Yeah I was curios and this is why I read the whole thing, but what does it have to do with my conclusion?
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Prophet Muhammad ( may Allah exalt him and grant him peace) mentioned in the Bible (5 Viewers)
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I've never heard of this Solomons miracle with the ants but this is the Ahmadiyya explanation I found (attached).
I've already talked about the 'stars and demons' thing in another thread. I'll see if I can find it.
edit: Found it: http://juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2090984&highlight=stars#post2090984
I've already talked about the 'stars and demons' thing in another thread. I'll see if I can find it.
edit: Found it: http://juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2090984&highlight=stars#post2090984
In that thread i pointed out the problems i have with the interpretation, namely that this is not what you get at face value. Also, If you check the link.. There is a Hadith that explains those verses.. I'll quote some stuff
15:16-18
It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders; And (moreover) We have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
37:6-10
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars, (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
67:5
And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
72:8-9
(Demons are speaking)'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
Also, a hadith about it:
Muhammad supports this interpretation. Sahih al-Muslim #5538 informs us:
As we were sitting during the night with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)?” They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died,” whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “(These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: ‘What your Lord has said?’ And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of this world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors.”
From this hadith in Sahih al-Muslim, we see that Muhammad agrees entirely with all the conclusions we drew from the Quranic ayaat, including that the stars in question are shooting stars.
Further, The interpretation of Solomon's miracle is the same.. ants don't have speech, they leave chemical traces
15:16-18
It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders; And (moreover) We have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
37:6-10
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars, (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
67:5
And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
72:8-9
(Demons are speaking)'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
Also, a hadith about it:
Muhammad supports this interpretation. Sahih al-Muslim #5538 informs us:
As we were sitting during the night with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)?” They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died,” whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “(These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: ‘What your Lord has said?’ And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of this world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors.”
From this hadith in Sahih al-Muslim, we see that Muhammad agrees entirely with all the conclusions we drew from the Quranic ayaat, including that the stars in question are shooting stars.
Further, The interpretation of Solomon's miracle is the same.. ants don't have speech, they leave chemical traces
Did you even read? And what do you mean "that this is not what you get at face value."? As in the literal meaning?
I feel like I'm linking and copy pasting too much but I love this book 
PREPARE NOW to undertake a journey upon the wings of scientific vision into the ancient past to explore the nature and identity of the jinn. The Quranic concept of jinn has been briefly discussed before in Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations. Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophetssa in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves. We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophetsa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.
Another important observation made by the Quran is in relation to the creation of the jinn. They are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).
And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). 1
Continues: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_3.html
The Jinn
PREPARE NOW to undertake a journey upon the wings of scientific vision into the ancient past to explore the nature and identity of the jinn. The Quranic concept of jinn has been briefly discussed before in Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations. Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophetssa in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves. We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophetsa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.
Another important observation made by the Quran is in relation to the creation of the jinn. They are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).
And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). 1
Continues: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_3.html
I feel like I'm linking and copy pasting too much but I love this book
PREPARE NOW to undertake a journey upon the wings of scientific vision into the ancient past to explore the nature and identity of the jinn. The Quranic concept of jinn has been briefly discussed before in Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations. Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophetssa in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves. We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophetsa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.
Another important observation made by the Quran is in relation to the creation of the jinn. They are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).
And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). 1
Continues: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_3.html
The Jinn
PREPARE NOW to undertake a journey upon the wings of scientific vision into the ancient past to explore the nature and identity of the jinn. The Quranic concept of jinn has been briefly discussed before in Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations. Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophetssa in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves. We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophetsa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.
Another important observation made by the Quran is in relation to the creation of the jinn. They are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).
And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). 1
Continues: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_3.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/
The definition your link gives is so made up... google Jinn on any source.. read the hadiths & read all the quranic verses about it and you'll see that the bacteria Jinnis are full of crap. Jinnis listen to the Quran & some of them are muslims others are not....they will be punished on judgment day.
Also, Solomon's miracle was that he talked to Animals as well as Jinns (they were his slaves and he had an army of them)
Hearing ants speech was a power of his. (Note that in the verse the ant is referred to as feminine which further showss that it is an ant, not a member of a tribe called ant.)
read this starting from part 2 & 3
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/ants.htm
Judaism has the same story of solomon and the ants.
Hmm...it's not "crap" it's just what we believe.
I don't get you snake_midget. When you post what your Sunni friends believe you do it with a condescending, almost mocking tone, and now that I posted what I believe you're rebutting with what your friends believe as if what they believe is 100% accurate to you.
I don't get you snake_midget. When you post what your Sunni friends believe you do it with a condescending, almost mocking tone, and now that I posted what I believe you're rebutting with what your friends believe as if what they believe is 100% accurate to you.
I used to do what you are doing, that is trying to find an explanation that escapes the criticism so that i can still claim my beliefs to be true. I used to think religion is true.. i just have to find a way to interpret scripture to escape the mistakes... there has to be some way.
