Serious Discussion Regarding Racism (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
- Start date
slightlyAs for racism, I dont think calling a player "mercenary" is a racism...at least in our forum...
Like we called Emerson and Thuram mercenaries, we did with Ibra!!!
wow. ouch. scoreboard? 
:wth:
i didnt think we could get away with talking to someone like that here, but either way i dont think this thread brings any good or productive material to the site.
its just ppl (including myself) accusing/downplaying/denying (whatever you want to call it) the subject at hand. and now the insults such as the above begin to fly.
:wth: i didnt think we could get away with talking to someone like that here, but either way i dont think this thread brings any good or productive material to the site.
its just ppl (including myself) accusing/downplaying/denying (whatever you want to call it) the subject at hand. and now the insults such as the above begin to fly.
First of all, denco, it's good to see back from your hiatus as you are a good member of this forum. I've always thought of you as an objective member when it came to football matters, especially regarding Juventus. So that's why I'm just a little surprised to hear this noise coming from you.
It's hard for me to give it a rest when all your interactions with me over the course of the last few months has been about this matter we are discussing here. You came back, which is very good to see, but I can't help but feel your first few posts after your hiatus were simply to provoke something once again. When you're laughing like a hyena to one of my posts stating I don't want Emerson back, I know exactly where you're going with it.
But the thing is, denco, you began your rant in a newborn thread in which I was really the only person who was blasting the likes of Emerson. I don't remember the exact nature of it, but it really seemed like you were directing your criticism to me, for the reason stated above. I recall obtaining a response from you rather quickly and there was absolutely no mention of you specifically saying I was not the supposed cause of this, so of course I'm naturally going to ask what is up and defend myself. It's not like this a deer caught in the headlights situation... only someone who is trying to ward off what seemed like personal attacks.
I demanded evidence of this supposed racism several times from you, however nothing of the sort was ever posted and if I recall correctly I only remember you using these same arguments against me, which can be found below. You should have realized I was defending myself from what seemed like accusations against me. However, I did not rule out the possibility of there being problems such as those you stated... I only asked for evidence which you never provided.
Yes, that is indeed true. But I have explained myself time and time again that it is my personal opinion that Africa should not be given an extra spot due to their recent performances in World Cups, and that the fringe countries that would benefit from such an expansion are no better than, say, the other nations that would be hurt by an amended allocation, specifically the last spot in South America. As we have seen even in Germany last year, a team like Ecuador can certainly hold their own, while the likes of Paraguay have the talent to do some damage. Angola nor Togo would never have a chance of progression in the World Cup at this point in time.
Morever, the main reason why people wanted to give another spot to Africa was because of the desperate situation of many countries in the continent that is considered the World's test lab and fuck-over buddy. As horrendous as this is, countries in South America also face similar problems regarding poverty and the like. And considering this is football here, with governing body of internation football being FIFA, not the UN... it does not make sense to use arguments of morals to allocate football power. No matter what, some entity involved with the decision will be hurt, as there is no perfect system in holding a tournament.
Furthermore, while I rejected the appeals to give Africa another spot, I defended the current allocation of spots to Asia and also South America. Although I have never been to said continents, I'm rather certain those places have people of color too. Perhaps I should simply lobby for allocating spots to only countries that have a population consisting of 90% caucasians, thus throwing my own United States out of the drawing.
There is a logical explanation for that, one that upsets me as well. Cannavaro and Zambrotta had just come off of winning the World Cup for the Azzurri, so of course a football forum with 90% Italia fans would not be very angry with said players at the time. However, after the World Cup hangover wore off, people started paying more attention to Juventus again and thus found the real truth. That's the way it is, unfortunately. People are blinded by winning.
That's not true, as I have posted a few articles with comments from Thuram. In case you have forgotten, Lilian was one of the first players to announce that he wanted to leave Juventus during the Calciopoli scandal. He was able to push his way through the doors rather easily, and once he was out, he decided to let the media know how exactly he felt about Juventus. Thuram essentially stated that, no matter what, Juventus deserves their punishment and he was happy he was able to jump ship. Moreover, he did not really seem to care, which is what upset me the most. For a guy who wore the captain's armband for Juventus, the least he could do was show a little respect. Afterall, he never really deserved the armband anyway..
