[SERIE A] JUVENTUS 1-1 Sampdoria (02/15/09) (16 Viewers)

[Lo-Pan]

For anyone still optimistic about our chances in Europe and the domestic league, the game yesterday against Sampdoria, must have put them Right. Because we were poor. Piss poor at times, with players all across the team missing passes, and generally showing a complete lack of invention, and also fear...fear against the mighty sampdoria...

Yes, we made more chances, especially in the first half, and were it not for the framework we could have been winning, but we should have been winning anyway. Nedved, at 36 years old, was out most dangerous player for the first 45 minutes...What does that say about Camo, Poulsen, Tiago, Del Piero**** Amauri is excepted from my criticism because I didn't think he did much wrong and worked his brazillian italian arse off for the team, he was worth his well taken goal...

It was a good decision to bring on Gio at half time, and he certainly injected some much needed quality into our attacking play, but the routine of Pass to Gio or Camo, get down the flanks, let Molinaro and Grygera overlap, was predictable, and easy to defend...

Marchionni was an embarassment, as he has been all season. Poulsen and Tiago may both be some way off match fitness, but i would rather see a damaged Momo and tired Marchisio patrolling the centre of the field, that the danish portuguese facade of creativity and stockade that I saw yesterday.

When we struggle, really struggle, to find an equaliser against a team of Sampdoria's form and ranking, we are nowhere near ready to challenge the bigboys...On this form, i am now only hopeful of achieving 3rd or 2nd in the league. That will be an achievement...

If we want to compete at the top, we need to replace Del Piero, or at least have his replacement playing up to 30 mins of each game...We need to get BETTER fullbacks that molinaro and grygera, those two can be the backups...Nedved's replacement is a must. I dont see Silva joining, he is too weak, physically for the italian league, and not that different. Rakitic appears, on paper ideal...and if we get another creative midfielder like Diego, in the process, all the better...I like the look of Rakitic, Marchisio, SIssoko, Diego...perhaps the the first three in a line, and diego as an attacking CM...in attack, trez will be cool for another season, iaquinta, amauri and gio can keep him company.

We also need a new centreback. Without Giorgio we are horribly flat at the back...

Its not all bad news, its just that match last night really proved to me, than despite my optimistic 'we are back!!! we are once again battling for the title and may go all the way to the champs final...surely some silverware this year'...we are not there, just yet. And if we play like we did yesterday against chelsea, with hiddink in charge of them, we will get mashed. and rightly so...

 

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[Bjerknes]

Good first post. Welcome to the forums, bro.

 

[Bjerknes]

This is cruel, lol. For the last 7 months Ive been nose deep in a thesis paper, doing a meta-analysis on a topic covering thousands of patients. I know more about biases in stats and in their interpretation than most, so spare me the ridicule that I'm ignorant with stats.

I can safely say that stats in sports such as goals for, goals against, and most importantly league position, appear at face value. What variables am I not accounting for that make my conclusion drawn from those lists weaker? All teams have played the same amount of games, field the same amount of players, play the same amount of home/away fixtures, are subject to the exact same rules, etc, etc. They are matched on just about everything. In fact, the only variables that would produce a meaningful effect size on those list are things like injury's or fixture congestion, which would be impossible to operationalize, but in our case, wouldn't matter, as they make my conclusion drawn from them stronger ie: even with injurys, were still conceding very few goals. Not to mention in the context of this argument, completely irrelevant, as Ranieri is not responsible for injury's or fixture congestion (although I’m sure your response will be squad rotation, where there is no flexibility b/c of injuries, with the exception of Nedved/Seba which I agree).

So you honestly believe we can't play any better than this? These statistics don't show the whole truth to our ways, because they don't account for the obvious changes to the team that could have provided better goods.

Go ahead and believe the statistics if you want. There have been teams before that had the greatest goal differential but still ended up winning nothing. Just because in some matches we do well and maintain a nice goal differential doesn't mean we get the job done when it counts. I mean seriously, you can't be such a fool defending these events as someone who claims they understand statistics. Statistics regarding goals and defense could lie all the time if they don't hold up when it matters.

I don't even care about injuries. Ranieri should be using Giovinco much more instead of a stupid Marco anyway. Complacency gets us nowhere, Shyne.

Doesn't make sensical moves? Imbecilic substitutions? I guess u missed the last 2 games, because Ranieri’s subs had an affect.

Marchionni played consecutive matches b/c Camo and Brazzo were injured.

If by strength through the middle, your referring to Momo, Zanetti, Poulsen, Tiago, Marchisio, than how does a 4-4-2 not suit those players?

