Shooting in USA-thread. (16 Viewers)

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
I'm not defending free for all gun laws, I just think that it is not the reason for mass shootings. There definitely should be strick rules how to get guns. But dealing with mass shootings with bans for guns will not work at all, because it's not the underlying reason.
 

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,329
I'm not defending free for all gun laws, I just think that it is not the reason for mass shootings. There definitely should be strick rules how to get guns. But dealing with mass shootings with bans for guns will not work at all, because it's not the underlying reason.
Of course not. But banning guns is a given, because the benefits are 0 and the risks are high.
 

ZoSo

Senior Member
Jul 11, 2011
41,656
You'd probably get a bunch of conspiracy nut looneys shooting up god knows where if they actually tried to ban guns


It's pretty bad all round
 

Cheesio

**********
Jul 11, 2006
22,514
I'm not defending free for all gun laws, I just think that it is not the reason for mass shootings. There definitely should be strick rules how to get guns. But dealing with mass shootings with bans for guns will not work at all, because it's not the underlying reason.
It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons, mass shooting occurs in such a high frequency in the states because access to guns is easy for anyone. Just ban the guns and try to provide some medical assistance to the lunatics and the sick people you have in your country and the number of deaths will decrease automatically.

Of course not. But banning guns is a given, because the benefits are 0 and the risks are high.
This.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
Of course not. But banning guns is a given, because the benefits are 0 and the risks are high.
You are for a complete ban?

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It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons, mass shooting occurs in such a high frequency in the states because access to guns is easy for anyone. Just ban the guns and try to provide some medical assistance to the lunatics and the sick people you have in your country and the number of deaths will decrease automatically.
Guns are not the reason. Wonder why Swiss, don't have mass shootings while they have a lot of guns too. Make guns very hard to get, or even ban them, I don't care tbh, but thinking that banning guns will help the problem is nuts. The most effort should be done towards understanding why these people go on mass shootings and how to help the situation.

I really doubt that these ill people go out on these shootings because they can get easy guns.
 

Wings

Banter era connoiseur
Contributor
Jul 15, 2002
21,570
Is there a limit to the number of guns one can own in the US? How can someone buying (I assume legitimately) 12 guns not raise a flag somewhere?
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
@Ocelot Do Europeans calculate unemployment rates similarly to the US government? For instance, do they exclude some people as out of the labor force if they aren't employed within a year? What's the calculation?
The problem is that the way unemployment rates are calculated differs heavily betweenn European countries as well. I only really know about the Austrian case, where anyone that's registered at an institution called "job market service", which is basically a public job agency. You need to do that to qualify for unemployment benifits and all sorts of stuff, so the vast majority of unemployed are actually registered there. However, a more significant number of unemployed are then "hidden" in schooling programs offered by this agency. These programs are a good thing in principle, often offerring people stemming from a regressing/obsolote industry chances to reorientate themselves and afterwards many of them actually find a job as a result, but at times it's just a matter of giving them something to do. Which I suppose can also be justified as it at least gives them some sort of a normal day routine, very important from a psychological point of view for the unemployed, keeps them from dropping out of the system alltogether, and at times even criminal activities, but as a matter of fact it does skew unemployment figures.

Read that the US actually uses nothing more than surveys to determine the RoU? Doesn't seem that effective to me tbh.


Also in general people in Europe, if they've got a job, can be considered to earn a living wage (changing in the last couple of years unfortunately, but in general this still applies). The working poor in the US are a much bigger fraction of society iirc.

About excluding people as out of the labor force if they aren't employed within a year, that would be the first time I heard about something like that.


It proves that gun bans do not equate to reducing violent crime. Throw in the fact that law-abiding citizens can arm themselves against criminals who don't care about laws, there is sufficient evidence you can curtail the threat of crime, as what has occurred in Detroit. The fact we have what is essentially a total drug ban and major drug epidemic in this country should cause folks to deduce that reducing legal access to firearms will do jack squat here. Gangs, robbers, and mass shooters will get their hands on weapons regardless of a ban, just like junkies will spend 20K on the corner to get their high.



Conglomeration of reasons, one of which is overmedication. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people now, including family members, that struggle with anti-D's and other types of drugs. It really does cause them to make irrational decisions.
There are very notable differences between drugs and guns though. For one, guns aren't addictive. If drugs get harder and harder to obtain, you'll do everything to get them anyways if you're addicted. With guns, it's a simple cost/profit calculation (if we're talking about criminal activities). If the risk/cost associated with getting guns is too high, other, less deadly & cheaper to get weapons will be used.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,329
You are for a complete ban?

Hmm.. Not particularly. I guess people should be allowed to hunt with the right kind of weapons and the right kind of training. But handguns in your own home? I don't see the benefit.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
Hmm.. Not particularly. I guess people should be allowed to hunt with the right kind of weapons and the right kind of training. But handguns in your own home? I don't see the benefit.
I kind of agree that handguns and guns in the cities have no place. But there are places, specially in america, where one should have a right to own a gun. Remote areas, where animals could be a problem or where you could not get help from law soon.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
In this case all the fault should lie on improper safekeeping of the gun. If it was placed in a safe and outside of reach, 11 year old would not have had the possibility to get it. Not saying guns should be free for all, but in this case it's down to the owner not keeping it safe place.

But if it is kept in a safe and in a hard to get place where you can't access it instantly, then what use it is for a self defense?
But with every other household having a gun, there will always be more than enough persons who are irresponsible.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
But with every other household having a gun, there will always be more than enough persons who are irresponsible.
I agree with this. As i mentioned post above yours, i think guns have no place in cities and high or medium populated areas.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,329
I kind of agree that handguns and guns in the cities have no place. But there are places, specially in america, where one should have a right to own a gun. Remote areas, where animals could be a problem or where you could not get help from law soon.

