just look at the wages of players... much to high if u ask me - and they're still increasing - so u can't deny that money isn't an important point
first of all i think we must get rid of the running track to get the fans closer to the pitch....
then i also think it's important to get the hooligans out of the stadium.. - don't ask me how - i'm not a specialist for hooligans, but i think the juve-crew know well what to do against them...
antonio's point that a crowd of 30,000 is easier to controll than a crowd of 70,000 is clear.... but last year there weren't 70,000 people in delle alpi per match - there were about 45,000 per match - so do u think that 15,000 people make the difference? i think 20 more police men would also do it....
and about making the delle alpi an all-seater.... man, we're talking about soccer, passion.... and the atmoshphere is very important in an soccer-stadium... and not every fan, supporting juve by singing & co is a hooligan...
so in fact juve would be doing something against the atmosphere...
and what's comming next? electronic shocks??
don't get me wrong - i like the idea of "families comming to juve-matches", but i don't want a delle alpi (or whatever it will be called in future) where everybody is on his seat eating crisps and drinking coke.... (maybe i'm exaggerating...)
about the capacity:
IMO we shoud reduce the capacity to about 40,000 - 50,000, but as antonio said we could discuss ages about that
then if we would have a clean stadium - without hooligans and with hardcore-juve fans we could expand the number of seats to 100,000 or whatever....
about the amsterdam arena - i've been there - great stadium if u ask me...
and about the money-thing... jkane, u're right saying that there are things u can't buy with money, but in football money is a very important thing nowadays - just look at the wages of players... much to high if u ask me - and they're still increasing - so u can't deny that money isn't an important point
Man.. maybe you dont know but they use bengals to shot them against opponent's fans, not for a show! LOL! This aint so nice, man! They use them against police and against opponent's fans.
Damn, that's too long. Man.. i'll just write you some considerations, cause you dont know probably a thing about italian situation:
1) sorry to call you like that but you a stupid if you think REAL FANS are only the ones in curva, and that the others are just sitted there eating chips. Let's use 2 words: MORONS and CLUB SUPPORTERS. ULTRAS is a word i hate! What the **** is an ultrà? It doesnt exist. MORONS are the ones who doesnt even know the result of the game. Who goes to the stadium to sell drugs, smoke weed, fight with the police, with other opponent's fans, by launching begalas (yea, cause there's nothing wrong launching them in the air!!!!) against police or other fans.... ETC. Those ones are the real CANCER of football in italy. Who cares if sometimes they sing "chi non salta è giallorosso!". They a cancer. They have to be DESTROYED (gotta use this word!). The second category is the ones i can really call REAL FANS. The CLUB SUPPORTERS. They are 90% from other areas of Italy, not from Turin. So they came to Turin every sunday from all the places. They follow the team and the really care about the result. They'll do everything to support the team. Even away from Turin. Juve loves them and pays them tickets or give them agevolations a lot of times (if not always). Without them, there's no Juve. But Juve doesnt want to cut them. Juve wants to cut the MORONS!! You know what i mean? It doesnt mean a damn thing to make it all chairs. Like that it will be easier for police to controll them. And harder for them to make all that noise in the curve to protect MORONS. 1000 or 3000 policemen cant do a damn thing against a wall of 30,000 fans of a curva! If they still like they are now. A jungle! That's why the idea of reducing the size and make it all chairs. Or 90% all chairs. To destroy that "jungle" of animals, CLUB SUPPORTERS, normal guys, criminals, drugs, etc.. and to make them just curve for supporters. REAL FANS.
2) You still talking about 30,000 or 50,000. MAN!!! STOP, PLS. This is just an anticipation. A speculation. The number aint important and aint defenitive yet. The important thing to comment is the mentality to fight the violence! Then everybody got his "perfect number". Let's not make a topic about a number, please. Talk about things more serious, like violence, drugs, etc..
3) About VIPS and families, you got it all wrong. Juve doesnt want to make a stadium for families and VIPs only and to cut ULTRAS. Where in the hell you read that? Truth is that right now just 1% of the stadium is made by families. And there a very high percentage of morons. Juve just wants to replace morons with families. What ULTRAS or VIPS has to do with it? VIPS? Juve already got a VIP sector. They said they wants VIPs there still making the confrontation with La Scala. It has to be THE SHOW of the sunday, so that even VIPs will be there. But it doesnt mean (LOL) that you have to sit next to Berlusconi, man!!!! DAMN! LOL!
