Shooting in USA-thread. (25 Viewers)

[Hust]

Same thing with other mass shootings. So using the criminal element in the US is to defend the occurrence of mass shootings in the US is largely irrelevant, since the groups aren't one and the same.

Look at nations with large gun bans. Criminals still get weapons, yet there aren't mass shootings at the frequency of the US. Criminals always have weapons, it's the other guys we need to worry about.

I'm not defending the mass shootings as criminals. I thought it was understood that we were talking about crime in bigger cities. So to clarify, that is what I was talking about at least.

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Every single mass shooting I can think of from Columbine, Auorora (CO), Sandy Hook, & South Carolina were all mentally ill.

 

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[Ocelot]

Ya'll realize that the criminal element in the US isn't the part of society responsible for school shootings?

Yes, and to prevent/reduce school shootings, gun restrictions would be much more effective than with criminal activities. Your typical school shooter doesn't exactly have connections to the underground and would in many cases not be able to obtain a gun. Not to mention that even if, it would be much more expensive, especially for assault rifles, the type of arms potentially causing the most casualties.

 

[Enron]

Yes, and to prevent/reduce school shootings, gun restrictions would be much more effective than with criminal activities. Your typical school shooter doesn't exactly have connections to the underground and would in many cases not be able to obtain a gun. Not to mention that even if, it would be much more expensive, especially for assault rifles, the type of arms potentially causing the most casualties.

Yep. Facebook got me fired up this morning. Knuckle dragging NRA fucks can't tell the difference between these guys and the guy who might one day burgle them.

 

[Ocelot]

We are talking about breaking the law by murdering someone which people are tying directly to guns, no? So if a criminal is hell bent on breaking the law as we obviously know with the gun murders then its a fairly simple assessment: criminals will break the law, that's what makes them a criminal.

And to think banning guns would result in criminals not getting guns is sorta crazy don't you think?

Lastly to the other debate, if our 5.5% unemployment is so bad then I don't know what to say about half of Europe's rate. Going by our form of government by much of Europe's...no thank you, I will stick to ours. You could would have been better off without the EU.

If we're talking about people involved in typical inner city criminal activities (drugs, gangs,etc.), a lot less people would've guns if it would be more difficult or expensive to get one. No way around that. Most of the deaths involving guns aren't pre-mediated murders btw, those would indeed be much less affected.

But really, the economic problems experienced by the EU currently have virtually nothing to do with a large welfare state or anything discussed previously (Greece did have overblown, often useless, public employment - but Greece makes up a fraction of the EU in terms of population and economic output). To relate the problemd of the European countries right now makes very littly sense. No one's arguing for a currency union between the US, Mexico, Canada & half of middle-America without any major cooperation of economic policies, inflation & wages.

 

[Enron]

@Bjerknes

The Amero.

 

[Ocelot]

Yep. Facebook got me fired up this morning. Knuckle dragging NRA fucks can't tell the difference between these guys and the guy who might one day burgle them.

One main problem with restrictions/ban on guns would of course be that there are so incredilby many guns already out there, that the impact wouldn't be big in the short term. Unless you'd literally take the guns away by force, which isn't really an option due to a lot of reasons, don't tihnk I need to elaborate on this one.

 

[Bjerknes]

What a freaking stupid argument. Read a thing or two on causality.

You didn't get the point. Shocker.

Also it's just a city-wide gun, which is much much easier to circumvent than a nation-wide one would.

We have a nation-wide drug ban apart from a few states. A lot of it comes through Mexico, while others decide to cook it up in their basements. How's that ban working out for us? Pretty poorly, I'd say.

You can ban anything you want. Doesn't mean the ban will be effective. And as such, nobody has a right to tell the American people you can't protect yourself against crimes, especially when the government commits atrocities around the world and has their employees guarded by firearms as well. The 2nd amendment is a constitutional right and it had better stay that way.

Why doesn't someone start a mental illness thread when a mass-shooting occurs?

 

[Ocelot]

[MENTION]Bjerkness[/MENTION]

The Amero.

Haha, didn't even know about that

Them conspiracy theories tho

 

[swag]

Ya'll realize that the criminal element in the US isn't the part of society responsible for school shootings?

Yep. This thread is completely off the rails from its original premise.

Yep. Facebook got me fired up this morning. Knuckle dragging NRA fucks can't tell the difference between these guys and the guy who might one day burgle them.

Exactly. Because as we all know, "these guys" are all disturbed, white male loners. And the people who might burgle them are... :rndh:

 

[Hust]

this guy disagrees

 

[Enron]

this guy disagrees

Color don't dictate stupid.

 

[Hust]

If we're talking about people involved in typical inner city criminal activities (drugs, gangs,etc.), a lot less people would've guns if it would be more difficult or expensive to get one. No way around that. Most of the deaths involving guns aren't pre-mediated murders btw, those would indeed be much less affected.

But really, the economic problems experienced by the EU currently have virtually nothing to do with a large welfare state or anything discussed previously (Greece did have overblown, often useless, public employment - but Greece makes up a fraction of the EU in terms of population and economic output). To relate the problemd of the European countries right now makes very littly sense. No one's arguing for a currency union between the US, Mexico, Canada & half of middle-America without any major cooperation of economic policies, inflation & wages.

Is this accurate?

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And to your first point about making it harder to get guns would directly result in criminals finding it more difficult to get them...No, it wouldn't. There would be an even bigger black market for them and as a result of the black market and even higher crime rate. Example, see Andy's point on banning drugs.