Two matches out of 25? Man, you're starting to reject your own statistics hypothesis without even knowing it.

We don't have the fast-paced wingers to successfully use the straight 4-4-2. Yes, the strength is through the middle, with players such as Sissoko, Tiago, Giovinco, Chiellini, and the like. Nedved is also better in the center. So you tell me why we use a system that requires damn good wingers, as Marco is not one of those.

 

[Bjerknes]

We were after a MC. Everyone here wanted a MC. Almiron was awful, Tiago flopped and Marchisio was a "?". We wanted to sell Tiago and replace him with another MC. But Tiago didn't want to leave and we were left with a MC more than needed.
Now, you can argue that Poulsen is not the MC we should've bought, but unless i'm wrong you're arguing that instead of buying a MC we should've bought a defender?

Alen, don't fall into the media trap. Tiago wasn't a flop because he did not play enough matches. A flop is someone who plays quite a few matches and is supposedly a world class player, such as Quaresma. Nobody here was saying Tiago is world class, thus making his ridicule ridiculous, unjust, sorry, and stupid.

So, since the board and everyone here (almost everyone) wanted a MC (Some were having orgasms at the thought of Xabi Alonso), why do you think that we didn't need one and that everyone else was wrong?
We wanted Xabi, Pool didn't want to let him go, and at the end Ranieri chose Poulsen. Simple as that.

If we are making decisions based on time rather than logic, we are truly screwed. Poulsen and Xabi Alonso are quite the different players. If Ranieri opted for Poulsen as a last resort instead of Xabi, then he truly hasn't got a clue of how the team should be conducted. I'm very sorry that we have to concoct excuses for this transfer, but as I said from day one, Poulsen is a bullshit transfer.

I answered you about the 40m and once more i have to remind you about the concept of long term planning. Instead of buying Amauri and Poulsen and start building a stadium maybe we could have TRIED TO BUY (it's far from certain that we would've bought) Fabregas, Ronaldinho and Gabriel Milito and spend 90m on them. But i'll go with what we did and i think we did the smarter thing.

Nobody is claiming we should have bought Ronnie or Cesc (even despite me being a fan of them). We should have invested our money wisely on players we need, not stupid backups, so that we could fix problems in the team. Yes, one of those problems is the lack of someone who can distribute the ball and yes, one of those problems is the lack of support from the defenders. Molinaro needs to have an exponential increase in ability to add anything to this team, so his disease should have been addressed, but it was not. Lots of problems should have been addressed but they were not.

As much as you, my fellow supporters, love to criticize the criticism, it's not like we're whistling dixie here. These problems must be resolved before we go on to higher achievements.

Good thing you mentioned Deschamps. What happened to him after he left Juve?
I assume there was a lot of interest for him and many teams wanted him. Who got him at the end?

Edit: Oh, i see that he's unemployed ever since he left us.

So what? Are you saying that proves Deschamps is not a worthy manager for us? Because I'll tell you what - he's done far more for this club than Ranieri has ever done.

 

[dogsarecute]

It is obvious that most fans still thinks that we are in pre-calciopoli days. They expect us to win the league immediately after promotion. They expect world-class players in all positions and world-class coaches, without thinking about which world-class player will be willing to join a team that is rebuilding and which world-class coach is willing to take up the task of rebuilding.

You asked for quality fullbacks, but are they available cheaply? All the well-known ones are tied up and has no reason to join us. The names that you gave: Zhirkov, Dossena, Rafinha, etc. I heard someone say that Juventus is not a place for experiments, but aren't these players going to be experiments since there is no way they are in the class of Evra or Sagna currently? Defensively, Molinaro may be better than them.

You want CBs. There isn't any. Maybe Agger will be available this season but are there any last June? Zapata may be another Andrade and experiment. Not to mention, you forgot about Andrade and Criscito. If you want instant success, sure, fire them and spend more money.

You want Alonso too, to provide creativity. But Barry did not get transferred and that is that. If you think that Benitez is willing to leave himself without a good CM, which is his team's strongest position, then he is not be good enough to coach Juventus. Judging from Tiago's performance, we do not need Alonso who is slower.

With regards to our wings, I agree we could do better than old Nedved. Camoranesi is always injured and that is not the fault of the management. Marchionni performs below-par recently but he is Moggi's buy, and has made some assists and goals in the earlier matches. There are no suggestions as to possible backups to Camo because there is none. Giovinco may be a solution but we don't know how he will do on the right wing.

