Prophet Muhammad ( may Allah exalt him and grant him peace) mentioned in the Bible (21 Viewers)

[Ford Prefect]

You said that being a part of a faith makes you accountable, do i need to quote you directly.

That means the 2 billion muslims are accountable. What else would it mean?

You also said that without religion atrocities wouldn't happen. But you still did not explain to me Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Last time i checked those were not muslims nor Christians.

Yes i did, i think maybe i should develop the thought further and just say that human are accountable for anything they have the ability to stop, but dont. But im feeling really confused and tired now, so im out. later

second thought all of those atrocities took place in a religious world...we dont know what would happen in an athiest world...id bet it would be a hell of a lot harder to fall out with eachother. And Nazi germany, as much as Hitler detested it, was extremely religious, so religious that two/three new sects of christianity came about during the Nazi Regime, so it was essentialy christians vs jews.

 

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[Fred]

Yes i did, i think maybe i should develop the thought further and just say that human are accountable for anything they have the ability to stop, but dont. But im feeling really confused and tired now, so im out. later

How could we have stopped it? Do you know that Arab governments are very strict when it comes to extremists, they are probably one of the most oppressed groups actually. In Libya you could go to jail without trial if the government has reason to believe that you are a part of Al Qaeda.

second thought all of those atrocities took place in a religious world...we dont know what would happen in an athiest world...id bet it would be a hell of a lot harder to fall out with eachother. And Nazi germany, as much as Hitler detested it, was extremely religious, so religious that two/three new sects of christianity came about during the Nazi Regime, so it was essentialy christians vs jews.

They took place in a religious world? What is that supposed to mean? So just because religions existed at the time where an atheist commited atrocities, then we can blame religion for that too. Meaning that even if you weren't religious and did evil things, you can still throw all of it on religions door. That makes a lot of sense mate

It was the Nazi Party that was responsible for the atrocities at the time. The Nazi party that was completely atheist, so no it wasn't a christian vs jew thing.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Dude im rele tired and my mind is all over the place....nicotine pangs, im sure everything iv said in the last hour makes no sense, ask me again tomorrow, maybe i will make some sense.

The Nazi party that was completely atheist,

It really really really really really really really wasn't. I have studied the nazis, nazi germany etc.etc.etc. for the last 10 if not more years, and i can promise the nazis were not completely athiest, they started faith movements for fucks sake.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

It was the Nazi Party that was responsible for the atrocities at the time. The Nazi party that was completely atheist, so no it wasn't a christian vs jew thing.

Someone has a lot to read up on.

 

[Fred]

I don't care what Hitler quotes you bring me on religion. All Abrahamic religions believe that God created the universe. Hitler was not a creatonist, that eliminates him from being a christian.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Who was talking about Hitler?

You need to read about Catholic priests and Nazis.

 

[bianconero]

This is completely irrelevant. Religion is not a matter of a clear definition where someone has to pass an exam to say they believe in the very specific creeds and nothing else. It's completely a matter of interpretation.

It's pointless to claim that Nazism is a creed of supremacy and religion isn't. Only in the eyes of the actual beholder does this distinction materialize or not. About which we know nothing.

I was relating Nazism to Communism.

 

[swag]

I was relating Nazism to Communism.

Again with the Obama jokes...

 

[Fred]

Who was talking about Hitler?

You need to read about Catholic priests and Nazis.

The Catholic church supported Nazism, that does not make the Nazi's Christians.

Hitler was an atheist and he committed all those atrocious acts, as much as it pains you guys to admit it. With or without religions atrocious and evil acts will always happen.

 

[Martin]

The Catholic church supported Nazism, that does not make the Nazi's Christians.

Hitler was an atheist and he committed all those atrocious acts, as much as it pains you guys to admit it. With or without religions atrocious and evil acts will always happen.

The Catholic church would not have supported Nazism just because they liked it. They may be scum, but they're not that evil. They supported it because the Nazis led a front in favor of Catholicism, against Protestantism. This was right up the Vatican's street. Why did they do this, just do get the Vatican's support? Tempting as that is, no. They simply were Catholics by and large, that's why. Hitler included.

Honestly, I don't know why it's so hard to believe. The Nazis bought their own story about race supremacy and believed in that whole thing didn't they? So why is it so hard to imagine they also drank the religious koolaid? Clearly they were gullible enough people to believe in fantasies.

 

[Fred]

Wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that Hitler was a catholic?

 

[Martin]

Wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that Hitler was a catholic?

Yes. Btw most Catholics I know don't even bother going to church, so it doesn't really mean much.

 

[Fred]

Yes. Btw most Catholics I know don't even bother going to church, so it doesn't really mean much.

Shocking statement.

I've always known Hitler to be a Pagan. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that he was a Christian. Just because he had a Catholic upbringing does not make him a Catholic.

So basically you're saying that Hitler's crimes were a result of him being a Christian not because he believed in Social Darwinism and the superiority of the Aryan race?

