Serie A 2017/18 (46 Viewers)

[Seven]

I don't agree. Resources relative to who?

Arsenal and Liverpool both do not spend on transfers and wages anything close to what Chelsea, City and United have over the years. In Arsenal's case, I'm not defending us, because I think even relative to our resources we have underperformed a lot in the past few years, but you still can't compare Arsenal's expenditure on players to the aforementioned three teams. The same applies to Liverpool.

As for Juve, the fact that they've reached two CL finals in the past few years IMO is overachievement relative to their resources. Its why I think Allegri has been world class in the past four years. There is no comparison in terms of squad quality, and expenditure on players between Juve and the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona especially. The fact that Juve have reached two CL finals beating both those teams on the way, and have generally been as good as teams like Barcelona(if not better) in the CL, despite the disparity in resources is testament to Juve's winning mentality not a lack of it.

Perhaps if Juve was able to keep their best players every year, and was able to buy players like Neymar, Coutinho, Modric, Kroos, and co, then maybe things would have been different. I think that is a much more valid explanation as to why Juve haven't won the CL, than a lack of winning mentality.

And please don't tell me you are one of those people that believe in club DNA?

Btw you can buy mentality as well. A player like Ronaldo would have a winning mentality if he played at a different club too. Even if he played at a club that made winning virtually impossible, did everything in their power to create weak and mentally frail players, a club like Arsenal, Ronaldo would still have that winning mentality.

If you buy Ronaldo, that is part of the deal too.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Elvin]

Oh FFS

I don't even know how that is possible. If Juve sell all their players tomorrow and trade them for Benevento's players, will their club DNA keep them winning Serie A titles?

Also, how do you explain teams like City and Chelsea who have no "DNA" dominating English football after they got their sugar daddies. Same for PSG in France? Teams with DNA in France, the likes of Nantes and St. Etienne get beaten 5-0 by no DNA PSG these days.


Resources >>>> A team's "DNA"(whatever the fuck that is anyway)

It's not DNA per se, maybe Club Atmosphere is a better term, or Club Spirit.

 

[JCK]

Lazio better not fvck up next week.

You know damn well that they will fuck up.

 

[Fred]

He's too stubborn, like Conte, rarely use bench player. Napoli starting 11 qlready burn out in march. Yet he's refuse to change the player.

And the fact sarri & napoli celebrate after 1-0 in Turin was a huge question of mentality. I not fanboying over Allegri, but the fact he push Dybala and got red after Inter match is the mentality you need to grind result when it's the most needed.

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You see people keep saying these things; and making these symbolic things seem much more important than they actually are.

I think Allegri has been one of the best managers in the world in the past four seasons, so what you're about to read is in no way meant to discredit him. But lets say Allegri was the one managing Napoli, would it be any different? He could push Insigne after a goal against Juve and get red carded for it, but he'd still lose the league to a Juve side that is at a different level to the rest of Italy in terms of resources that they can just go ahead and buy their rivals best players(Higuain, Pjanic).

Also to the point about Napoli's starting eleven. Perhaps he'd have been able to play the second fiddle players, if he had Mandzukic, Cuadrado, Barzagli, Bernardeschi, Rugani and Marchisio on his bench.

Btw you can buy mentality as well. A player like Ronaldo would have a winning mentality if he played at a different club too. Even if he played at a club that made winning virtually impossible, did everything in their power to create weak and mentally frail players, a club like Arsenal, Ronaldo would still have that winning mentality.

If you buy Ronaldo, that is part of the deal too.

That is very true.

Again, I am one of those who think Arsenal lack a winning mentality. But when I say that I am talking about the group of players that are now representing Arsenal. If Arsenal were to all of a sudden buy the likes of Ronaldo, they'd bring in a winning mentality with them.

It's not DNA per se, maybe Club Atmosphere is a better term, or Club Spirit.

That is so abstract. What does that even mean? and how does it help?

 

[ADP1897]

You see people keep saying these things; and making these symbolic things seem much more important than they actually are.

I think Allegri has been one of the best managers in the world in the past four seasons, so what you're about to read is in no way meant to discredit him. But lets say Allegri was the one managing Napoli, would it be any different? He could push Insigne after a goal against Juve and get red carded for it, but he'd still lose the league to a Juve side that is at a different level to the rest of Italy in terms of resources that they can just go ahead and buy their rivals best players(Higuain, Pjanic).