Then i realized that i was squeezing my religion to some thing it is not.... and that i have to inquire whether its true or not as it is..rather than as what i could make it look like.
In other words,
I used to think that there is no way religion is wrong.. and so i started making up interpretations that suits modern science as much as i can so that i can continue believing it (even if they were unorthodox).
Then i realized how i made my religion to be is not how its creators meant it to be.
Don't draw the conclusion before the research even begins... try as much as you can to take a look on the Quran, Hadith & Sira of the prophet as if you are viewing it for the first time and draw your conclusions rather than someone elses..
And then tell me if you naturally concluded that Jinns are meant as bacteria, Demons as evil people, Creation as evolution, Ants as a tribe etc. (especially when you read hadiths)
Look at the differences between you sect and Sunni's and see why you guys agree on some thing and what you do not agree about. Look at the evidence and associate evidence to belief.(do not let belief precede the evidence)
Be honest to yourself and try to isolate everything that would affect your judgment (except for Quran & hadith)
I don't expect you to agree with me.. but I've been there and i think that you have the intelligence and open mindedness that will eventually make you feel the same way or something close to what I've felt. (you are one hell of a researcher i give you that)
Then i realized that i was squeezing my religion to some thing it is not.... and that i have to inquire whether its true or not as it is..rather than as what i could make it look like.
In other words,
I used to think that there is no way religion is wrong.. and so i started making up interpretations that suits modern science as much as i can so that i can continue believing it (even if they were unorthodox).
Then i realized how i made my religion to be is not how its creators meant it to be.
Don't draw the conclusion before the research even begins... try as much as you can to take a look on the Quran, Hadith & Sira of the prophet as if you are viewing it for the first time and draw your conclusions rather than someone elses..
And then tell me if you naturally concluded that Jinns are meant as bacteria, Demons as evil people, Creation as evolution, Ants as a tribe etc. (especially when you read hadiths)
Look at the differences between you sect and Sunni's and see why you guys agree on some thing and what you do not agree about. Look at the evidence and associate evidence to belief.(do not let belief precede the evidence)
Be honest to yourself and try to isolate everything that would affect your judgment (except for Quran & hadith)
I don't expect you to agree with me.. but I've been there and i think that you have the intelligence and open mindedness that will eventually make you feel the same way or something close to what I've felt. (you are one hell of a researcher i give you that)
I understand what you're saying but I really don't think that we're trying to 'mold' the teachings to fit the modern world. Seeing as the Promised Messiah lived over 110 years ago modern science has come a lot further since then and it is not as if our beliefs keep changing. As you know there is a lot in the Qur'an that doesn't make sense at some point but becomes clearer over time (as the book is meant to be for all of time).
I see that you stress Hadith a lot and I don't want to give you the impression that we don't follow hadith but we know that not all Hadith are authentic and even when it is, it is like the Qur'an subject to interpretation. The Qur'an is and will always remain the fundamental source and I don't think we have any arguments there.
From a personal stand point I can't believe in hokus pokus. If I was to believe what mainstream Muslims believe, and I say this with all due respect to the members here of the Sunni faith, then I'd rather not be a Muslim at all. There isn't much difference between what Christians believe and what mainstream Muslims believe.
I'll give you a small example. Sunni's believe that on the day of judgment (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Messiah (Jesus) will return and he will kill the dajjal (anti-Christ) and all the pigs. Honestly...how can I believe in something that sounds that ridiculous. It is no wonder that atheists mock religion when they hear these things.
I see that you stress Hadith a lot and I don't want to give you the impression that we don't follow hadith but we know that not all Hadith are authentic and even when it is, it is like the Qur'an subject to interpretation. The Qur'an is and will always remain the fundamental source and I don't think we have any arguments there.
From a personal stand point I can't believe in hokus pokus. If I was to believe what mainstream Muslims believe, and I say this with all due respect to the members here of the Sunni faith, then I'd rather not be a Muslim at all. There isn't much difference between what Christians believe and what mainstream Muslims believe.
I'll give you a small example. Sunni's believe that on the day of judgment (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Messiah (Jesus) will return and he will kill the dajjal (anti-Christ) and all the pigs. Honestly...how can I believe in something that sounds that ridiculous. It is no wonder that atheists mock religion when they hear these things.
But what if mainstream Islam IS Islam.. They don't believe in hokus pokus just for the sake of it.. they derive these from scripture. I know that the interpretations are often subjective, but sometimes evidence supports one interpretation over another. (i am not inviting you to show me your evidence & i'll show you mine)
It seems to me like those modern Christians who say that evolution & the big bang are mentioned in the bible and somehow they do find ways to support their theory.
To me they are too attached to religion yet they can't deny the scientific facts so they want to bake the cake and eat it too.
On another topic
Scripture is way too open for interpretation and is always accompanied by faith and everyone thinks they are right and the rest are wrong.
