Paulo Dybala (89 Viewers)

[BayernFan]

Id say 4) is pretty accurate. We have had more iconic players throughout the history, more balon d'or winners. 3) is obviously false, at least in the last decade, dont need much proof other than income statement. 1) and 3) are debatable.

Yes Juve had more Ballon d'Or winners but a lot of Bayern players came runners up to the Ballon d'Or, be it Klinsmann, Oliver Kahn, Ribery. And this year (2020) Lewandowski should've won it if it wasn't for the French Football frauds

Ballon d'Or turned into a joke in the last decade anyway

 

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[Vlad]

Yes Juve had more Ballon d'Or winners but a lot of Bayern players came runners up to the Ballon d'Or, be it Klinsmann, Oliver Kahn, Ribery. And this year Lewandowski should've won it if it wasn't for the French Football frauds

Ballon d'Or turned into a joke in the last decade anyway

Juve also finished CL runners up on 7 occasions

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Football landscape has changed a lot. Before Calciopolli Id safely claim Juve, Milan, Real, Bayern, Barcelona and maybe Liverpool are historically above anyone else. Money played a big role but wasnt as important as nowdays. Now everything is inflated, with emergence of oil clubs. Salaries are off the charts, clubs are accumulating huge debts to finance salaries, which is insane. Just doesnt feel the same. If I havent been supporting this club for +25 years, football wouldnt interest me at all now.

 

[DAiDEViL]

Are you surprised?

No.

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That was when Barzagli was at Wolfsburg and didn't really do a whole lot.

In his first year there he was one of of their most important players though.

 

[BayernFan]

Juve also finished CL runners up on 7 occasions

Lol, good one

This is exactly my point, Bayern had as much unluck in Ballon d'Or as Juve have had in CL finals, 2020 is a perfect example of this. You have a player who stands out the most and outscores everyone, but France Football surrendered as the frauds they are even though Lewa was the clear winner, fuck them

Well at least he won the "Best player in Europe" and "FIFA The Best", especially the last one has got a lot more credibility these years imo

But if we go with Ballon d'Or winners then apparently Barca must be the GOAT club according to Elvin?

 

[Vlad]

Lol, good one

This is exactly my point, Bayern had as much unluck in Ballon d'Or as Juve have had in CL finals, 2020 is a perfect example of this. You have a player who stands out the most and outscores everyone, but France Football surrendered as the frauds they are even though Lewa was the clear winner, fuck them

Well at least he won the "Best player in Europe" and "FIFA The Best", especially the last one has got a lot more credibility these years imo

But if we go with Ballon d'Or winners then apparently Barca must be the GOAT club according to Elvin?

Combination of multiple factors ofc, balon d'or just being one of them if we are to measure prestige players. Club trophies, history and overall wealth are more important.

 

[BayernFan]

Combination of multiple factors ofc, balon d'or just being one of them if we are to measure prestige players. Club trophies, history and overall wealth are more important.

Exactly.

Overall history has Juve been in the game longer than Bayern in the sense that you started winning more than 100 years ago, Bayern's first league title came in 1932 and we had to wait until 1969 before we won the second.

With that said I think it's important to remember the history of Germany in the 30's and 40's and what consequences it had for the country. Bayern had a golden generation in the start 30's but was broken up when the Nazis came to power and as Bayern was having a Jewish president in Kurt Landauer then the club had some rough years under the Nazi rule, else they would no doubt have started the golden years in the 30's as I see it.

It wasn't until the mid 60's Bayern first re-emerged with the likes of Franz Beckenbauer, Sepp Maier, Gerd Müller, Paul Breitner and so on.

So like said - Juve has been a top club for more years than Bayern, but I think Bayern is ahead if we talk European Cup/history as we played in more finals and won it more than Juve, but you played in a historic stronger league and started winning the titles before us.

But a "kids club"? I mean, that's just not serious. Bayern is a true giant of the game and only Real Madrid can truly say they're bigger than us.