Perhaps mercenary is not the best word for him, however it works for me. Even during his days at Juventus there were similar signs of apathy to the club. This has nothing to do with race... it's simply an opinion shared by a bunch of people. The most hated player at Juventus over the past two years, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, is considered to be white... I would love to hear how this is simply due to racism as well.
Emerson is a mercenary, no question. The guy follows Capello around like a Belgian Mastiff and was always deeply concerned with his own wages more than anything else. Davids left Juventus on the basis of wage demands, supposedly, however I'm not really sure about his situation. I can't find myself calling him a mercenary though.
Uhh, I'll let my buddy Azzurri7 handle this one.
By your demeanor while discussing this with me over the months, it certainly seemed like you were alluding to such an stance...
But whatever the case, people can have their own opinions on anything.
It's hard for me to give it a rest when all your interactions with me over the course of the last few months has been about this matter we are discussing here. You came back, which is very good to see, but I can't help but feel your first few posts after your hiatus were simply to provoke something once again. When you're laughing like a hyena to one of my posts stating I don't want Emerson back, I know exactly where you're going with it.
But the thing is, denco, you began your rant in a newborn thread in which I was really the only person who was blasting the likes of Emerson. I don't remember the exact nature of it, but it really seemed like you were directing your criticism to me, for the reason stated above. I recall obtaining a response from you rather quickly and there was absolutely no mention of you specifically saying I was not the supposed cause of this, so of course I'm naturally going to ask what is up and defend myself. It's not like this a deer caught in the headlights situation... only someone who is trying to ward off what seemed like personal attacks.
I demanded evidence of this supposed racism several times from you, however nothing of the sort was ever posted and if I recall correctly I only remember you using these same arguments against me, which can be found below. You should have realized I was defending myself from what seemed like accusations against me. However, I did not rule out the possibility of there being problems such as those you stated... I only asked for evidence which you never provided.
Yes, that is indeed true. But I have explained myself time and time again that it is my personal opinion that Africa should not be given an extra spot due to their recent performances in World Cups, and that the fringe countries that would benefit from such an expansion are no better than, say, the other nations that would be hurt by an amended allocation, specifically the last spot in South America. As we have seen even in Germany last year, a team like Ecuador can certainly hold their own, while the likes of Paraguay have the talent to do some damage. Angola nor Togo would never have a chance of progression in the World Cup at this point in time.
Morever, the main reason why people wanted to give another spot to Africa was because of the desperate situation of many countries in the continent that is considered the World's test lab and fuck-over buddy. As horrendous as this is, countries in South America also face similar problems regarding poverty and the like. And considering this is football here, with governing body of internation football being FIFA, not the UN... it does not make sense to use arguments of morals to allocate football power. No matter what, some entity involved with the decision will be hurt, as there is no perfect system in holding a tournament.
Furthermore, while I rejected the appeals to give Africa another spot, I defended the current allocation of spots to Asia and also South America. Although I have never been to said continents, I'm rather certain those places have people of color too. Perhaps I should simply lobby for allocating spots to only countries that have a population consisting of 90% caucasians, thus throwing my own United States out of the drawing.
There is a logical explanation for that, one that upsets me as well. Cannavaro and Zambrotta had just come off of winning the World Cup for the Azzurri, so of course a football forum with 90% Italia fans would not be very angry with said players at the time. However, after the World Cup hangover wore off, people started paying more attention to Juventus again and thus found the real truth. That's the way it is, unfortunately. People are blinded by winning.
That's not true, as I have posted a few articles with comments from Thuram. In case you have forgotten, Lilian was one of the first players to announce that he wanted to leave Juventus during the Calciopoli scandal. He was able to push his way through the doors rather easily, and once he was out, he decided to let the media know how exactly he felt about Juventus. Thuram essentially stated that, no matter what, Juventus deserves their punishment and he was happy he was able to jump ship. Moreover, he did not really seem to care, which is what upset me the most. For a guy who wore the captain's armband for Juventus, the least he could do was show a little respect. Afterall, he never really deserved the armband anyway..
Perhaps mercenary is not the best word for him, however it works for me. Even during his days at Juventus there were similar signs of apathy to the club. This has nothing to do with race... it's simply an opinion shared by a bunch of people. The most hated player at Juventus over the past two years, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, is considered to be white... I would love to hear how this is simply due to racism as well.