4) About money... i think the wall is you. To make a project, you have to find money. To find money, sometimes you have to do someting impopular. That's all. It's not that money are everything, but.. without them you cant do nothing. What's the point talking about that? You wanna neglect that? Juve will search for sponsors and funds to finance this project. That's normal. It has NOTHING to do with tradition. It's business. With tradition you dont buy a stadium, and you dont CHANGE it. With tradition you stay like that in an horrible stadium.
++ [ originally posted by JKane ] ++
I don't quite get the part where you try to explain something about Barcelona. Barcelona have a big stadium, but hardly any atmosphere. Fans aren't singing like in the San Siro (example), there are no bengals, there are no big banners. Yes, there are a lot of people, but nothing else really.
That you truly believe that a stadium for 30 000 people is nessesarily more secure than a stadium for 70 000, makes me laugh. Sorry, but it hasn't got anything to do with the size. It's all about how you build the stadium. Modern big (very big) stadiums like the ones in Japan and Korea are everything BUT insecure.
And I don't want stadiums to be museums. When I want to go in a freakin' museum, then I go into a freakin' museum, but when I want FOOTBALL, TRUE SUPPORTERS, ATMOSPHERE, BENGALS - then I go into the stadium.
Families are welcome of course (don't get me wrong), but in the end it's the Ultras who truely support their team, who give everything, who enjoy and LIVE FOOTBALL.
That's the thing you don't get, or don't want to get.
I think we agree that we need to skip the running track. And we both agree that we need a great atmosphere. But families and VIPs will never chant "Forza Juve" or "Chi non salta è un ..."! They sit around and watch the game, without LIVING FOOTBALL.
30 000 is definitely not the right number. I'm with Paul, 55 or 60 thousand will do.
1) I know very well that it's not your project.
2) That's your real problem. You accept what they are planning without being critical, without thinking it over.
3) Money is a lot, but definitely not everything.
Again, you don't think about it. You just state that you trust all of your "experts" and that's it for you.
If it's all about the number of policemen, then I have to laugh.
Instead of hireing more policemen, you want to build a smaller stadium? Are you freakin' kidding me? You better be!
Look, I'm not in the Delle Alpi regulary. But I've been there and I know some people who were there and I've never heard of drug selling or experienced it.
About launching bengals there's nothing wrong. That's part of soccer in Italy. That's part of supporting your team.
And I don't want an all seated stadium. For me there's nothing better than standing in a curve, chanting for my club. I'm not interested in sitting next to Silvio Berlusconi in the VIP sector. Thanks but no thanks. If I'd want this, then I'd go to the theatre.
As I said, I'm against hooliganism, but I'm against the comercialising of football aswell. I don't want anyone to be scared. But sorry, I wasn't scared at all when I was in the Delle Alpi.
AND ULTRAS AREN'T ALL MORONS.
How would you know that 90 % of the Ultras don't pay. How would you know? And how would you know that it's EXACTLY 90%. Maybe there are some, but sorry Antonio, 90% is a wrong number. I'm sure about that.
And as I said, I've never heard of the Delle Alpi as a place to buy drugs. It's hard to believe.
Half of the stadium in Lecce supporting Juventus !?
Don't make me laugh.
That's what we had in Lecce this season ...
You call that "half of the stadium" !? :LOL::LOL:
You're kidding, right?
And the Ultras don't destroy the stadium. Stop making up things please.
I've said it a million times. It's like talking to a wall. I know and I accept that money is important and I don't want us to end like Fiorentina.
But we have to keep our tradition and there is one thing you can't buy with money: true support.
I was not dreaming, I was not being abnormally unrealistic. I just want to keep up our history and I don't want our tradition to become a victim of commerce.
I don't quite get the part where you try to explain something about Barcelona. Barcelona have a big stadium, but hardly any atmosphere. Fans aren't singing like in the San Siro (example), there are no bengals, there are no big banners. Yes, there are a lot of people, but nothing else really.
That you truly believe that a stadium for 30 000 people is nessesarily more secure than a stadium for 70 000, makes me laugh. Sorry, but it hasn't got anything to do with the size. It's all about how you build the stadium. Modern big (very big) stadiums like the ones in Japan and Korea are everything BUT insecure.
And I don't want stadiums to be museums. When I want to go in a freakin' museum, then I go into a freakin' museum, but when I want FOOTBALL, TRUE SUPPORTERS, ATMOSPHERE, BENGALS - then I go into the stadium.
