Praying to god for Juve (2 Viewers)

[Martin]

It is said that humans are greedy and selfish, and generally noone would argue with that. But what a perfect case study.

Let's go over the facts, shall we? Two teams are out there on the pitch. Two sets of fans are sitting on the couch at home. There is only one winner. If my team wins, that automatically means the rival fans are on the losing side.

And so I pray to god. Please, god, make my team win, help them win. Give them the strength they need and the will to do it. I will be so grateful if you do. This means so much to me.

Imagine that you're a parent and you have two kids. They are playing chess. One kid whispers in your ear. "Please mom/dad, help me win this game. Do something to help me, and you can do it so that my brother won't know it was you." What do you say to this? Most parents I know would say "look son, I can't do that, it would be unfair to your brother. I love you both and I can't take sides. I can help you, but not at his expense."

Praying for your team to win is unethical. You want god to help make you happy and make someone else unhappy in the process. How can you possibly justify such selfishness and greed?

 

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[Lawnchair Bes]

the money i was wagering

but on a more serious note, you are correct Martin

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

by the way people, you're welcome

i am gonna come out and say it. the second time we were playing real in the cl elimination games and juve won 2-0 (trezeguet and zalayeta) i did pray to god. i had a lot of money riding in that game and at that time i couldnt really afford to loose it.

i looked at the ceiling, and i told him that from that moment on, i would be a much better person if he made juventus win. juventus won and from that moment on, i became a better person. i respected everyone's beliefs and help them out whenever i can, if it doesn't inconvenience me to much and as long as they return the favour. i also try and help people by making them laugh, so i joke a lot but sometimes the jokes aren't that funny, but god doesn't mind, he knows i mean well.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe not unethcial, but futile.

I used to wonder about that. I said, if I and 10,000 other Juve fans are praying for this and 10,001 inter fans are praying for the opposite, God (for those of you who believe) is not gonna choose one over the other. You're not gonna change His will, asking for personal causes is different though, not at the expense of others.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

and those come true?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

somtimes

 

[Dinsdale]

Funny and true.

 

[Ramin]

..

The more Juve sucks, the more religious threads opening up. Is this a trend?

 

[Bjerknes]

This is God's punishment for having homosexuals in Italy.

 

[rounder]

It is said that humans are greedy and selfish, and generally noone would argue with that. But what a perfect case study.

Let's go over the facts, shall we? Two teams are out there on the pitch. Two sets of fans are sitting on the couch at home. There is only one winner. If my team wins, that automatically means the rival fans are on the losing side.

And so I pray to god. Please, god, make my team win, help them win. Give them the strength they need and the will to do it. I will be so grateful if you do. This means so much to me.

Imagine that you're a parent and you have two kids. They are playing chess. One kid whispers in your ear. "Please mom/dad, help me win this game. Do something to help me, and you can do it so that my brother won't know it was you." What do you say to this? Most parents I know would say "look son, I can't do that, it would be unfair to your brother. I love you both and I can't take sides. I can help you, but not at his expense."

Praying for your team to win is unethical. You want god to help make you happy and make someone else unhappy in the process. How can you possibly justify such selfishness and greed?

That's an interesting point of view. When you pray for a good job at your company; you are praying at the expense of others. When you pray to get the highest grade in your class; you are doing so at the price of others. In fact, most if the things we pray for come at the expense of others.

Some atheists argue that they once prayed for something and it didn't happen. They prayed for their lamp to float in mid air and it never happened, therefore there cannot be a god. I am not joking, this is really some atheists' arguments.

I think ultimately, we all hope for what's best for us and whom we love. In any case, we are being selfish. I don't know why this should be viewed as taboo or bad. It is simply reasonable. Why should I pray for someone I don't know about to succeed, I will obviously pray for my self and those around me. It doesn't have to mean we are greedy, it just means we like to succeed.