 

[Martin]

Shocking statement.

I've always known Hitler to be a Pagan. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that he was a Christian. Just because he had a Catholic upbringing does not make him a Catholic.

So basically you're saying that Hitler's crimes were a result of him being a Christian not because he believed in Social Darwinism and the superiority of the Aryan race?

No, not at all. I'm just saying he was a Christian, that's all.

Look, religion is a common thing, and although it's on the decline in Europe these days it was obviously very widespread in those days. And so Hitler and his people, many of them were Christians, just like most Germans at the time were either Christian or belonged to some other religion. This was not some organization that in any way shunned religion, far from it.

Now Communism, there was a movement that specifically persecuted religion. That's where they are very different. So if you wanna say the communists in Russia were atheists, go right ahead. At least their ideology specifically endorsed that position.

 

[Fred]

As long as you admit that religion had nothing to do with his crimes, then you can call him the fucking Pope for all i care.

I'm still not convinced he's a Chrisitian though, he's no more Christian than you are. All that connects him to christianity was that he was brought up as a Catholic.

But we are steering of the point here, and giving Ja5per a free pass. I'm not willing to debate what Hitler's religion is here. In fact i will for arguments sake assume that Hitler was a Christian.

Ja5per said that without religion atrocities wouldn't happen. Forget Hitler. I want him to explain Joseph Stalin's atrocities then.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Serious question...

Do you, or any other Muslim, think that you'd have been as religious (Muslim) if you were born in, say, Iceland with atheist parents, or Uruguay with Catholic parents?
The same question for the Christians. Do you think that you'd have been devoted Christians by now if you were born to Muslim parents in Yemen?

And I mean, if you were in Iceland and you somehow got to read the Quran or in Yemen and you got to read the bible.

I am not religious and i consider myself open minded, but if i ask myself the question if i'd have been an atheist if i was born in the mid ages to an ortodox Christian family in Byzantine or if i was born 30 years ago to a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia, my answer is "I don't know, probably not ".
I read both the Bible and the Quran and nothing's changed. Quite the contrary with the bible. It even made me more sure about my beliefs.

Do you guys, the religious ones, think that it's the surrounding, the culture that plays the main role in being religious or not or it's something else, much more stronger than that?

Disclaimer: i'm only answering you as we have talked before establishing your motives are purely educational, i will not argue the following


it's twofold really, Islam recognizes the effect of socialization(parents school culture) in shaping religious/ideological beliefs. Meaning born to a Christian family you ll be Christian Jewish family Jewish so on and so forth. But the example of Abtaham in the Quran and akhenaten, shows that the human mind is capable(expression of Divine justice) of attaining the monotheistic conclusion.

allegory to the story of abraham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayy_ibn_Yaqdhan

 

[Martin]

As long as you admit that religion had nothing to do with his crimes, then you can call him the fucking Pope for all i care.

I'm still not convinced he's a Chrisitian though, he's no more Christian than you are. All that connects him to christianity was that he was brought up as a Catholic.

The difference is I renounced them. I stopped going to church, I have nothing to do with them now. As far as I know he didn't. And I imagine if he had, people would be talking about it considering who he was, no?

 

[IrishZebra]

ReichsKirche

 

[Ford Prefect]

As long as you admit that religion had nothing to do with his crimes, then you can call him the fucking Pope for all i care.

I'm still not convinced he's a Chrisitian though, he's no more Christian than you are. All that connects him to christianity was that he was brought up as a Catholic.

But we are steering of the point here, and giving Ja5per a free pass. I'm not willing to debate what Hitler's religion is here. In fact i will for arguments sake assume that Hitler was a Christian.

Ja5per said that without religion atrocities wouldn't happen. Forget Hitler. I want him to explain Joseph Stalin's atrocities then.

I kind of meant without support or the feeling of support in general, this is the religious section so we are talking about religion. Hitler may not have been religious (he was raised catholic, has jewish grandparents ) but his party was, he recognised the importance of religion to indoctrinate people, the catholic church supported the nazis and the german populace in turn did aswell. When i said 'these kinds of attrocities' Thats exactly what i meant, religious attrocities. The concept transends religion as we can see with stalin who had popular support for what he was doing and getting away with the murder of over 15 million people. If he didnt have popular support he couldnt have got away with. Just because one person does the crime, doesnt mean others arent to blame for allowing it to happen. That is why 'Accessory to *random crime*' is in the British judicial system. That is why people need to realise just how accountable they are for what happeneds around. Russia is the perfect example in 1917 of a regime not having popularr support and being taken out because of it, the same can happen anywhere, people just need to stand up.

 

[Fred]

Ok.

But you still didn't explain to me how Stalin, an atheist that had nothing to do with religion committed all those crimes. I mean didn't you say that religion was the cause of all atrocities, then what about Stalin?