Emerson is a mercenary, no question. The guy follows Capello around like a Belgian Mastiff and was always deeply concerned with his own wages more than anything else. Davids left Juventus on the basis of wage demands, supposedly, however I'm not really sure about his situation. I can't find myself calling him a mercenary though.
Uhh, I'll let my buddy Azzurri7 handle this one.By your demeanor while discussing this with me over the months, it certainly seemed like you were alluding to such an stance...
But whatever the case, people can have their own opinions on anything.
First of all, denco, it's good to see back from your hiatus as you are a good member of this forum. I've always thought of you as an objective member when it came to football matters, especially regarding Juventus. So that's why I'm just a little surprised to hear this noise coming from you.
It's hard for me to give it a rest when all your interactions with me over the course of the last few months has been about this matter we are discussing here. You came back, which is very good to see, but I can't help but feel your first few posts after your hiatus were simply to provoke something once again. When you're laughing like a hyena to one of my posts stating I don't want Emerson back, I know exactly where you're going with it.
But the thing is, denco, you began your rant in a newborn thread in which I was really the only person who was blasting the likes of Emerson. I don't remember the exact nature of it, but it really seemed like you were directing your criticism to me, for the reason stated above. I recall obtaining a response from you rather quickly and there was absolutely no mention of you specifically saying I was not the supposed cause of this, so of course I'm naturally going to ask what is up and defend myself. It's not like this a deer caught in the headlights situation... only someone who is trying to ward off what seemed like personal attacks.
I demanded evidence of this supposed racism several times from you, however nothing of the sort was ever posted and if I recall correctly I only remember you using these same arguments against me, which can be found below. You should have realized I was defending myself from what seemed like accusations against me. However, I did not rule out the possibility of there being problems such as those you stated... I only asked for evidence which you never provided.
Yes, that is indeed true. But I have explained myself time and time again that it is my personal opinion that Africa should not be given an extra spot due to their recent performances in World Cups, and that the fringe countries that would benefit from such an expansion are no better than, say, the other nations that would be hurt by an amended allocation, specifically the last spot in South America. As we have seen even in Germany last year, a team like Ecuador can certainly hold their own, while the likes of Paraguay have the talent to do some damage. Angola nor Togo would never have a chance of progression in the World Cup at this point in time.
Morever, the main reason why people wanted to give another spot to Africa was because of the desperate situation of many countries in the continent that is considered the World's test lab and fuck-over buddy. As horrendous as this is, countries in South America also face similar problems regarding poverty and the like. And considering this is football here, with governing body of internation football being FIFA, not the UN... it does not make sense to use arguments of morals to allocate football power. No matter what, some entity involved with the decision will be hurt, as there is no perfect system in holding a tournament.
Furthermore, while I rejected the appeals to give Africa another spot, I defended the current allocation of spots to Asia and also South America. Although I have never been to said continents, I'm rather certain those places have people of color too. Perhaps I should simply lobby for allocating spots to only countries that have a population consisting of 90% caucasians, thus throwing my own United States out of the drawing.
There is a logical explanation for that, one that upsets me as well. Cannavaro and Zambrotta had just come off of winning the World Cup for the Azzurri, so of course a football forum with 90% Italia fans would not be very angry with said players at the time. However, after the World Cup hangover wore off, people started paying more attention to Juventus again and thus found the real truth. That's the way it is, unfortunately. People are blinded by winning.
That's not true, as I have posted a few articles with comments from Thuram. In case you have forgotten, Lilian was one of the first players to announce that he wanted to leave Juventus during the Calciopoli scandal. He was able to push his way through the doors rather easily, and once he was out, he decided to let the media know how exactly he felt about Juventus. Thuram essentially stated that, no matter what, Juventus deserves their punishment and he was happy he was able to jump ship. Moreover, he did not really seem to care, which is what upset me the most. For a guy who wore the captain's armband for Juventus, the least he could do was show a little respect. Afterall, he never really deserved the armband anyway..
Perhaps mercenary is not the best word for him, however it works for me. Even during his days at Juventus there were similar signs of apathy to the club. This has nothing to do with race... it's simply an opinion shared by a bunch of people. The most hated player at Juventus over the past two years, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, is considered to be white... I would love to hear how this is simply due to racism as well.