You say Amauri is not needed. This is where the short-sightedness of us fans is most obvious. Here we have a player who is 28, in his prime and capable of lasting many seasons, is a good holding player, reasonably fast and skilful, and absolutely dominates in heading. He can take over Trezeguet or Del Piero if any of them is injured, so he offers our offense something that we do not have currently. I think only Etoo has the same combination of skills as him. He is available at reasonable prices, so the management signed him. If he went to Milan, then we will need to find another striker soon. Players mentioned like Villa and Benzema cost much more and they have no Serie A experience. This season, we will be playing Del Piero and Iaquinta and suddenly, our attack suddenly seem so strong.

Then check out the injury list. It includes our starter right-back, most creative midfielder, best defender, most consistent midfielder, best keeper in the world, and deadliest striker. Compare the results when Chelsea lost either one of Essien/Cech/Carvalho/Terry or when Liverpool lost Torres or Alonso or when Ibrahmovic/Samuel is unavailable. The teams all drop points that they should bag, and so is not a purely Juventus affair. This also answers the point about individuals winning matches for us. It is the same in other teams.

The management said that the rebuilding process takes 5 years, and we are now only in the second year. Already, we have most if not all backup positions covered. Do not belittle the reserves. Currently, the only problem is with our wings, which I believe will be taken up by youths.

Just let the management do their job. There is no need to win every game because we are a team in progress. Talks equating Ranieri saying that a draw is fine to him being a loser is nonsense. You never know what the opposite outcome will be. When Manchester United were drawing and losing in early season, Ferguson said something similar to what Ranieri gave. Roy Keane likes to blast his squad and where is he now? Ranieri may have won nothing worthwhile, but give him time. He has the core set up. He trusts Del Piero who other coaches might have easily dumped given the public perception that he was past it. A win is a win. When players miss chances, it is their fault, not the coach's, because the coach cannot shoot the ball for them.

 

[dogsarecute]

Weedguru has a nice post but I want to rebut some points. Yesterday's match showed me that our team is good but we need to tighten up some loose ends.

With Tiago and Poulsen in the midfield, we are pretty well covered and they allowed us to dominate the game. Poulsen cleaned up the balls and gave a clean tackle when Cassano was threatening to break through. Tiago made classy moves to open up spaces. Cassano and Pazzini were the only threats and the only reason why they threatened is because Grygera, Legrottaglie and Mellberg played badly. We created plenty of chances and if we have crossers like those of Manchester United, we will have put in more. In fact, it was like watching Barcelona vs a typical Spanish team.

The passing is mostly good sans Molinaro who made some good grounders into the penalty box but his long crosses are crap. We have many chances in the penalty box. If we play like we did yesterday, with Chiellini on form, Chelsea will be thrashed, not the other way round.

Marchionni and Grygera still plays badly. Nedved being the best player in the first half is a good sign. It means that he still have something to offer, even if it does not come often. It does not mean that once someone is 36, he cannot contribute anymore. If the team plays well and a 36-year old is the best player, there is nothing for the fans to be upset about.

 

[Enoran]

Tiago made classy moves to open up spaces.

He performed some nifty touches even with some close attention from the Samp defender to find space for himself. A sign of confidence ...

Marchionni and Grygera still plays badly.

The right flank is ..... :sick:
Gigli and Blanc are there witnessing it, so they better do something to assist Camo and Zebina in the summer

 

[cimenk]

How about our offside trap who beat again by opponents attacks...
For now i hate offside trap that we used in our system

 

[ZhiXin]

Weedguru has a nice post but I want to rebut some points. Yesterday's match showed me that our team is good but we need to tighten up some loose ends.

With Tiago and Poulsen in the midfield, we are pretty well covered and they allowed us to dominate the game. Poulsen cleaned up the balls and gave a clean tackle when Cassano was threatening to break through. Tiago made classy moves to open up spaces. Cassano and Pazzini were the only threats and the only reason why they threatened is because Grygera, Legrottaglie and Mellberg played badly. We created plenty of chances and if we have crossers like those of Manchester United, we will have put in more. In fact, it was like watching Barcelona vs a typical Spanish team.

The passing is mostly good sans Molinaro who made some good grounders into the penalty box but his long crosses are crap. We have many chances in the penalty box. If we play like we did yesterday, with Chiellini on form, Chelsea will be thrashed, not the other way round.

Marchionni and Grygera still plays badly. Nedved being the best player in the first half is a good sign. It means that he still have something to offer, even if it does not come often. It does not mean that once someone is 36, he cannot contribute anymore. If the team plays well and a 36-year old is the best player, there is nothing for the fans to be upset about.

Good to see some1 who shares the same view.