Also to the point about Napoli's starting eleven. Perhaps he'd have been able to play the second fiddle players, if he had Mandzukic, Cuadrado, Barzagli, Bernardeschi, Rugani and Marchisio on his bench.

He will imo..
Napoli have a good and decent subs. True they're struggling with injuries, but so does juve. At some point we only have 3 mids, or 3 defender.

And come on.. zielinski, diawara, milik wasn't a bad player, they could very well played against lesser serie A team. Even Rui wouldn't started playing if ghoulam didn't got those nasty injury.

Bonuci sidelined
Higuain and dybala ride the bench when off form.
Then again, you can make a case that juve have a bench to afford so.

And Juve start spending 40 millions for a player after their 4th Scudetto. Our most expensive signing was Vucinic for 15 million. It's abit unfair to blame it solely on money and resource, after all those years of penny pinching, you as arsenal fans probably can relate (after moving from highsbury).

Allegri know how to use all the player at his disposal, Sarri don't.



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[Berni99]

Maurizio Sarri expressed all his regrets as Napoli lost the Scudetto to Juventus “in the hotel and not on the pitch,” but left the door open for an exit.

The 2-0 victory away to Sampdoria this evening allowed the Partenopei to set a club record of 88 Serie A points, although Juventus still took a seventh straight title.

“It goes without saying Juve are more powerful in every way. I haven’t watched them enough to say if they were the best,” Sarri told Mediaset Premium.

He was asked what they could’ve done differently and his mind immediately went to the night before a 3-0 defeat at Fiorentina, when the team watched Juve fight back to beat Inter 3-2 in stoppages.

“We needed to go to bed early on Saturday night in Florence… The team suffered a psychological blow and felt it for the timing and the way that result came about. The only regret I have this season is that we lost the Scudetto in the hotel and not on the pitch.

“We lost three games and then always drew after that defeat. The team is sensitive and certainly vulnerable in some ways. We have to work and the Lega Serie A has to work a lot.

“We played after Juve 14 times in the last 16 rounds and seeing as Juve pretty much always win, that badly damaged us.

“This sport has become a business for everyone. It has to remain a sport, because if it’s just business, then it will end pretty quickly. I will say that I admired the performance from a team that had nothing left to play for. I liked this performance.”

Sarri has refused to confirm if he will remain at Napoli next season and again implied he’ll walk away from President Aurelio De Laurentiis.

“I can say that I love the fans deeply, I love the city deeply and that will never change, regardless of how this story ends.

“There’s a club dinner on Thursday, so we’ll definitely meet there, unless one of us doesn’t turn up!”

What a loser, fuck you Sarri

 

[DAiDEViL]

What a loser, fuck you Sarri

 

[Fred]

He will imo..
Napoli have a good and decent subs. True they're struggling with injuries, but so does juve. At some point we only have 3 mids, or 3 defender.

And come on.. zielinski, diawara, milik wasn't a bad player, they could very well played against lesser serie A team. Even Rui wouldn't started playing if ghoulam didn't got those nasty injury.

Bonuci sidelined
Higuain and dybala ride the bench when off form.
Then again, you can make a case that juve have a bench to afford so.


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Not even close to Juve's squad though.

We can debate this until we're blue in the face, but the fact is Juve have double Napoli's wage bill. That implies that they have far better players; the player market as it is these days is more or less a free market, you cannot hold onto players that dont want to stay.

Juventus can afford to buy their rivals best players, you cannot realistically expect those rivals to beat Juventus in a 38 league season. Do you know how many times in the last 20 seasons in the Serie A, a club that had half the wage bill or less than the highest wage bill in the league won the title?

 

[ADP1897]

Not even close to Juve's squad though.

We can debate this until we're blue in the face, but the fact is Juve have double Napoli's wage bill. That implies that they have far better players; the player market as it is these days is more or less a free market, you cannot hold onto players that dont want to stay.

Juventus can afford to buy their rivals best players, you cannot realistically expect those rivals to beat Juventus in a 38 league season. Do you know how many times in the last 20 seasons in the Serie A, a club that had half the wage bill or less than the highest wage bill in the league won the title?