We were brought up with an egotistic mentality. In the west, the person that strives, accomplishes, and achieves is the one everyone respects and admires. In the east, it is the exact opposite. People who are humble, unselfish, and undriven are the ones that are admired. They admire selflessness when we admire selfishness. It is a generelization to say all humans are greedy because not all of us are. Most of the population in the east would never hope for good to happen to them. I suppose it is just the different enviroments and cultures we were brought up in.

 

[Dinsdale]

..

The more Juve sucks, the more religious threads opening up. Is this a trend?

We need something to fall back on.

 

[HelterSkelter]

Martin im sorry.

But you think too much

 

[Martin]

That's an interesting point of view. When you pray for a good job at your company; you are praying at the expense of others. When you pray to get the highest grade in your class; you are doing so at the price of others. In fact, most if the things we pray for come at the expense of others.

The point I'm making is that praying for something to benefit you at the expense of someone else (which I strongly suspect makes up most of what people pray for in our competitive world) is selfish and immoral, and hardly anything to be admired or applauded.

 

[rounder]

The point I'm making is that praying for something to benefit you at the expense of someone else (which I strongly suspect makes up most of what people pray for in our competitive world) is selfish and immoral, and hardly anything to be admired or applauded.

I agree. This is why I despise the competitiveness nature our world has enforced on us. This is also why I'm an anti-capitalist, I strongly think that it is immoral to believe in capitalism. We are enojoying our lives at the expense of other people's misery. Many would probably disagree with me, but this is what I feel.

The whole concept of jealousy and spite has mounted from the competitiveness our society promotes. Imagine a world free from jealousy, spite, hate, selfishness, and hunger. To me, that is the perfect world.

 

[Marceℓℓo]

I pray before every corner and freekick.

 

[Cronios]

God could help us by the end of the last season,
He could enlighten some of our managers, but there is no hope anymore...

 

[Geof]

Actually if you listen to the players who pray before matches, they'll more often say that they asked God to give them the strength to honour Him and things like that.

Well, there are certainly people asking God for a win, but come on, God is not Moggi.

 

[Rhizoid]

Martin - on the topic of selfishness: it can be argued that each and every human action regardless of how genuine, noble, benevolent, philanthropic, criminal, or evil; is motivated by a selfish means.

So let's say I gave a $100 bill to a poor beggar, who's face lit up in tears in disbelief of such generosity. How did I benefit then? Perhaps, that good feeling inside, like a sense of pride that you have done a good deed - something very unique, on average a beggar probably gets peanuts worth of money from passers-by.

I prayed for Juve to score in the last minute, but they end up losing. The very fact that I prayed, and turned to God for that moment shows that I am someone with faith, and belief that God wills for such an outcome or destiny.

I disagree with your example on Parents advising one of two brothers playing chess. This comparison is irrelevant to the idea of asking God for advice, help, guidance, luck etc.....

Understood - the parent/chess example is a moral issue on fairness, and someone else gaining an unfair advantage.

Prayer in this context (ie as per the discussion in this thread) is hoping a particular outcome plays out the way you wanted it. Yes it is selfish. However, as a definition, concept, and practice it is not meant to be as such.

But everything happens at the expense of something. THat is the way of the world, it's like a natural law. For every gain, there is a loss...that doesn't mean God is unfair and therefore selfish and immoral.

Which is why I disagree with the parent/chess example....

By the way, again I speak from an Islamic perspective - we don't believe that "Oh you should pray and God will do everything for you, so just pray on time, and sit back and relax."

On the contrary, Islam philosophy encourages one to pray and make dua'a prayers - to pray for other's good fortunes and be thankful, before praying for your own hopes and dreams.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

For me it's just a matter of asking, I don't really care about other people or if other Interisti will suffer. I'll just ask, and hope for the best, and being a God believer I believe God would know better and produce a scenario that's best for all. Yes, even if Juve loses, you (I) just accept it. It's not like it's something most of us can't handle, and what would ultimate victory be without losing anyway. There's always a bigger picture

 

[Elvin]

The parent could pick one of the siblings based on what they've "deserved", based on their behavior, grades etc. And say like "I will help your brother, because he's been a good boy".

Same with God I guess, In the long(est) run you get what you deserve.