Shooting in USA-thread. (15 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

Would you believe I don't disagree with anything Andy just wrote?

The question is -- where is Andries? Maybe he secretly agrees too. He is close to 30, after all.

 

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[Seven]

The question is -- where is Andries? Maybe he secretly agrees too. He is close to 30, after all.

I agree with a lot you wrote, but you place the right to bear arms at the same level of human rights. The right to bear arms is nowhere near that essential imo.

 

[Enron]

I agree with a lot you wrote, but you place the right to bear arms at the same level of human rights. The right to bear arms is nowhere near that essential imo.

Also, the Second Amendment is a lot more than simply the right to bear arms. There are some other very important words that add context to the amendment.

 

[Seven]

Also, the Second Amendment is a lot more than simply the right to bear arms. There are some other very important words that add context to the amendment.

Of course. But context is sort of lost on Andy in this debate it appears.

Tbh though I don't even understand why you'd think that a gun is necessary in urban areas. If you can't survive in a city without a gun, you clearly need to leave that city. I sure as hell wouldn't raise my children there. I guess his reasoning is so far removed from my own that we will never quite understand each other regarding this topic.

 

[swag]

Also, the Second Amendment is a lot more than simply the right to bear arms. There are some other very important words that add context to the amendment.

So hard to join armed militias these days that aren't Daesh.

 

[Seven]

So hard to join armed militias these days that aren't Daesh.

It would probably be a good idea to rewrite the 2nd amendment at this point.

 

[swag]

It would probably be a good idea to rewrite the 2nd amendment at this point.

They are amendments for a reason.

 

[Seven]

They are amendments for a reason.

Exactly. But somehow the vast majority of people have forgotten the meaning of the word amendment. Oh and for what it's worth, the constitution isn't holy either. The law is the law. But you can always change it.

 

[Ocelot]

Exactly. But somehow the vast majority of people have forgotten the meaning of the word amendment.

Or that the founding fathers aren't infallible.

 

[Seven]

Or that the founding fathers aren't infallible.

That is seriously the weirdest shit of all in the States. This entire notion that they always must consider how the founding fathers felt about certain things.. It's stupid for such a multitude of reasons that I prefer not to think about it as it is too annoying.

 

[Ocelot]

That is seriously the weirdest shit of all in the States. This entire notion that they always must consider how the founding fathers felt about certain things.. It's stupid for such a multitude of reasons that I prefer not to think about it as it is too annoying.

I mean that's not even to take anything away from them, they were hugely influential, very progressive & also intelligent people, but the attitudes and opinions they held in a society & context quite different from ours shouldn't be enough to justify anything.

 

[Seven]

I mean that's not even to take anything away from them, they were hugely influential, very progressive & also intelligent people, but the attitudes and opinions they held in a society & context quite different from ours shouldn't be enough to justify anything.

Of course not. But we also have people looking to the Bible or the Quran for answers. And that's basically the same thing. People are stupid that way it seems.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Or that the founding fathers aren't infallible.

So you are contending people shouldn't have access to fire arms? What if majority of people in the US support Thai right? What then

 

[Ocelot]

Of course not. But we also have people looking to the Bible or the Quran for answers. And that's basically the same thing. People are stupid that way it seems.

...but for religious people it makes sense to look for anwers in their holy books, I mean they do believe that they written/dictated by omnipotent & omnisentient beings. You might not share those believes, I don't either, but at least they're self-consistent in this case.

But the people constantly referring to the 2nd amendment & the founding fathers don't believe that Washington & Franklin were gods. At least not anyone I've met

 

[Seven]

...but for religious people it makes sense to look for anwers in their holy books, I mean they do believe that they written/dictated by omnipotent & omnisentient beings. You might not share those believes, I don't either, but at least they're self-consistent in this case.

But the people constantly referring to the 2nd amendment & the founding fathers don't believe that Washington & Franklin were gods. At least not anyone I've met

They don't. But there's a religious aspect to the way they worship what the founding fathers wrote. Perhaps part of it is that the USA is so young that it actually has an origin story (I realise Belgium is technically younger, but the territory has a long history of being one).

 

[Ocelot]

So you are contending people shouldn't have access to fire arms? What if majority of people in the US support Thai right? What then

What I'm contending with this argument is not the right to bear arms per se (that's a completely different discussion), but simply that the argument of the 2nd amendment and the founding fathers is much weaker than most people think.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

What I'm contending with this argument is not the right to bear arms per se (that's a completely different discussion), but simply that the argument of the 2nd amendment and the founding fathers is much weaker than most people think.

Same could be said about human rights, geneva convention etc the legitimacy comes from consensus and not some sense of godly wisdom

 

[Seven]

Same could be said about human rights, geneva convention etc the legitimacy comes from consensus and not some sense of godly wisdom

Of course. But that's exactly what the left is saying. In fact their point is entirely logical: we see that more guns equals more gun violence. We see that less guns equals less violence. So let's have less guns. The right on the other hand is making an entirely emotional argument based on the fact that a couple of dudes in 1791 thought it was okay to have guns.

And that's just silly. Because you know what? I disagree with the 2nd amendment. Let's change it.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Of course. But that's exactly what the left is saying. In fact their point is entirely logical: we see that more guns equals more gun violence. We see that less guns equals less violence. So let's have less guns. The right on the other hand is making an entirely emotional argument based on the fact that a couple of dudes in 1791 thought it was okay to have guns.

And that's just silly. Because you know what? I disagree with the 2nd amendment. Let's change it.

Yeah but it hits at the heart of the ideology of both, mainly the government neither having the jurisdiction nor the competence to enact any action that can make a difference

 

[swag]

That is seriously the weirdest shit of all in the States. This entire notion that they always must consider how the founding fathers felt about certain things.. It's stupid for such a multitude of reasons that I prefer not to think about it as it is too annoying.

Americans sure love a star chamber.

Of course not. But we also have people looking to the Bible or the Quran for answers. And that's basically the same thing. People are stupid that way it seems.

Yup. And there are some religious movements in the US that conflate the two. Like George Washington was accidentally omitted from the New Testament, that sort of thing.

They don't. But there's a religious aspect to the way they worship what the founding fathers wrote. Perhaps part of it is that the USA is so young that it actually has an origin story (I realise Belgium is technically younger, but the territory has a long history of being one).

It's like Americans have a fascination with the story of the 1970s Saturday morning Shazam! TV series with a need to consult "The Elders":