 

[Vlad]

Tbh I dont know what would inspire a young person these days to start following a football club. What are the values they promote? Watching 22 multimillioners feigning contacts, crying at the slightest touch, sulking up when subbed off, promoting wierd fashion trends, instagram posts, etc... I dont see any value in it. But I guess Im becoming too old

 

[DAiDEViL]

Originally this wasn't about who's bigger.

Elvin said ambition wise they were a kids club compared to us - and that's pure nonsense.

 

[Vlad]

Exactly.

Overall history has Juve been in the game longer than Bayern in the sense that you started winning more than 100 years ago, Bayern's first league title came in 1932 and we had to wait until 1969 before we won the second.

With that said I think it's important to remember the history of Germany in the 30's and 40's and what consequences it had for the country. Bayern had a golden generation in the start 30's but was broken up when the Nazis came to power and as Bayern was having a Jewish president in Kurt Landauer then the club had some rough years under the Nazi rule, else they would no doubt have started the golden years in the 30's as I see it.

It wasn't until the mid 60's Bayern first re-emerged with the likes of Franz Beckenbauer, Sepp Maier, Gerd Müller, Paul Breitner and so on.

So like said - Juve has been a top club for more years than Bayern, but I think Bayern is ahead if we talk European Cup/history as we played in more finals and won it more than Juve, but you played in a historic stronger league and started winning the titles before us.

But a "kids club"? I mean, that's just not serious. Bayern is a true giant of the game and only Real Madrid can truly say they're bigger than us.

Hence why Ive said disregard that

Its no match in recent years and overall you have surpassed us, not by much but we have a catching up to do. Another reason why Juventus didnt win more in Europe, although huge number of finals is still impressive and shouldnt be disregarded, was that Serie A for a long long while was considered NBA of football. Scudetto came first, then everything else and this was a mindset of average Italian which reflected on the pitch. It was far harder to win Serie A than German league for instance, not in recent years though. We have more historic rivalries domestically.

 

[BayernFan]

Originally this wasn't about who's bigger.

Elvin said ambition wise they were a kids club compared to us - and that's pure nonsense.

I know but when he started on all the other nonsense then I had to make some points regarding the prestige, money and all that.

What is even a so called "kids club"? Is it Arsenal?

 

[Elvin]

Exactly.

Overall history has Juve been in the game longer than Bayern in the sense that you started winning more than 100 years ago, Bayern's first league title came in 1932 and we had to wait until 1969 before we won the second.

With that said I think it's important to remember the history of Germany in the 30's and 40's and what consequences it had for the country. Bayern had a golden generation in the start 30's but was broken up when the Nazis came to power and as Bayern was having a Jewish president in Kurt Landauer then the club had some rough years under the Nazi rule, else they would no doubt have started the golden years in the 30's as I see it.

It wasn't until the mid 60's Bayern first re-emerged with the likes of Franz Beckenbauer, Sepp Maier, Gerd Müller, Paul Breitner and so on.

So like said - Juve has been a top club for more years than Bayern, but I think Bayern is ahead if we talk European Cup/history as we played in more finals and won it more than Juve, but you played in a historic stronger league and started winning the titles before us.

But a "kids club"? I mean, that's just not serious. Bayern is a true giant of the game and only Real Madrid can truly say they're bigger than us.

Ok kids club was too much, I admit. But suggesting switching to Bayern if I wanted more trophies provoked me

 

[Xperd]

Elvin's sentiment can be understood to an extent. Although it was outrageously weird to call them a kid's club. Juventus were a richer and more popular club pre calciopoli, so were the likes of United.
Despite winning so many titles and being dominant in Europe, they haven't quite established themselves as one of the two/three GOAT brands in football and that's primarily due to the Bundesliga. No sustained domestic rivalry and nowhere near the overseas popularity as other leagues so their growth is somewhat stunted as a result. Even Serie A in its shittiest state will be a more popular league than Bundesliga.
If Bundesliga was more open to foreign ownership, maybe things could have worked out a bit differently for them.
Maybe this is why Agnelli emphasized more on marketing seeing how our growth was being stunted by the poor state of the league. Unfortunately it came at the expense of making sacrifices in other areas of the pitch with some poor ecruitment to go along with it to make matters worse.