Religion being such a mess is another reason i bailed out. I just couldn't objectively decide which religion is true if not which sect and which interpretation. The God of these religions who will burn you in hell if you don't believe in crucifixion (for christians), who will burn you in hell if you don't believe Mohammad & the Quran (for muslims).. doesn't seem infinitely just at all. He gave us the scripture that is so open for interpretation and he gave us dogma(that is beyond human knowledge) in each of these religions yet he will punish us if we choose the wrong choice.. WTF!
A good analogy would be:
Its like having a 6 year old kid in an advanced quantum mechanics exam. You give the kid a question and he has a HUGE number of possible answers to choose from. Now Quantum Mechanics is real, its just beyond the kid's understanding/knowledge. So you give him a few hints that are very general and could be understood in a thousand different ways and it could lead the kid to any of the given choices in the Multiple choice question he has to answer. Then the kid has to decide if the correct answer is A, B, C,D or E etc. The kid tries to cheat the answer but he finds that there are Billions of people thinking A is right, Billions thinking B is right and the same for each choice. The kid then finds out that the other kids he was trying to cheat from are just as ignorant about the correct answer as he is.
Now if the kid fails that exam (makes the wrong choice, he is screwed for eternity)
I (the exam maker) don't seem very just don't i lol?
I being the kid in actual life, decided to not choose any of the choices (after i tried really hard to solve the problem that so far seems unsolvable as i am only a kid). You on the other hand have faith that C is the right answer even though you are ignorant about the correct answer as i am if not more. You just give weight to one of the general hints the exam maker gave you that can be interpreted in a thousand ways. This weight is because you feel its true.. the same way others feel its wrong.
I majored in philosophy specifically to find an answer and i still have no clue... all the evidence suggests that there is no exam at all. I am still looking... i'd like there to be God.. just not the one who wrote the scriptures.
It seems to me like those modern Christians who say that evolution & the big bang are mentioned in the bible and somehow they do find ways to support their theory.
To me they are too attached to religion yet they can't deny the scientific facts so they want to bake the cake and eat it too.
On another topic
Scripture is way too open for interpretation and is always accompanied by faith and everyone thinks they are right and the rest are wrong.
Religion being such a mess is another reason i bailed out. I just couldn't objectively decide which religion is true if not which sect and which interpretation. The God of these religions who will burn you in hell if you don't believe in crucifixion (for christians), who will burn you in hell if you don't believe Mohammad & the Quran (for muslims).. doesn't seem infinitely just at all. He gave us the scripture that is so open for interpretation and he gave us dogma(that is beyond human knowledge) in each of these religions yet he will punish us if we choose the wrong choice.. WTF!
A good analogy would be:
Its like having a 6 year old kid in an advanced quantum mechanics exam. You give the kid a question and he has a HUGE number of possible answers to choose from. Now Quantum Mechanics is real, its just beyond the kid's understanding/knowledge. So you give him a few hints that are very general and could be understood in a thousand different ways and it could lead the kid to any of the given choices in the Multiple choice question he has to answer. Then the kid has to decide if the correct answer is A, B, C,D or E etc. The kid tries to cheat the answer but he finds that there are Billions of people thinking A is right, Billions thinking B is right and the same for each choice. The kid then finds out that the other kids he was trying to cheat from are just as ignorant about the correct answer as he is.
Now if the kid fails that exam (makes the wrong choice, he is screwed for eternity)
I (the exam maker) don't seem very just don't i lol?
I being the kid in actual life, decided to not choose any of the choices (after i tried really hard to solve the problem that so far seems unsolvable as i am only a kid). You on the other hand have faith that C is the right answer even though you are ignorant about the correct answer as i am if not more. You just give weight to one of the general hints the exam maker gave you that can be interpreted in a thousand ways. This weight is because you feel its true.. the same way others feel its wrong.
I majored in philosophy specifically to find an answer and i still have no clue... all the evidence suggests that there is no exam at all. I am still looking... i'd like there to be God.. just not the one who wrote the scriptures.
Yes... not an expert though.
I've read Al Farabi, & Ibn Rushd's (Averroes) The incoherence of the Incoherence. (this included Gazzali)
I've read parts of Avicenna but not thoroughly.
I used to be a great fan of Ibn Rushd... until i read Aquinas..
its the same old shit with different dogmatic conclusions.
I've always hated Ghazzali.
Anyway,
I am an empiricist so metaphysics isn't worth much for me... its just fun and addictive... but its no way of finding "Truths".
I've read Al Farabi, & Ibn Rushd's (Averroes) The incoherence of the Incoherence. (this included Gazzali)
I've read parts of Avicenna but not thoroughly.
I used to be a great fan of Ibn Rushd... until i read Aquinas..
its the same old shit with different dogmatic conclusions.
I've always hated Ghazzali.
Anyway,
I am an empiricist so metaphysics isn't worth much for me... its just fun and addictive... but its no way of finding "Truths".
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