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Color don't dictate stupid.

So why was color brought into this?

 

[Enron]

Is this accurate?

---

And to your first point about making it harder to get guns would directly result in criminals finding it more difficult to get them...No, it wouldn't. There would be an even bigger black market for them and as a result of the black market and even higher crime rate. Example, see Andy's point on banning drugs.

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So why was color brought into this?

I thought you posted a black man to counter Swag's post.

 

[swag]

I thought you posted a black man to counter Swag's post.

Me too.

Actually, the great irony is that for many who want to protect their families and are worried about being burgled, often a more effective tactic is a better home network firewall with phishing detection over the commodity home router they have. But that's not nearly as sexy.

 

[Bjerknes]

@Bjerknes

The Amero.

There are folks who want to see something like that occur. What a disaster that would be.

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Is this accurate?

@Ocelot Do Europeans calculate unemployment rates similarly to the US government? For instance, do they exclude some people as out of the labor force if they aren't employed within a year? What's the calculation?

 

[Seven]

Why is it a stupid argument? Do criminals break the law or not regardless what the law is? That's why they are criminals.

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I came here to debate but Andy already made the point that Europe is having its fair share of economic woes that pretty much closes the door on most arguments you folks have against US policies IMO.

As far as violence...its getting worse with the immigration issue you folks have there, as it is here too, and that is one of the reasons we crazy republicans here want to curb the immigration numbers so we don't get what you guys are getting there right now. Eventually you will have those unwilling to assimilate and pose their views in their communities followed by unavoidable clashes. You will find that kind of tension anywhere in human history.

The only way your argument makes any sensr is if you favour an isolationist capitalism. Good luck with that.

Same thing with other mass shootings. So using the criminal element in the US is to defend the occurrence of mass shootings in the US is largely irrelevant, since the groups aren't one and the same.

Look at nations with large gun bans. Criminals still get weapons, yet there aren't mass shootings at the frequency of the US. Criminals always have weapons, it's the other guys we need to worry about.

I'd say your problem is that you are a breeding ground for the insane.

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You didn't get the point. Shocker.



We have a nation-wide drug ban apart from a few states. A lot of it comes through Mexico, while others decide to cook it up in their basements. How's that ban working out for us? Pretty poorly, I'd say.

You can ban anything you want. Doesn't mean the ban will be effective. And as such, nobody has a right to tell the American people you can't protect yourself against crimes, especially when the government commits atrocities around the world and has their employees guarded by firearms as well. The 2nd amendment is a constitutional right and it had better stay that way.

Why doesn't someone start a mental illness thread when a mass-shooting occurs?

So tell me. Why all the crazies?

 

[king Ale]

You didn't get the point. Shocker.



We have a nation-wide drug ban apart from a few states. A lot of it comes through Mexico, while others decide to cook it up in their basements. How's that ban working out for us? Pretty poorly, I'd say.

You can ban anything you want. Doesn't mean the ban will be effective. And as such, nobody has a right to tell the American people you can't protect yourself against crimes, especially when the government commits atrocities around the world and has their employees guarded by firearms as well. The 2nd amendment is a constitutional right and it had better stay that way.

Why doesn't someone start a mental illness thread when a mass-shooting occurs?

Your Chicago argument is very naive and screams lack of basic understanding of logic. What's more sad is that you really think you proved a point with that argument.

Also, mentally ill people are everywhere in the world. These incidents however are pretty much unique to the US. Not saying guns alone are at fault but having appropriate gun laws is a necessity (but clearly not a sufficiency), a start (to cure, not the cure), and a matter of common sense.

 

[Seven]

Your Chicago argument is very naive and screams lack of basic understanding of logic. What's more sad is that you really think you proved a point with that argument.

Also, mentally ill people are everywhere in the world. These incidents however are pretty much unique to the US. Not saying guns alone are at fault but having appropriate gun laws is a necessity (but clearly not a sufficiency), a start (to cure, not the cure), and a matter of common sense.

The mentally ill are very visible in America though. Sure, there are crazy homeless people in Belgium too. But I somehow get the impression that because America is a land of extremes it must be easy to become confused as an adolescent or twentysomething. I sure am glad that I didn't grow up in America, even if I have absolutely loved my time there and wouldn't mind living there either.

 

[king Ale]

The mentally ill are very visible in America though. Sure, there are crazy homeless people in Belgium too. But I somehow get the impression that because America is a land of extremes it must be easy to become confused as an adolescent or twentysomething. I sure am glad that I didn't grow up in America, even if I have absolutely loved my time there and wouldn't mind living there either.

What? How? And what does crazy have to do with homeless? I don't recall the last time a homeless person was involved in such incidents as Oregon's shooting. So where I walk from home to school everyday is basically home to the homeless, and they are only what they are; homeless. Given the population, European countries have their own fair share of crazies, wouldn't make me wish to have grown up there on the basis of that.

 

[Seven]

What? How? And what does crazy have to do with homeless? I don't recall the last time a homeless person was involved in such incidents as Oregon's shooting. So where I walk from home to school everyday is basically home to the homeless, and they are only what they are; homeless. Given the population, European countries have their own fair share of crazies, wouldn't make me wish to have grown up there on the basis of that.

Homelessness does correlate with mental illness. It might be politically correct to say it doesn't and you could day correlation is not causation, but there are exponentially more mentally ill people among the homeless than among the general population. Substance abuse issues and schizophrenia are the things that come to mind.