Emerson is a mercenary, no question. The guy follows Capello around like a Belgian Mastiff and was always deeply concerned with his own wages more than anything else. Davids left Juventus on the basis of wage demands, supposedly, however I'm not really sure about his situation. I can't find myself calling him a mercenary though.
Uhh, I'll let my buddy Azzurri7 handle this one.
By your demeanor while discussing this with me over the months, it certainly seemed like you were alluding to such an stance...
But whatever the case, people can have their own opinions on anything.
It's hard for me to give it a rest when all your interactions with me over the course of the last few months has been about this matter we are discussing here. You came back, which is very good to see, but I can't help but feel your first few posts after your hiatus were simply to provoke something once again. When you're laughing like a hyena to one of my posts stating I don't want Emerson back, I know exactly where you're going with it.
But the thing is, denco, you began your rant in a newborn thread in which I was really the only person who was blasting the likes of Emerson. I don't remember the exact nature of it, but it really seemed like you were directing your criticism to me, for the reason stated above. I recall obtaining a response from you rather quickly and there was absolutely no mention of you specifically saying I was not the supposed cause of this, so of course I'm naturally going to ask what is up and defend myself. It's not like this a deer caught in the headlights situation... only someone who is trying to ward off what seemed like personal attacks.
I demanded evidence of this supposed racism several times from you, however nothing of the sort was ever posted and if I recall correctly I only remember you using these same arguments against me, which can be found below. You should have realized I was defending myself from what seemed like accusations against me. However, I did not rule out the possibility of there being problems such as those you stated... I only asked for evidence which you never provided.
Yes, that is indeed true. But I have explained myself time and time again that it is my personal opinion that Africa should not be given an extra spot due to their recent performances in World Cups, and that the fringe countries that would benefit from such an expansion are no better than, say, the other nations that would be hurt by an amended allocation, specifically the last spot in South America. As we have seen even in Germany last year, a team like Ecuador can certainly hold their own, while the likes of Paraguay have the talent to do some damage. Angola nor Togo would never have a chance of progression in the World Cup at this point in time.
Morever, the main reason why people wanted to give another spot to Africa was because of the desperate situation of many countries in the continent that is considered the World's test lab and fuck-over buddy. As horrendous as this is, countries in South America also face similar problems regarding poverty and the like. And considering this is football here, with governing body of internation football being FIFA, not the UN... it does not make sense to use arguments of morals to allocate football power. No matter what, some entity involved with the decision will be hurt, as there is no perfect system in holding a tournament.
Furthermore, while I rejected the appeals to give Africa another spot, I defended the current allocation of spots to Asia and also South America. Although I have never been to said continents, I'm rather certain those places have people of color too. Perhaps I should simply lobby for allocating spots to only countries that have a population consisting of 90% caucasians, thus throwing my own United States out of the drawing.
There is a logical explanation for that, one that upsets me as well. Cannavaro and Zambrotta had just come off of winning the World Cup for the Azzurri, so of course a football forum with 90% Italia fans would not be very angry with said players at the time. However, after the World Cup hangover wore off, people started paying more attention to Juventus again and thus found the real truth. That's the way it is, unfortunately. People are blinded by winning.
That's not true, as I have posted a few articles with comments from Thuram. In case you have forgotten, Lilian was one of the first players to announce that he wanted to leave Juventus during the Calciopoli scandal. He was able to push his way through the doors rather easily, and once he was out, he decided to let the media know how exactly he felt about Juventus. Thuram essentially stated that, no matter what, Juventus deserves their punishment and he was happy he was able to jump ship. Moreover, he did not really seem to care, which is what upset me the most. For a guy who wore the captain's armband for Juventus, the least he could do was show a little respect. Afterall, he never really deserved the armband anyway..
Perhaps mercenary is not the best word for him, however it works for me. Even during his days at Juventus there were similar signs of apathy to the club. This has nothing to do with race... it's simply an opinion shared by a bunch of people. The most hated player at Juventus over the past two years, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, is considered to be white... I would love to hear how this is simply due to racism as well.
Emerson is a mercenary, no question. The guy follows Capello around like a Belgian Mastiff and was always deeply concerned with his own wages more than anything else. Davids left Juventus on the basis of wage demands, supposedly, however I'm not really sure about his situation. I can't find myself calling him a mercenary though.