Families are welcome of course (don't get me wrong), but in the end it's the Ultras who truely support their team, who give everything, who enjoy and LIVE FOOTBALL.
That's the thing you don't get, or don't want to get.
I think we agree that we need to skip the running track. And we both agree that we need a great atmosphere. But families and VIPs will never chant "Forza Juve" or "Chi non salta è un ..."! They sit around and watch the game, without LIVING FOOTBALL.
30 000 is definitely not the right number. I'm with Paul, 55 or 60 thousand will do.
1) I know very well that it's not your project.
2) That's your real problem. You accept what they are planning without being critical, without thinking it over.
3) Money is a lot, but definitely not everything.
Again, you don't think about it. You just state that you trust all of your "experts" and that's it for you.
If it's all about the number of policemen, then I have to laugh.
Instead of hireing more policemen, you want to build a smaller stadium? Are you freakin' kidding me? You better be!
Look, I'm not in the Delle Alpi regulary. But I've been there and I know some people who were there and I've never heard of drug selling or experienced it.
About launching bengals there's nothing wrong. That's part of soccer in Italy. That's part of supporting your team.
And I don't want an all seated stadium. For me there's nothing better than standing in a curve, chanting for my club. I'm not interested in sitting next to Silvio Berlusconi in the VIP sector. Thanks but no thanks. If I'd want this, then I'd go to the theatre.
As I said, I'm against hooliganism, but I'm against the comercialising of football aswell. I don't want anyone to be scared. But sorry, I wasn't scared at all when I was in the Delle Alpi.
AND ULTRAS AREN'T ALL MORONS.
How would you know that 90 % of the Ultras don't pay. How would you know? And how would you know that it's EXACTLY 90%. Maybe there are some, but sorry Antonio, 90% is a wrong number. I'm sure about that.
And as I said, I've never heard of the Delle Alpi as a place to buy drugs. It's hard to believe.
Half of the stadium in Lecce supporting Juventus !?
Don't make me laugh.
That's what we had in Lecce this season ...
You call that "half of the stadium" !? :LOL::LOL:
You're kidding, right?
And the Ultras don't destroy the stadium. Stop making up things please.
I've said it a million times. It's like talking to a wall. I know and I accept that money is important and I don't want us to end like Fiorentina.
But we have to keep our tradition and there is one thing you can't buy with money: true support.
I was not dreaming, I was not being abnormally unrealistic. I just want to keep up our history and I don't want our tradition to become a victim of commerce.
1) sorry to call you like that but you a stupid if you think REAL FANS are only the ones in curva, and that the others are just sitted there eating chips. Let's use 2 words: MORONS and CLUB SUPPORTERS. ULTRAS is a word i hate! What the **** is an ultrà? It doesnt exist. MORONS are the ones who doesnt even know the result of the game. Who goes to the stadium to sell drugs, smoke weed, fight with the police, with other opponent's fans, by launching begalas (yea, cause there's nothing wrong launching them in the air!!!!) against police or other fans.... ETC. Those ones are the real CANCER of football in italy. Who cares if sometimes they sing "chi non salta è giallorosso!". They a cancer. They have to be DESTROYED (gotta use this word!). The second category is the ones i can really call REAL FANS. The CLUB SUPPORTERS. They are 90% from other areas of Italy, not from Turin. So they came to Turin every sunday from all the places. They follow the team and the really care about the result. They'll do everything to support the team. Even away from Turin. Juve loves them and pays them tickets or give them agevolations a lot of times (if not always). Without them, there's no Juve. But Juve doesnt want to cut them. Juve wants to cut the MORONS!! You know what i mean? It doesnt mean a damn thing to make it all chairs. Like that it will be easier for police to controll them. And harder for them to make all that noise in the curve to protect MORONS. 1000 or 3000 policemen cant do a damn thing against a wall of 30,000 fans of a curva! If they still like they are now. A jungle! That's why the idea of reducing the size and make it all chairs. Or 90% all chairs. To destroy that "jungle" of animals, CLUB SUPPORTERS, normal guys, criminals, drugs, etc.. and to make them just curve for supporters. REAL FANS.
2) You still talking about 30,000 or 50,000. MAN!!! STOP, PLS. This is just an anticipation. A speculation. The number aint important and aint defenitive yet. The important thing to comment is the mentality to fight the violence! Then everybody got his "perfect number". Let's not make a topic about a number, please. Talk about things more serious, like violence, drugs, etc..