Of course Juve got better player, and i agree it certainly make things easier, then again blaming financial aspect alone was unfair.

When conte took juve, juve have around 100million wage bill..
Milan 120 iirc.



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[Paid-off-Ref]

HI5TORY - LE6END - MY7TH - GR8TNESS - 9ODLIKE - ...?

 

[athas]

NOTOR10US ^^

 

[Fred]

Of course Juve got better player, and i agree it certainly make things easier, then again blaming financial aspect alone was unfair.

When conte took juve, juve have around 100million wage bill..
Milan 120 iirc.



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You are correct. Thats why Conte's first scudetto especially was a big achievement, the fact that he was then able to build on that and win the league title yet again and then create a dynasty is testament to his ability. Conte is without doubt a world class manager.

That being said, there are two things that need to be pointed out. First of all despite Conte's financial disadvantage relative to Milans then, he was not as disadvantaged as Sarri's Napoli are to the current Juve. A difference of 20% is not like a team spending double your wage bill. Its significant, and a very notable achievement by Conte, but still its not the same.

Another thing is, when you said that Allegri would have won the league title with this Napoli side, we can look at his time at Milan to get at least a proxy of how he's done relative to his resources when being disadvantaged relative to his competition. He won the league title once with Milan and only when he had the best squad, and highest wage bill. When he didn't have the highest wage bill he was never able to win the league. So your claim that he would have done it with Napoli is unsubstantiated and not supported by his history.

Now i'll have to add a disclaimer, I'm not discrediting Allegri here, I think he did a fantastic job at Milan. I'm showing how unrealistic it is to expect Sarri to win the league for Napoli with the resources at his disposal.

Now, I'll go back to my original question. How many teams have won the Serie A in the last 20 years when paying in wages half the highest wage bill?

 

[ADP1897]

...

Idk bro.. bar those 20% deficit, probably none, money play their role, but i'd still like to think that calm environment and more organised culture of Juventus make it possible to won 7times consecutively.

Even lazio and roma 2000 wasn't that poor compared to this napoli - juve.

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[Fred]

Idk bro.. bar those 20% deficit, probably none, money play their role, but i'd still like to think that calm environment and more organised culture of Juventus make it possible to won 7times consecutively.

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I'm not taking anything away from Juve. I think the management at Juve being able to build a new stadium, and build a dynasty in the Serie A before having the highest wage bill is spectacular. But even Juventus couldn't win the league with half the wage bill of the highest spender, that shows you what an impossible expecation it is to tell Sarri that you are losing the league because of your mentality or bad decisions and not because he doesn't have the resources at his disposal.

The answer to my question is zero of course.

 

[Amer]

I'm so glad that we're rich and we can buy everything we want, even Scudetti.

 

[ADP1897]

I'm not taking anything away from Juve. I think the management at Juve being able to build a new stadium, and build a dynasty in the Serie A before having the highest wage bill is spectacular. But even Juventus couldn't win the league with half the wage bill of the highest spender, that shows you what an impossible expecation it is to tell Sarri that you are losing the league because of your mentality or bad decisions and not because he doesn't have the resources at his disposal.

The answer to my question is zero of course.

Let just say that i agree with you, since i can't deny anything you said

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[zizinho]

With automatic 4 CL spots imo if Roma, Napoli, and Lazio can keep Milano clubs out of CL another year they will permanently establish themselves as the new big clubs of Italy outside of Juve. Fingers crosssd this happens.

Roma could, maybe Napoli for a few more years before the inevitable Milano clubs return. Lazio definitely cant, they all need CL money to compete with milan and inter financially, who havent played CL in ages

 

[Jethro]

HI5TORY - LE6END - MY7TH - GR8TNESS - 9ODLIKE - ...?

My7th

 

[Wittl]

HI5TORY - LE6END - MY7TH - GR8TNESS - 9ODLIKE - ...?

Jinxed.

Congratulations to Roma! ...or Inter?

 

[zizinho]

Mentality is the reason Arsenal hasn't won a league title in ages, resources are there.
Mentality is the reason Liverpool never win PL, mentality is the reason we underperform in CL finals. Mentality is vital.

Liverpool had everything in their hands, were leading the table and had 2 topscorers playing for them, then their captain slips and hands the title to City