Uhh, I'll let my buddy Azzurri7 handle this one.By your demeanor while discussing this with me over the months, it certainly seemed like you were alluding to such an stance...
But whatever the case, people can have their own opinions on anything.
Your explanation of Thuram being a mercenary is not adequate as you started calling him that long before the scandal and what he may or may not have said about our plight.
How is Emerson a merc , if he turned down more money to go to madrid initially to join us? Why is ait a crime to follow a guy you regard as your mentor about?
I know as fans people are disappointed that all those players left but i for 1 do not blame any of them at all as it was not their play or dedication that put us in serieB, it was the betrayal of Moggi and co
The African issue is not pertinent at all as the only way i was refering to is their football abilities not because they may have been wronged by big pharmaceutical companies
How can you say Ecuador and Paraguay added to the entertainment of the wc, they were as much rubbish as togo and angola who should never have been there in the first place. Cameroun, Nigeria and Egypt would have been so much better
I saw a quote about your rant about Guiseppe Rossi as well and this is how you open yourself up to allegations, what has Rossi's decision not to play for U.S , got to do with being good enough to play for Juventus? Othe rinstances are your stance in the world cup when a team comes against The US team just made for astonishing read. You had a go at Italians and it just felt too emotional for it not to be questioned. From some of your posts, you aint too fond of the English either
You still have not yet provided any proof of Thuram being a mercenary as my definition of mercenary is being at a certain job for the sole benefit of money and I am still to see proof of his being a mercenary
Now David Beckham leaving the biggest club in the world to go play for a club that will struggle to be in the top 1000 in the world and for the money he is reputed to be offered is a different matter.
Zlatan like you said is the most hated player on this forum and the sole reason for that is that there are far more Dp fans that football fans on this forum, so in that case there is a genuine reason. If Zlatan was on the bench and Dp was always starting ,i guarantee you, the ill feeling towards him would not have been as much, no matter how well they would like to deny it here, his greatest crime was denying the darling of juve from playing more. Secondary reasons was that he was not scoring or doing stupid things on the pitch or whatever reasons were given on here but primarily its because he was in the way of a hero
Now when you start having a go at certain players, and when i say you, i do not mean you personally, then i start having to look for reasons for it.
Your explanations of 90% being too happy celebrating Italy's win does not wash, too flimsy
For the last time quit your protestations, noone as far as i know is outing you as anything, but if you keep protesting way too loudly and then you come up with some of the things you post then people will start to look a little closely
For your information, i criticise a lot of black players, but its based on their lack of ability not calling things which i am not certain they are and criticising them for asking for things that their white counterparts ask for and get
Completely unrelated topic here but can you please tell me what Kallou was like in the Dutch league as judging by his performances , i am totally mystified as to why Van Basten was eager for him to play for Holland as he has pace and all with some good technique but has so far exhibited very little brain cells in his decision making at chelsea
No, you quit your insistance on foraging through my past posts trying to find any sort of racial discrimination at all, thus making me have to write ridiculously long posts explaining myself again. That, along with my misinterpretation of who you were directing your criticism towards, are the main problems here. You could have just came out and said you weren't directing it all to me when you had the chance instead if trying to incite something by looking into my past about Africa.
i hate thuram with a passion not because he's black but because he is an asshole and he was ripping on juventus after he left. i read an article saying Cannavaro was sold by juventus he did not jump ship. I do not know if thats true but at least canna never said anything bad about juve. i also dont like thuram because he was one of the guys who couldnt accept defeat in the world cup. him and Gallas both said italy sucked and that france was the best team in the world and they complained the ref was unfair. If anything the ref favored France in the final. Thats why i hate thuram it has nothing to do with his race.
Lou, it's a serious discussion. Serious discussions are for people who do not believe that eating an apple caused everything wrong in this world.
Anyway on a related note: what was God planning to do with that apple? It really must have been something special. Or was he just teasing Adam and Eve? And if they really were in such a paradise, then why were they so bored that the apple suddenly became interesting? What would you want to do with all that knowledge if you can have fun all eternity?
Anyway on a related note: what was God planning to do with that apple? It really must have been something special. Or was he just teasing Adam and Eve? And if they really were in such a paradise, then why were they so bored that the apple suddenly became interesting? What would you want to do with all that knowledge if you can have fun all eternity?
