[SERIE A] JUVENTUS vs Roma (11/01/08) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mark
- Start date
Dear Adnan, i dont know if you have been around and happened to notice my posts and my views in these matters, i have extensively explained my views on these matters, that are in question right now.
Although i dont have a problem to repeat my self, so that you and every other Juventino have the opportunity to share my views.
However, there are few members,(like Jack
) who criticize me for that. Because they know what i have to say and they dont have the patience to go through this again...
So if i will not analyze my view in detail, feel free to ask for smth i fail to explain properly, but since respect every ones opinion and judgment, i feel obligated to evolve myself with a discussion that might appear as repetition to some...
Besides this why i am here for, to discuss with my fellow Juventini for the issues of our team;
Yes, Capello did used this flat 4-4-2 using two DMs, naming Emerson and Vieira or lower some occasional lower material Defensive Midfielders.
And yes he won with them ,but that doesnt proves anything today, as it does not applies in our current situation!
DMs; Those players have no creativity skills, their first and outmost priority is to defend and shut down our midfield, destroying our opponents gameplay!
Back on Capello's days, in our wings we had some of the best wingers in the world. A younger Neddy and a younger Camo. They could create enough chances, so that we could overwhelm the lesser teams and even triumph against similar or better teams,
defending with two lines, or world class midfielders and world class defenders
and creating some dangerous counterattacks, with Neddy's and Camo's runs and Zambro's crosses.
Naturally this world class team could overcome most of the serie A team, we were by far the best team in the league, material wise and this double defense allowed very very few teams to beat or resist against us.
Therefore we dominated the championship!
BUT, on the other hand, even then, there were voices against who opted for an alternative plan. Because this effective but one dimensional plan, simply failed against an organized defensive team. Our players couldnt go past their defenses and their only hope was to try those desperate and hopeless long balls.
The need for a a playmaker, an AMF if you like, or a third forward was born.
But still Crapello instisted on the same scheme no matter the adversary.
This formation encourages long balls, because our central midfielders cannot dribble or pass, since they are not equipped for this job.
If our adversaries shut down our wings, we are totally cut of, our forward cannot communicate with our midfield because of the unpenetrable wall that stands between them and our midfield.
So our midfielders and wing backs only had one choice, to cross!!!
This tactic can be efficient in teams, esp designed to apply this game,
like the EPL teams, but we cannot be as effective as they are, because this is the only thing they are capable of and they can do it best!!
So if we were about to face a quality team, that knows how to defends and uses the crosses and the air game to their advantage, we were totally hopeless.
despite Lazio and occasionally Milan, the only teams able to deliver such a game where the rising EPL teams in the CL.
Liverpool only proved that theory, even if we were to play 100 games with them, we couldnt win by using their tactics, despite the fact that we had a marginally material advantage.
So this tactic met her limits. It failed under the best possible conditions.
Having the best players and the best coach to apply wasnt enough.
HOW THE HELL, WILL BE ENOUGH TODAY???
We have a mediocre team, with a mediocre coach and (bar a few our aging champions) mediocre material!
What are we expecting to win with this tactic???
Even then we couldnt react and deliver any more then our standard performance, but that was enough to beat most of the middle to good serie A team and handle as the championship.
With this material, it is not enough anymore! We have to adapt!!!
DD also used the same tactic, he was a young inexperienced coach, who was probably afraid to make his own formation and since he had the remnants of a champions team in his hands and still the best quality team in serie B, he also opted for this scheme!
BUT we are back in serie A now, without the abundance of champions we once had. We need to adapt and as our managers said, we need to bring the people back to the stadium, playing attractive football.
Gigli said that playing offensive football is our priority and even if that means to sacrifice smth of our solidarity.
This is the very reason we refuse to fix our midfield and buy a new high profile forward every year!
We need to adapt and build a new team, we have new funds and a 5year plan/period to build up a new strong and competitive Juve.
CR failed miserable to meet our main objectives, our priorities,
his coaching makes as struggle against inferior team and we depend to the determination and the brilliance of our aging champions to go forward.
But they cant do that forever.
What happens when they retire???
Those champions have been through hell and back, they were eager to prove that they are champions, even without Moggi, this is why DP, Neddy, Treze and Buffon took us from the hand and guided us to a CL qualification spot single handed.
CR was trying hard to stop them down, but they had to overcome him and his tactics and deliver miracles.
This cant go on forever though.