3) About VIPS and families, you got it all wrong. Juve doesnt want to make a stadium for families and VIPs only and to cut ULTRAS. Where in the hell you read that? Truth is that right now just 1% of the stadium is made by families. And there a very high percentage of morons. Juve just wants to replace morons with families. What ULTRAS or VIPS has to do with it? VIPS? Juve already got a VIP sector. They said they wants VIPs there still making the confrontation with La Scala. It has to be THE SHOW of the sunday, so that even VIPs will be there. But it doesnt mean (LOL) that you have to sit next to Berlusconi, man!!!! DAMN! LOL!
4) About money... i think the wall is you. To make a project, you have to find money. To find money, sometimes you have to do someting impopular. That's all. It's not that money are everything, but.. without them you cant do nothing. What's the point talking about that? You wanna neglect that? Juve will search for sponsors and funds to finance this project. That's normal. It has NOTHING to do with tradition. It's business. With tradition you dont buy a stadium, and you dont CHANGE it. With tradition you stay like that in an horrible stadium.
Tonio, do you have last season's figures regarding Juve's TV rights? I'd be interested to know the difference compared to 2002/2003 (€ 59m) because from my perspective, it's not that big and it may be just a conjonctural recession. Either way we're never gonna fill the deficit by luring more people to the Delle Alpi. It's not longer golden Age, no doubt. But do you suggest that from now on we better rely on the stadium, like if TV deals shall become negligible? I just wonder because you used it as part of your argumentation. TV rights will remain our first source of incomes for a long time being, do you agree?
Ciao.
Ciao.
Yeah, but the golden Age is finished for TV's too. In Italy we almost missed the WORLD CUP on TV, cause nobody wanted to pay for the rights. At the last moment and with the help of Govern we reached a deal with FIFA. Immagine from 2003-04 (it's not this year the problem! NEXT ONE) when our good contract with Tele+ and Stream (Champions League) will be finished, and when there'll be no war between Stream and Tele+ cause Tele+ is buying Stream! It means imo about half (if not less) of the current price. So it means that TV will probably still be our first source, but not like in Spain, or English. You noticed what happened in Germany? Well... We aint in the same situation, but.. our aint good either!
Antonio,
You are right the golden age of tv is over....in fact it has been for a long time now.
You say italy is not in the same place as germany, you are wrong , italys situation is actually worse.
You say that telepui is buying stream... that is merely what is put out to the public it is not exactly correct and that is why italy's position is so bad....
You see telepui is owned by rupert murdochs News Corp, News Corp have bought a controlling share in stream as well, they are now merging the 2 companies hidden behind the idea that telepui is buying stream.... in fact it is News Corp removing competition to create one company.
Now News Corp own shares in NDS, Canal Plus, Kirch etc
So any problems with any of these companies effect every other.... the collapse of Kirshe places News Corp in severe difficulties and is one of the key things behind the problems of Canal Plus and Telepui.They now own most of europe and every peice is collapsing around them...And thisis why Rupert Murdoch truely is the devil!!!!
You keep mentioning the english clubss being ok.... that is rubbish,. English clubs have never received anywhere near the amount the italians have from tv.
English tv money is shared equally between all clubs unlike in italy where juve gets far more than the likes of perugis.
Also in england we have never had the ppv options available that italy has....
eg. Last season I watched every single Juve match through ppv.
Whereas if i was a manu supporter living in england i would be lucky to have access to half of there games.
Italian giants have been the biggest beneficiaries of tv money anywhere in the world, and as such will miss it more when it is finally gone...... troubles are coming and in the most case it is because clubs have not heeded the warnings and are unprepared.
Jus look at how many English clubs are now in trouble due to the collapse of itv digital.... all because of greed and not taking any notice of the warnings that were coming from spain and germany as it all fell around there ears.... also you must take into account that the massive problems caused by itv is about pennies for each club... not the 10's of millions italian clubs have been enjoying...
Anyway overall your right...... problems are coming, and we must be prepared.. that is why our connections with america and asia are so very important, and especially those tie ins with manu,, these things are the main reasons manu are in such a great position.... whatever we say about them as a club.... they are jus about the only club that were truely prepared for the troubles ahead...... the money men at manu are second to none!!!
You are right the golden age of tv is over....in fact it has been for a long time now.
You say italy is not in the same place as germany, you are wrong , italys situation is actually worse.
You say that telepui is buying stream... that is merely what is put out to the public it is not exactly correct and that is why italy's position is so bad....
