Platini : If I Were UEFA President... (1 Viewer)

OP
Ahmed

Ahmed

Principino
Sep 3, 2006
47,928
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #61
    The smaller European countries can only become more competitive if thet have the money to get better players from Africa South America etc...and participation in the UCL is vital for them...so the more places they have the beter chance they have of imrproving themsleves by earning more money and more international exposure...
     

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    V

    Senior Member
    Jun 8, 2005
    20,110
    #62
    • V

      V

    Seven, you have a very biased point of view on this, for reasons i can't figure out, either you don't follow your national championship or don't care for it. but it doesn't matter actually because one thing's for sure, it's in a better position than mine, or fli's is, as it gets a cl spot or two regulary, so of course you wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

    in today's format the cl favours the big teams and kills the small teams, not only the teams but the whole leauges. from your point of view of course you won't care, i probably wouldn't as well, but put yourself in some other position. the champion of croatia gets into the second qualifying round of the uefa cl, THE CHAMPION, surely it's no attractive quality leauge but still. and at the same time a forth placed team from italy, spain, england..gets the same treatment. from a completelly neutral point of view, something is obviously not correct here. anyways so year in and out croatian, and numerous others, champions get knocked out in the third qualifying round by exactly those teams who finished 3rd or 4th in their respective leauges! not only is this killing the teams, the leauges, the players, it's killing the fans! you may not understand that but players in such leauges don't have anything to play for, cl is practically unreachable to them, no matter what they do. players play for money and whenever the chance comes they run to some leauge in qatar, lybia or whichever just because they will get good money, same money their own club would be able to give them if it wasn't taken from by uefa and it's system. young talents slowly get destroyed, national teams suffer, people loose interest in football itself, just because they can't get quality football in their own backyard.

    and no, it's not because croatian football is horrible and teams suck, we have some impressive results, for such a small country, behind us both in the national team competitions and club competitions. dinamo zagreb won the uefa cup back in the 50's or 60's, i can't remember exactly but it wasn't called that back than. another example i don't know if you remember it, but i think you probably will, but in 1995, in the old cl format, there was one croatian team that entered the cl, hajduk split. they were in a group with benfica, steaua and anderlecht. it may not mean much for you but it does for me, and the whole croatian nation, hajduk passed the group stages! that team had names such as robert jarni, aljosa asanovic, slaven bilic, igor stimac, alen boksic, those were all world class players, surely that was our golden generation but not cause of luck or anything else, it was cause they had something to play for! wow! not only did they enter the cl but they passed the group stages! and what happened next? they played one of europe's biggest teams ever, ajax! they drew on home turf 0:0, i don't think you can imagine the euphoria that took over the whole nation! of course the next game they lost to a clearly superior opponent 3:0, but the whole nation was proud and till this day we look back to that year, it was 12 years ago, not too long ago, but such a time with this format will probably never ever come again.

    now i'm sorry pal because you don't care, but i'd rather see my team trashed and smashed year in and out by europe's greatest, if it means football here will have some meaning, and if in 10 years a generation that will make us proud will come once again. i think that's more important than one(one meant sarcasticly) man's from belgium desire to watch the best teams face each other every year and feed of the uefa money. but like i said, you can't possibly understand that, you have a pretty competitive leauge which gets europe's highest competitons year in and out, so all that's left for you care is to care for your own personal enjoyment.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,215
    #63
    FYI Belgium got the exact same treatment for years. My main point is that you'll make the CL less of a CL in fact. Not to mention that it doesn't seem very fair to me that Milan will hardly ever make it to the CL, but Croatia Zagreb or Hajduk have a very good chance. Like I said, it's easier to end up first in countries such as Croatia than it is in Italy. Serie A, Primera Division and EPL deserve more than one spot. However, I don't think they should get four.
     
    OP
    Ahmed

    Ahmed

    Principino
    Sep 3, 2006
    47,928
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #64
    Champions = 1st place

    Champions League = 1st 2nd 3rd even 4th from Eng Ita Esp...

    is that right? NOPE
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,215
    #65
    ahmedz said:
    Champions = 1st place

    Champions League = 1st 2nd 3rd even 4th from Eng Ita Esp...

    is that right? NOPE
    I never said it was right. I said I didn't care about right.
     

    V

    Senior Member
    Jun 8, 2005
    20,110
    #66
    • V

      V

    Seven said:
    FYI Belgium got the exact same treatment for years. My main point is that you'll make the CL less of a CL in fact. Not to mention that it doesn't seem very fair to me that Milan will hardly ever make it to the CL, but Croatia Zagreb or Hajduk have a very good chance. Like I said, it's easier to end up first in countries such as Croatia than it is in Italy. Serie A, Primera Division and EPL deserve more than one spot. However, I don't think they should get four.
    that's a different thing, i don't think croatian leauge or those kind of leauges should get more than one place, but i think that one place should be an automatic entry, as they are the champions, after all it's a champions leauge. if anything makes it less of cl leauge it's the fact that a 2nd place team gets an automatic entry and a champion gets the 2nd qual. round. it's not fair, and it's not good for football in general. i'm not saying there should be equal treatment, as the difference in quality is obvious, but some changes have to be made. big leauges should get more spots, but weaker leauges shouldn't have such a difficult task in order to get into the damn thing.
     