We keep bringing mediocre players and our champions percentage has been dangerously deluded, we need to create a new team, able to deliver without those stars. Without Neddy running up and down for 90' and DP scoring those extraterrestrial FKs.
We need to come up with a tactical plan, to give our player a specific role, when most of them right know running like headless chicken when they are having the ball, because they simply dont know what to do with it!
A CM, or AMF or even an offensive DM, would balance our team, help us go forward more effectively, link our forward line with the rest of our team
and force our opponents to pull back, when facing a multi-dimensional attacking front, who threatens their team from all directions, both the flank and the middle,
thats exactly what we did for the last matches, with Neddy and Tiago orchistrating our midfield!!
We got the results we were missing and everybody agrees its any eye candy too!
In my eyes and others, it was painfully obvious that this was the solution and we have been waiting for this for ages!!
I will def not praise CR for denying us this formation all this time and only use it now, because our injuries forced his hand to do so!!!
But i will praise if his open his eyes and realize, that this is the way to go and keep using this formation, when the rest of our defensive midfielders return from injuries!
We dont have Ronaldos and Robbens, so dont compare us with Real and Manure,
we dont even have Camo atm and Neddy cannot be our hero and deliver us each and every single game, creating what our DMs and wing backs cant and defending where Molinaro and the rest of hilarious defense cant!
We are supposed to find a permanent solution and not quick fixes!
This formation has been proved problematic, both last year and this year.
And it also failed in Europe, under the best possible conditions!
It serves us with no advantages, for the present or the future, it is totally pointless to keep on like that. But CR insists on this and i will def not praise him for that, because he is responsible for single point point we have lost because of his tactical choice!
Last year he had his chance to experiment and try out this scheme,
but it failed and he dialed to realize that and fix it!
There is nothing else i need to see here, he has always been a loser and we can see that there is a very good reason behind that!!
So, allow me not praise him, for his mistakes, these victories only proved him wrong in my eyes!
And there is no time praise no one yet, we have only won 18 points in 10 match days, almost the half possible we could, at this rate we wont make it to the CL positions!
We still have a post x-mas crisis ahead, that almost cost us the season last year
and this time, have you forgotten how much we did struggled after the second part of the season last year? And if it wasnt for the fact the our opponents lost more points than us, we wouldnt be in the CL.
We wont fight with the determination of the fallen champions, because we proved our point last year!
Lucky for us Milan last year and Roma this year are a mere shadow of themselves!
But we must look at ourselves first and improve as a team,
we cant depend on them sucking every year, we have to stand up and i am afraid that CR is not the man for job!
Although i dont have a problem to repeat my self, so that you and every other Juventino have the opportunity to share my views.
However, there are few members,(like Jack
) who criticize me for that. Because they know what i have to say and they dont have the patience to go through this again...So if i will not analyze my view in detail, feel free to ask for smth i fail to explain properly, but since respect every ones opinion and judgment, i feel obligated to evolve myself with a discussion that might appear as repetition to some...
Besides this why i am here for, to discuss with my fellow Juventini for the issues of our team;
Yes, Capello did used this flat 4-4-2 using two DMs, naming Emerson and Vieira or lower some occasional lower material Defensive Midfielders.
And yes he won with them ,but that doesnt proves anything today, as it does not applies in our current situation!
DMs; Those players have no creativity skills, their first and outmost priority is to defend and shut down our midfield, destroying our opponents gameplay!
Back on Capello's days, in our wings we had some of the best wingers in the world. A younger Neddy and a younger Camo. They could create enough chances, so that we could overwhelm the lesser teams and even triumph against similar or better teams,
defending with two lines, or world class midfielders and world class defenders
and creating some dangerous counterattacks, with Neddy's and Camo's runs and Zambro's crosses.
Naturally this world class team could overcome most of the serie A team, we were by far the best team in the league, material wise and this double defense allowed very very few teams to beat or resist against us.
Therefore we dominated the championship!
BUT, on the other hand, even then, there were voices against who opted for an alternative plan. Because this effective but one dimensional plan, simply failed against an organized defensive team. Our players couldnt go past their defenses and their only hope was to try those desperate and hopeless long balls.
The need for a a playmaker, an AMF if you like, or a third forward was born.
But still Crapello instisted on the same scheme no matter the adversary.
This formation encourages long balls, because our central midfielders cannot dribble or pass, since they are not equipped for this job.
If our adversaries shut down our wings, we are totally cut of, our forward cannot communicate with our midfield because of the unpenetrable wall that stands between them and our midfield.