Tiago's recent performances are reassuring. I'm not sure if he has really adapted to Serie A, but he definitely needs to get more games to boost his confidence. As I said before if he can perform consistently in more games, I'm sure he will be an alternative to Zanetti, who is turning to glass nowadays. Good job by Tiago. Hopefully he can make Ranieri change his mind with his performances.

Poulsen can not only play as a central midfielder, which is his primary role, he can also fit in as a RB/CB during emergency cases. Furthermore he has European experience that will definitely help the squad in the Juventus rebuilding process. He may not have make his mark this season, but give him more time to adapt since he is injured most of the time

Another person who I want to mention is Grygera, who is really woeful. At the start I have said that Grygera is just average, and time and time again he proves me right. At this moment I wish Zebina to be playing at right back instead. Brazzo to me is still and always an utility player. Dunno y Marchionni can be so inconsistent.

Giovinco should have been given more chances by rotating his role with Nedved. Most of the time he steps onto the pitch, he will definitely give the attack another alternative to choose from. His runs and crosses are amazing and IMO he should be started in January.

People here want Ranieri out due to his 'loser' mentality. Well if you want Ranieri out you should name a replacement for him. It is not easy to be able to find a coach suitable for the job in the rebuilding process and to withstand the pressure from the ever-demanding fans. Furthermore he has limited options to choose from with so many clients on the treatment table.

I'm not certain about your view on Chelsea. Recently they have hired Hiddink, who I believe has the ability to shake up the whole squad. This will definitely be an interesting counter, and I wish that the Juventus starting XI will be fully fit. BEcause a defence line without Chiellini is spineless,

In a more realistic view, give up on the scedutto. CL is a bit far-fetched for the present Juve. At least we can still get the Coppa Italia

 

[Vinman]

I guess some of you are happy about our league position and losing out on points.

In some ways, that actually makes me happy. If you lot get your wish and we lose more points due to idiocy, then perhaps this imbecile will be fired at one point.

As your mother always claims, losers hang out with losers.

wow, the losers here who are content with mediocrity is almost laughable...and they have the nerve to criticise us.

I dont really give a shit about goals against stats, the stat that matters most is the table at the end of the season, and who wins the CL trophy, which wont happen until we get a new board in here

 

[Bjerknes]

wow, the losers here who are content with mediocrity is almost laughable...and they have the nerve to criticise us.

I dont really give a shit about goals against stats, the stat that matters most is the table at the end of the season, and who wins the CL trophy, which wont happen until we get a new board in here

They just hate us because we're right, bro.

 

[Ahmed]

If you don't know, it doesn't mean I or others don't. and like I said, you are disgusting, stay away from this..

wasn't speaking to u, was I? you are clearly the one who has a rod up your ass, not me...having a rectal examination in your case would not be a bad idea

 

[Huzi]

Guys , enough is enough !! am pretty sure that we won't win anything under this managment cause really the mentality is so much different than it was during Moggi's days. RUINieri is happy all the time no matter we win , draw or lose !! this can't be Juventus caoch for GOD's sake. We need to add more quality to our team and forget about the physical issue cause it won't get us any trophies @ the end.

 

[A_LAcki]

I wonder if we would have the same discusion here, if all those chances yesterday would have gone in, and we would have won with 4 or 5 to 1.

 

[Elvin]

I wonder if we would have the same discusion here, if all those chances yesterday would have gone in, and we would have won with 4 or 5 to 1.

Exactly what I was thinking. Don't wanna make excuses but we have been extremely unlucky.

Well, better now than in Champions League, I guess.

Forza Juve!

 

[ZhiXin]

I wonder if we would have the same discusion here, if all those chances yesterday would have gone in, and we would have won with 4 or 5 to 1.

Doesn't really matter. The cycle repeats itself if Juventus is to have the same consequence in another game.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

wow, the losers here who are content with mediocrity is almost laughable...and they have the nerve to criticise us.

I dont really give a shit about goals against stats, the stat that matters most is the table at the end of the season, and who wins the CL trophy, which wont happen until we get a new board in here

is absolutely not at all like that. it's understanding what juventus means to us as fans. we can sit here and write long ass essays on the theme of how much juventus sucks, but try doing that on another hobby, looks stupid.

 

[JCK]

is absolutely not at all like that. it's understanding what juventus means to us as fans. we can sit here and write long ass essays on the theme of how much juventus sucks, but try doing that on another hobby, looks stupid.

What do you mean?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

i mean, that i am happy with taking second place in seria a this year. and i'll be ecstatic if we make it past chelsea

 

[JCK]

Well that was our realistic target which most of us were expecting and to be honest what the team has done is beyond expectations.