    Jun-hide

    Senior Member
    Dec 16, 2002
    2,068
    #67
    I generally admire Seven's love for a good game and he kind of reminds me of Arsene Wenger in that nationality doesnt matter as long as a two legged animal can kick a ball or two.:D . And I agree with his general point that the more expansive the game become it is only the better for the fans in general. I cannot imagine that we would have the kind of depth in class today without the financial attraction the big europeans and cl brings to the players. Beside, he isnt against cutting down the number of spots in a big leagues by any means. I think Seven is just wary against taking this competition into an old format whereby only the "champions" are allowed to participate in the tournament, which clearly is undesirable.

    Nonetheless I believe CL has far more potential than just being a European tournament which it is right now. In fact, I think it is only viable way in which to create a competitive and legitimate world tournament since we all know how much FIFA is trying to sell that world-club championship is fun, it is a futile effort.
    As Vlakto right said, I think in the long run it is actually in the benefit of the competition itself if there is some diversity of nations in CL. I mean who would enjoy Arsenal vs Chelsea final or Juve vs Milan other than the people in their respective countries. Part of allure of CL is that the "champions" of their respective countries represent the nations they participate in and fans in that country can identify themselves in a similar fashion to the international competition. The competition is in a big danger of becoming a mini amalgation of big domestic leagues rather than being an "european competition".

    I guess whole theme is about the "access" to the competition. I feel instead of relying on global popularity of big teams to generate interest and revenues - UEFA can make far bigger money by making the competition more accesible to the smaller nations and other parts of the world. It will also be better on the long-term on quality wise by giving legitimate means by which teams in these small countries can nurture young talents that we can all benefit in the future.

    I mean one may complain that why on earth a team from Asia should take place of far better European nations that didnt qualify. But without these Asian teams the whole concept of the "world-cup" would be meaningless. Also it brings the diversity and global interests that all countries in sometime future can participate in the tournament with some luck, and it is this hope as much as quality on show that sustain its lusture on a global stage.
     

    sateeh

    Day Walker
    Jul 28, 2003
    8,020
    #68
    u make a valid point vlat and i really understand the situation.

    But i have some points i would like to add to the discussion:

    1.If there were spaces allocated some counteries, how about the other smaller countries like San Marino, Luxembourg.Its only fair they get a chance, even though they r not super powers of Europe.

    2.The other thing is the time that it would take the "smaller" teams on the european stage to actually do something. Fli said that the Bulgarian fans enjoyed every minute of the losses in their group stages.Well so did the Barca fans and their team.
    It would take a very long time for those teams to actually do something,except for the odd year or so.

    3.U talked abt hajduk split, so this means that if there is a team thats good enough then it could make it. They get places in qualifiers, and if those teams r good enough they will make it
     

    V

    Senior Member
    Jun 8, 2005
    20,110
    #70
    • V

      V

    san marino, luxembourg are a little drastic examples, i don't know if they even have a professional football leauge.

    sateeh said:
    3.U talked abt hajduk split, so this means that if there is a team thats good enough then it could make it. They get places in qualifiers, and if those teams r good enough they will make it
    there in lies the problem my firend. hajduk in '95 was placed in a preliminary round against legia of warsav. ONE prelimary round! today you have 3! even if you somehow pass the first 2 rounds, in the third you are bound to get a 3rd or 4th placed team from one of the big leauges. the outcome is evident in 95% of cases, so don't make it like they have a chance, they're just not good enough, it's not like that, everything works against them in this system. a knockout system is the worst thing for a inferior team, there are no second chances, so teams that are champions, in their respective leauges, are practically doomed to fail even before the competition started.

    there are too many teams in general, and the end of it is big teams prevail and small teams get thrown out. in the old system you had a chance, one qualifier round against a better or equal team and you're in! and if you do get in, the money comes and most of all motivation! those 6 matches are like a carnival of succes to small teams, and sometimes that small team makes an upset, like hajduk did in '95. of course levski sofia's fans are thrilled, why wouldnt they be? their players get to fac off with the biggest names of the game, the stadiums are packed, the people are living for those 90 minutes. even their home championship will be more competitive because levski made it somehow, that will bring extra motivation to all the teams in bulgary. but i'm not holding my breath they will be able to make it again. with the way the system is ow, it just simply doesn't work.

    the true cl is dead imo, this more of a european super leauge.
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    #71
    Seven said:
    Back then you hardly had globalization in the world of football. Let's face it, Juventus will now get the best players in Italy and will attract numerous stars from all over the globe. Why? Because they're Juventus. I see the point you're trying to make, but you're forgetting that there's a huge gap between teams such as Juventus and Sofia. If you want Sofia to be competitive you'll have to use that knockout system for 20 years straight and no customer is going to wait that long to see some exciting football.
    are you saying that juventus of boniperti, charles and sivori was not a good team? they were the best team in italy but still they were destroyed by bunch a amateurs from austria. we have a saying in lithuania, even a stick shoots once a year. so i do believe that once every few years some giants can go down to minor opposition. in 2004 monaco reached the final destroying real and chelsea on the way. and they werent exactly a superpower. and to prove my point further, they were destroyed by modern day football just one year later..


    oh, and ill wait 30 years to watch oppotunistic eastern europeans with nopthing to lose attitute to take on barca than watch liverpool. i can bet my bollocks that would be so much more entertaining :D
     

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
    #72
    The number of maximum strangers in all teams should be 5 at the top.