So our midfielders and wing backs only had one choice, to cross!!!
This tactic can be efficient in teams, esp designed to apply this game,
like the EPL teams, but we cannot be as effective as they are, because this is the only thing they are capable of and they can do it best!!
So if we were about to face a quality team, that knows how to defends and uses the crosses and the air game to their advantage, we were totally hopeless.
despite Lazio and occasionally Milan, the only teams able to deliver such a game where the rising EPL teams in the CL.
Liverpool only proved that theory, even if we were to play 100 games with them, we couldnt win by using their tactics, despite the fact that we had a marginally material advantage.
So this tactic met her limits. It failed under the best possible conditions.
Having the best players and the best coach to apply wasnt enough.
HOW THE HELL, WILL BE ENOUGH TODAY???
We have a mediocre team, with a mediocre coach and (bar a few our aging champions) mediocre material!
What are we expecting to win with this tactic???
Even then we couldnt react and deliver any more then our standard performance, but that was enough to beat most of the middle to good serie A team and handle as the championship.
With this material, it is not enough anymore! We have to adapt!!!
DD also used the same tactic, he was a young inexperienced coach, who was probably afraid to make his own formation and since he had the remnants of a champions team in his hands and still the best quality team in serie B, he also opted for this scheme!
BUT we are back in serie A now, without the abundance of champions we once had. We need to adapt and as our managers said, we need to bring the people back to the stadium, playing attractive football.
Gigli said that playing offensive football is our priority and even if that means to sacrifice smth of our solidarity.
This is the very reason we refuse to fix our midfield and buy a new high profile forward every year!
We need to adapt and build a new team, we have new funds and a 5year plan/period to build up a new strong and competitive Juve.
CR failed miserable to meet our main objectives, our priorities,
his coaching makes as struggle against inferior team and we depend to the determination and the brilliance of our aging champions to go forward.
But they cant do that forever.
What happens when they retire???
Those champions have been through hell and back, they were eager to prove that they are champions, even without Moggi, this is why DP, Neddy, Treze and Buffon took us from the hand and guided us to a CL qualification spot single handed.
CR was trying hard to stop them down, but they had to overcome him and his tactics and deliver miracles.
This cant go on forever though.
We keep bringing mediocre players and our champions percentage has been dangerously deluded, we need to create a new team, able to deliver without those stars. Without Neddy running up and down for 90' and DP scoring those extraterrestrial FKs.
We need to come up with a tactical plan, to give our player a specific role, when most of them right know running like headless chicken when they are having the ball, because they simply dont know what to do with it!
A CM, or AMF or even an offensive DM, would balance our team, help us go forward more effectively, link our forward line with the rest of our team
and force our opponents to pull back, when facing a multi-dimensional attacking front, who threatens their team from all directions, both the flank and the middle,
thats exactly what we did for the last matches, with Neddy and Tiago orchistrating our midfield!!
We got the results we were missing and everybody agrees its any eye candy too!
In my eyes and others, it was painfully obvious that this was the solution and we have been waiting for this for ages!!
I will def not praise CR for denying us this formation all this time and only use it now, because our injuries forced his hand to do so!!!
But i will praise if his open his eyes and realize, that this is the way to go and keep using this formation, when the rest of our defensive midfielders return from injuries!
We dont have Ronaldos and Robbens, so dont compare us with Real and Manure,
we dont even have Camo atm and Neddy cannot be our hero and deliver us each and every single game, creating what our DMs and wing backs cant and defending where Molinaro and the rest of hilarious defense cant!
We are supposed to find a permanent solution and not quick fixes!
This formation has been proved problematic, both last year and this year.
And it also failed in Europe, under the best possible conditions!
It serves us with no advantages, for the present or the future, it is totally pointless to keep on like that. But CR insists on this and i will def not praise him for that, because he is responsible for single point point we have lost because of his tactical choice!
Last year he had his chance to experiment and try out this scheme,
but it failed and he dialed to realize that and fix it!
There is nothing else i need to see here, he has always been a loser and we can see that there is a very good reason behind that!!
So, allow me not praise him, for his mistakes, these victories only proved him wrong in my eyes!
And there is no time praise no one yet, we have only won 18 points in 10 match days, almost the half possible we could, at this rate we wont make it to the CL positions!
We still have a post x-mas crisis ahead, that almost cost us the season last year
and this time, have you forgotten how much we did struggled after the second part of the season last year? And if it wasnt for the fact the our opponents lost more points than us, we wouldnt be in the CL.