You see telepui is owned by rupert murdochs News Corp, News Corp have bought a controlling share in stream as well, they are now merging the 2 companies hidden behind the idea that telepui is buying stream.... in fact it is News Corp removing competition to create one company.
Now News Corp own shares in NDS, Canal Plus, Kirch etc
So any problems with any of these companies effect every other.... the collapse of Kirshe places News Corp in severe difficulties and is one of the key things behind the problems of Canal Plus and Telepui.They now own most of europe and every peice is collapsing around them...And thisis why Rupert Murdoch truely is the devil!!!!
You keep mentioning the english clubss being ok.... that is rubbish,. English clubs have never received anywhere near the amount the italians have from tv.
English tv money is shared equally between all clubs unlike in italy where juve gets far more than the likes of perugis.
Also in england we have never had the ppv options available that italy has....
eg. Last season I watched every single Juve match through ppv.
Whereas if i was a manu supporter living in england i would be lucky to have access to half of there games.
Italian giants have been the biggest beneficiaries of tv money anywhere in the world, and as such will miss it more when it is finally gone...... troubles are coming and in the most case it is because clubs have not heeded the warnings and are unprepared.
Jus look at how many English clubs are now in trouble due to the collapse of itv digital.... all because of greed and not taking any notice of the warnings that were coming from spain and germany as it all fell around there ears.... also you must take into account that the massive problems caused by itv is about pennies for each club... not the 10's of millions italian clubs have been enjoying...
Anyway overall your right...... problems are coming, and we must be prepared.. that is why our connections with america and asia are so very important, and especially those tie ins with manu,, these things are the main reasons manu are in such a great position.... whatever we say about them as a club.... they are jus about the only club that were truely prepared for the troubles ahead...... the money men at manu are second to none!!!
Antonio ...
That's a fact, sadly. But I doubt anyone has a chance to stop these happenings. And I'm against a bengal - free stadium just because some are going too far.
Why doesn't the expression "ultra" exist for you, if I may ask? For me, an ultra is a hardcore fan, who gives everything for his club, who travels to Lecce, to Bari, who sings and who enjoys football.
I don't know if I got you right (I hope I didn't), but for you ultras are morons? Jeez, that's sad. Real fans, ultras, are the true supporters.
And let me tell you: You won't get the so - called "morons" out of the stadium by reducing the size. Yea, maybe there'll be less, but they will always be there.
I think that there are always black sheeps, but calling all people in the curves "morons" is ... well ... no words needed.
Two things I have to say.
1) I just stated that 55 000 - 60 000 is the right size for our new stadium. I'm just expressing what I think is best.
2) You won't get the violence out by reducing the size. If you think so, then you are naive ... or stupid. (if you want)
The Berlusconi - thing was an example, nothing more.
I can only state what I already said ...
1) Both families and Ultras should be welcome.
2) You won't get your "morons" out by making the stadium smaller.
Look, I accept that money is important and I never said the opposite. But money should not destroy tradition. And by selling our new stadium's name, we'd destroy some of our tradition. That's all.
I'm somewhat an idealist ... can't help it.
Juventus too has racist fans. Not as many as Lazio of course, but there are some.
That's a fact, sadly. But I doubt anyone has a chance to stop these happenings. And I'm against a bengal - free stadium just because some are going too far.
Why doesn't the expression "ultra" exist for you, if I may ask? For me, an ultra is a hardcore fan, who gives everything for his club, who travels to Lecce, to Bari, who sings and who enjoys football.
I don't know if I got you right (I hope I didn't), but for you ultras are morons? Jeez, that's sad. Real fans, ultras, are the true supporters.
And let me tell you: You won't get the so - called "morons" out of the stadium by reducing the size. Yea, maybe there'll be less, but they will always be there.
I think that there are always black sheeps, but calling all people in the curves "morons" is ... well ... no words needed.
Two things I have to say.
1) I just stated that 55 000 - 60 000 is the right size for our new stadium. I'm just expressing what I think is best.
2) You won't get the violence out by reducing the size. If you think so, then you are naive ... or stupid. (if you want)
The Berlusconi - thing was an example, nothing more.
I can only state what I already said ...
1) Both families and Ultras should be welcome.
2) You won't get your "morons" out by making the stadium smaller.
Look, I accept that money is important and I never said the opposite. But money should not destroy tradition. And by selling our new stadium's name, we'd destroy some of our tradition. That's all.
I'm somewhat an idealist ... can't help it.
Juventus too has racist fans. Not as many as Lazio of course, but there are some.