    Add to that that they shouldn´t be giving double nationalities to a large number of players.

    Finally, Transfers Quotes and Wages have to be reduced furthermore.

    I know they dropped dramatically, but still that needs an improvement.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,215
    #73
    Fliakis said:
    are you saying that juventus of boniperti, charles and sivori was not a good team? they were the best team in italy but still they were destroyed by bunch a amateurs from austria. we have a saying in lithuania, even a stick shoots once a year. so i do believe that once every few years some giants can go down to minor opposition. in 2004 monaco reached the final destroying real and chelsea on the way. and they werent exactly a superpower. and to prove my point further, they were destroyed by modern day football just one year later..


    oh, and ill wait 30 years to watch oppotunistic eastern europeans with nopthing to lose attitute to take on barca than watch liverpool. i can bet my bollocks that would be so much more entertaining :D
    Ah, but then there's nothing wrong with the formule, as that's already what you want?
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #74
    Jun-hide said:
    Nonetheless I believe CL has far more potential than just being a European tournament which it is right now. In fact, I think it is only viable way in which to create a competitive and legitimate world tournament since we all know how much FIFA is trying to sell that world-club championship is fun, it is a futile effort.
    As Vlakto right said, I think in the long run it is actually in the benefit of the competition itself if there is some diversity of nations in CL. I mean who would enjoy Arsenal vs Chelsea final or Juve vs Milan other than the people in their respective countries. Part of allure of CL is that the "champions" of their respective countries represent the nations they participate in and fans in that country can identify themselves in a similar fashion to the international competition. The competition is in a big danger of becoming a mini amalgation of big domestic leagues rather than being an "european competition".
    You forget football isn't the #1 sport in many European countries. A small nation like Holland has been able to set its footprint on the European football championships because it is absolutely mad about football and serious amounts of money are being spent on the sport in various ways. In Holland's case, enthusiasm for a Champions League without Dutch clubs would turn out to be a very disillusioning figure indeed.

    That doesn't go for many smaller nations throughout the continent such as Ireland where rugby is vastly more popular than football and even in Holland the decline in quality of the Eredivisie has spiralled enthusiasm for other sports into new dimensions.

    The point is this: nations and regions where football is a minor or at least not the biggest sport have traditionally small fanbases that generate only small amounts of money. Many football fans in said countries enjoy watching the sport as it is being played by the bigger teams from the bigger leagues on the continent. They might welcome the occasional success by one of their own clubs, but wouldn't mind if it never happened. Even the fans in those regions prefer watching Chelsea vs Barcelona as opposed to Liverpool vs FC Local Trash

    With that in mind, and the additional dimension of Ajax fans celebrating whenever PSV get their asses kicked in Europe, I would argue your point about a lesser version of nationalism playing a role stands without serious foundations.
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    #75
    snoop said:
    I don't think CL needs to change it's format, except the name maybe? the "champions" thing? who gives a damn about the name anyway? :confused:

    Leave it like this, the old format wasn't as exciting as it is now, and specially the ones where there were only knock outs. thou I would be more satisfied if they add the second group phase too, the more matches the better..
    disagree completely. this format seemed fun while juve were in the competition. now that they're out the group stage is a real bore. barely watched a game. there's no excitement at all. a knock out would bring that imo.
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    #76
    mark83 said:
    The number of maximum strangers in all teams should be 5 at the top.

    Add to that that they shouldn´t be giving double nationalities to a large number of players.

    Finally, Transfers Quotes and Wages have to be reduced furthermore.

    I know they dropped dramatically, but still that needs an improvement.
    you cant limit number of eu players in the team. the only thing that can be done is the minimum of home grown players.
     

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
    #78
    Fliakis said:
    you cant limit number of eu players in the team. the only thing that can be done is the minimum of home grown players.
    I meant non-EU players.

    And I agree on you about home grown players.:agree:
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    #79
    mark83 said:
    I meant non-EU players.

    And I agree on you about home grown players.:agree:
    no point in limiting foreigners when theres a quota for home grown ones. if a team must field at least 5 home grown players, which imo should be the case, who cares if the remaining six are germans or brazilians?
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #80
    mark83 said:
    I meant non-EU players.

    And I agree on you about home grown players.:agree:
    What Fliakis said, plus:

    Limiting the number of foreign (be that EU or non-EU) players in a team is a very tricky legal procedure. It's very hard to come up with a law that installs such a maximum without violating the pan-European non-discrimination rights. It's virtually impossible.
     

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