We wont fight with the determination of the fallen champions, because we proved our point last year!
Lucky for us Milan last year and Roma this year are a mere shadow of themselves!
But we must look at ourselves first and improve as a team,
we cant depend on them sucking every year, we have to stand up and i am afraid that CR is not the man for job!
Dear God, what an assay...
dear cronios,
your posts are always nice to read and most of the time i can understand what you are trying to say and what are the intentions and thoughts behind your opinion, but i think it is really sad that you are so unable to change or adjust your mind over ranieri.
he is no world beater and every guy in this forum knows better formations and so on ...
but even when he does exactly what your fantasy formations (the time he played giovinco as trequartista) you bash him as if you did always know better even if that was exactly the fans favourite formation.
you did see that this formation was not the super cool formation that made us bash the opponent so please do not always think being a coach is as simple as playing football manager games.
in the football manager game you would probably be angry and shout "baaah, that game is total crap", when you lose with a team of stars and your fantasy formation and would probably stop playing it.
in life you can not always predict the outcome of your actions and as much as everyone here has the right to express their opinions, ranieri has his right to make his subs and formations, because he will make himself more thoughts about it than the greatest juve fan.
the last part is not only to cronios, but to all those who always know better(no offence) and do not give credit when it's due.
i would like to add something to Giovinco issue:
i would like to see him more often as the most of you, but something tells me
that there might be something with Giovinco that does tell the coaches they can not field him from the start ...
i mean they see him in training and the last three coaches he had did not field him in every game where he was fit. there might be some information that we as fans do not know that keeps ranieri from fielding him.
your posts are always nice to read and most of the time i can understand what you are trying to say and what are the intentions and thoughts behind your opinion, but i think it is really sad that you are so unable to change or adjust your mind over ranieri.
he is no world beater and every guy in this forum knows better formations and so on ...
but even when he does exactly what your fantasy formations (the time he played giovinco as trequartista) you bash him as if you did always know better even if that was exactly the fans favourite formation.
you did see that this formation was not the super cool formation that made us bash the opponent so please do not always think being a coach is as simple as playing football manager games.
in the football manager game you would probably be angry and shout "baaah, that game is total crap", when you lose with a team of stars and your fantasy formation and would probably stop playing it.
in life you can not always predict the outcome of your actions and as much as everyone here has the right to express their opinions, ranieri has his right to make his subs and formations, because he will make himself more thoughts about it than the greatest juve fan.
the last part is not only to cronios, but to all those who always know better(no offence) and do not give credit when it's due.
i would like to add something to Giovinco issue:
i would like to see him more often as the most of you, but something tells me
that there might be something with Giovinco that does tell the coaches they can not field him from the start ...
i mean they see him in training and the last three coaches he had did not field him in every game where he was fit. there might be some information that we as fans do not know that keeps ranieri from fielding him.
Virtual, i ll repeat it one more time for you and try to remember please,
that i am not a football manager player, thank you!
In case you missed, since i havent seen you lately, i did praise CR, when given the chance!
But only when i was sure about his choices and i even did so, despite the common momentary beliefs.
But this straight 4-4-2 with 2 DMs, really is an issue for me and i am not going to praise CR yet, because he had proven to me many times over, that this was not his personal choices!
And just try to find another argument, you have repeated many times over, that we boast that we are better than CR and we would have done better,
i never said and however did that, was def meant that as ironic.
Meaning that he cant do anything worse than that anyway.
That doesnt change the fact though, that as fans we cant have an opinion,
we have been closely following our clubs for decades and we have seen hundred of players and system come and go, so as many coaches and tactics.
It is not entirely impossible to foretell a situation, when you have seen this again.
And we dont have all to personally be better coaches than CR, to understand that, some other coach would have done better.
We have seen better coaches than CR, we have seen their reactions, their tactics, their gameplans, their choices, spend a hell of a lot of time with sport experts and red trillions of professional pre+after match reports.
We are mot that clueless not to tell we can do better.
This argument is getting old, i am not going to give my blind faith on CR, only because he can do this job better than i can.
With the same logic, i cannot judge the performances of any player, because he is a professional player and he can play football better than i do...
I told you before, we are here to discuss issues about Juve, we are taking any kind of decisions here.
You view may be that a fan should passively accept and obey/worship anything that it comes from his favorite team and there is not reason for criticism because we cannot directly affect our team.
But i do personally find this blind love as useless as our criticism, as long as our team cannot directly benefit from it!