I think in parts of Alaska it makes a lot of sense to own a gun. If I lived there, I would too. I mean, if I spend three weeks there and I constantly come across bears, you bet if I'd live there I'd buy a gun.

But like you say, cities are a different story.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015...fficer-being-stalked-rattles-law-enforcement/
@Bjerknes

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There are very notable differences between drugs and guns though. For one, guns aren't addictive. If drugs get harder and harder to obtain, you'll do everything to get them anyways if you're addicted. With guns, it's a simple cost/profit calculation (if we're talking about criminal activities). If the risk/cost associated with getting guns is too high, other, less deadly & cheaper to get weapons will be used.
Banning guns will create a deadly black market where suddenly guns triple in value because they are illegal. Similar to the war on drugs, crime & violence will increase. Lastly, if a wacked out teen wants to take out 10 kids in a school but doesn't have access to a gun all he needs to do is google how to make a B**b and he could double the count. It isn't hard to realize if a criminal or mentally ill person wants to take a life they will find a way to do it.

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But with every other household having a gun, there will always be more than enough persons who are irresponsible.
You know the kid that shot up the school in Oregon, his dad has NO IDEA he owned 7 guns? Even his mom knew he was mentally ill. That said, this should have been avoided had the parents been involved and paid attention to warning signs, also, owning a gun was entirely to easy for him.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
Banning guns will create a deadly black market where suddenly guns triple in value because they are illegal. Similar to the war on drugs, crime & violence will increase. Lastly, if a wacked out teen wants to take out 10 kids in a school but doesn't have access to a gun all he needs to do is google how to make a B**b and he could double the count. It isn't hard to realize if a criminal or mentally ill person wants to take a life they will find a way to do it.
That's the point, much less people will be able to afford it.

And for your second point, if it's so much better & easier to make a bomb, how come there have been so much fewer school bombings than shootings? But seriously, that last argument is ludicrous, if they're gonna find a way in any case we might as well give them nuclear weapons. Of course they can find a way to harm people if they're smart and determined, but the harder it is for them, the fewer people will actually go through with it, and the fewer people will get killed by those who do. It's about minimising damage rather than abolishing it alltogether, which would indeed be impossible.

You know the kid that shot up the school in Oregon, his dad has NO IDEA he owned 7 guns? Even his mom knew he was mentally ill. That said, this should have been avoided had the parents been involved and paid attention to warning signs, also, owning a gun was entirely to easy for him.
My post was directed at the instances as the one described in the article, where often little children shoot/get shot with irresponsibly stored firearms.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,329
Banning guns will create a deadly black market where suddenly guns triple in value because they are illegal. Similar to the war on drugs, crime & violence will increase.
You do realise that this goes against every statistic of every developed country available? In your thesis gun crime and violence would be huge in Europe as gun bans are pretty much universal. Yet gun related deaths are much higher in the States.

You are making zero sense. I get that you guys have an emotional attachment to guns, but please don't pretend you're arguing on a rational basis.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,661
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015...fficer-being-stalked-rattles-law-enforcement/
@Bjerknes

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Banning guns will create a deadly black market where suddenly guns triple in value because they are illegal. Similar to the war on drugs, crime & violence will increase. Lastly, if a wacked out teen wants to take out 10 kids in a school but doesn't have access to a gun all he needs to do is google how to make a B**b and he could double the count. It isn't hard to realize if a criminal or mentally ill person wants to take a life they will find a way to do it.

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You know the kid that shot up the school in Oregon, his dad has NO IDEA he owned 7 guns? Even his mom knew he was mentally ill. That said, this should have been avoided had the parents been involved and paid attention to warning signs, also, owning a gun was entirely to easy for him.
Well the parents were separated and the dad hadn't seen his son in 2 years. That said, I don't think parents should be held responsible for things their 27 year old does. Truth is, we need a better societal solution to this problem. But unfortunately we will continue to make excuses for these atrocities until the next one occurs, then we'll make more excuses and send a few twitter prayers and so on and so forth. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's the new norm.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,754
I think our guns laws are pretty spot on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia#Australian_firearm_laws

probably too 'extreme' for USA though
Yeah, we think you guys are pinko commies.

Lowballing us, eh? Armed militias. Second amendment. You know, no limits.

Even if they will do fuck all against a government deploying drones against its citizens and serve mainly for the masses to shoot each other for Hobbesian survival.

Banning guns will create a deadly black market where suddenly guns triple in value because they are illegal. Similar to the war on drugs, crime & violence will increase.
Australia went through this. I heard the black market there prices a gun at like $35,000.

Lastly, if a wacked out teen wants to take out 10 kids in a school but doesn't have access to a gun all he needs to do is google how to make a B**b and he could double the count.
We don't have a bomb culture problem like some nations. There isn't the glory in it. Schwarzenegger doesn't go around in Hollywood movies dropping pressure cookers on bad guys. It's a poor aesthetic.

Remember, most of these loons are aggrieved losers who believe the world did them wrong and they're out to seek retribution and vengeance. Bombs don't fit that narrative as easily: too impersonal against the victims.

You know the kid that shot up the school in Oregon, his dad has NO IDEA he owned 7 guns? Even his mom knew he was mentally ill. That said, this should have been avoided had the parents been involved and paid attention to warning signs, also, owning a gun was entirely to easy for him.
What's weird is a little of the similarities between that guy's mom and the mom of the Sandy Hook killer. Both went through ugly divorces (perhaps their children being part of the reason?). Both knew their kids had mental problems and partly covered for them. Both encouraged their sons to go deep into guns as an outlet.

Of course, one of those moms was shot dead first.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,329
"Making it harder to get a gun will result in more gunrelated deaths".


- How are we even debating this nonsense?
 

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