If i do praise CR, will wake up in the morning with a bigger smile at his face?
No! Same happens if i dont...
So i ask you again, whats the reason, you are participating in this forum?
As for Giovinco, the reason seems to be simply and we have discussed this using some logical conclusion, but it doesnt really maters, does it??
Afterall, what do we really know?? CR knows better, isnt he??
No reason to discuss that...
that i am not a football manager player, thank you!
In case you missed, since i havent seen you lately, i did praise CR, when given the chance!
But only when i was sure about his choices and i even did so, despite the common momentary beliefs.
But this straight 4-4-2 with 2 DMs, really is an issue for me and i am not going to praise CR yet, because he had proven to me many times over, that this was not his personal choices!
And just try to find another argument, you have repeated many times over, that we boast that we are better than CR and we would have done better,
i never said and however did that, was def meant that as ironic.
Meaning that he cant do anything worse than that anyway.
That doesnt change the fact though, that as fans we cant have an opinion,
we have been closely following our clubs for decades and we have seen hundred of players and system come and go, so as many coaches and tactics.
It is not entirely impossible to foretell a situation, when you have seen this again.
And we dont have all to personally be better coaches than CR, to understand that, some other coach would have done better.
We have seen better coaches than CR, we have seen their reactions, their tactics, their gameplans, their choices, spend a hell of a lot of time with sport experts and red trillions of professional pre+after match reports.
We are mot that clueless not to tell we can do better.
This argument is getting old, i am not going to give my blind faith on CR, only because he can do this job better than i can.
With the same logic, i cannot judge the performances of any player, because he is a professional player and he can play football better than i do...
I told you before, we are here to discuss issues about Juve, we are taking any kind of decisions here.
You view may be that a fan should passively accept and obey/worship anything that it comes from his favorite team and there is not reason for criticism because we cannot directly affect our team.
But i do personally find this blind love as useless as our criticism, as long as our team cannot directly benefit from it!
If i do praise CR, will wake up in the morning with a bigger smile at his face?
No! Same happens if i dont...
So i ask you again, whats the reason, you are participating in this forum?
As for Giovinco, the reason seems to be simply and we have discussed this using some logical conclusion, but it doesnt really maters, does it??
Afterall, what do we really know?? CR knows better, isnt he??
No reason to discuss that...
i did not try to argue with you because looking at the clock i gotta get my sleep now, but a few sentences to worship your post:
i am participating in this forum to get news about juve i would otherwise not get ... this overwhelming rumour fights like "my modric is twice the player your diego is" do not really interesst me.
when i read a post of someone who writes sensible then i will write my stuff to it and respond to it. if someone acts like a child or someone who grew up without parents than i will not ... i might even put them on my ignore list (plenty of seats left there).
oh and when i do not get to see a juve match i like to follow the live-thread, because its more fun than watching just a live ticker.
i surely do not make notices when you praise ranieri and when you're not praising him. our different points of views perhaps are surely both valid, as i am someone who says "if you can not change it or can not do better by yourself, don't give smart advices" ... you do give your thoughts about what ranieri is doing wrong or other coaches would do better and that is ok, too.
the giovinco matter is already discussed in another thread, yes.
the simple question i would like to ask is "if someone had more information about something, would he automatically have the better information/view?"
surely we see things, but ranieri does know a hell lot more about giovinco than we and thus far i trust that his decisions are based on that and not on the information every fan has.
i am participating in this forum to get news about juve i would otherwise not get ... this overwhelming rumour fights like "my modric is twice the player your diego is" do not really interesst me.
when i read a post of someone who writes sensible then i will write my stuff to it and respond to it. if someone acts like a child or someone who grew up without parents than i will not ... i might even put them on my ignore list (plenty of seats left there).
oh and when i do not get to see a juve match i like to follow the live-thread, because its more fun than watching just a live ticker.
i surely do not make notices when you praise ranieri and when you're not praising him. our different points of views perhaps are surely both valid, as i am someone who says "if you can not change it or can not do better by yourself, don't give smart advices" ... you do give your thoughts about what ranieri is doing wrong or other coaches would do better and that is ok, too.
the giovinco matter is already discussed in another thread, yes.
the simple question i would like to ask is "if someone had more information about something, would he automatically have the better information/view?"
surely we see things, but ranieri does know a hell lot more about giovinco than we and thus far i trust that his decisions are based on that and not on the information every fan has.
, I voted for Del Piero.