 

[BayernFan]

Ok kids club was too much, I admit. But suggesting switching to Bayern if I wanted more trophies provoked me

And what you said provoked me as well because some of it was quite rubbish and I think you know it yourself since you didn't adress any of the points I made.

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Elvin's sentiment can be understood to an extent. Although it was outrageously weird to call them a kid's club. Juventus were a richer and more popular club pre calciopoli, so were the likes of United.
Despite winning so many titles and being dominant in Europe, they haven't quite established themselves as one of the two/three GOAT brands in football and that's primarily due to the Bundesliga. No sustained domestic rivalry and nowhere near the overseas popularity as other leagues so their growth is somewhat stunted as a result. Even Serie A in its shittiest state will be a more popular league than Bundesliga.
If Bundesliga was more open to foreign ownership, maybe things could have worked out a bit differently for them.
Maybe this is why Agnelli emphasized more on marketing seeing how our growth was being stunted by the poor state of the league. Unfortunately it came at the expense of making sacrifices in other areas of the pitch with some poor ecruitment to go along with it to make matters worse.

I simply don't see what you say because Bayern is a very popular club worldwide, even given the Bundesliga is not that popular like PL or La Liga. But there's a reason Bayern got the highest membership of all football clubs in the world, you wouldn't have that if your brand is not top notch.

Yes the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, United and maybe Liverpool got more fans worldwide but that's also about it.

 

[Elvin]

And what you said provoked me as well because some of it was quite rubbish and I think you know it yourself since you didn't adress any of the points I made.

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Yes the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, United and maybe Liverpool got more fans worldwide but that's also about it.

Juve, Milan and Inter have more fans worldwide than Bayern.
It's not Bayern's fault or anything, it's just how it is due to the popularity of their leagues, historically, and even now.

 

[BayernFan]

Juve, Milan and Inter have more fans worldwide than Bayern.
It's not Bayern's fault or anything, it's just how it is due to the popularity of their leagues, historically, and even now.

Have you just completely lost it? Unless you show me anything backing up what you're saying then I won't take it for anything else than what it is - worthless, baseless trolling

I don't think you're even believing yourself in that rubbish you're writing but you're just trying to get a reaction out of me - and I certainly took the bait

 

[RoiLezard]

Have you just completely lost it? Unless you show me anything backing up what you're saying then I won't take it for anything else than what it is - worthless, baseless trolling

I don't think you're even believing yourself in that rubbish you're writing but you're just trying to get a reaction out of me - and I certainly took the bait

I don’t think there are stats to prove his claims but I get his point. From personal experience, I don’t come across so many people who are Bayern fans, bar bavarians who are die hard Bayern fans. Worldwide, it’s always and primarily Real and Barça then Man U, Juve, Milan and even merda, also Liverpool in recent years. With that being said, I wish we had Bayern’s success and stature in Europe, I would trade all of our individuals trophies throughout history for an extra couple of CL titles lol.


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[BayernFan]

I don’t think there are stats to prove his claims but I get his point. From personal experience, I don’t come across so many people who are Bayern fans, bar bavarians who are die hard Bayern fans. Worldwide, it’s always and primarily Real and Barça then Man U, Juve, Milan and even merda, also Liverpool in recent years. With that being said, I wish we had Bayern’s success and stature in Europe, I would trade all of our individuals trophies throughout history for an extra couple of CL titles lol.


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I'm yet to meet any Milan or Inter fans here in Denmark, I'm not saying they don't excist because they obviously do. But I haven't come across any, I came across a few Juventus fans here and there (one of my best friends is a Juve fan), I met a decent amount of Bayern fans but those who are in the biggest numbers here are Barcelona and United/Liverpool fans.

After Barca it's certainly United or Liverpool that people follow, English teams are very popular in Scandinavia. I never claimed Bayern is the most supported club in the world because it's quite clear United, Barca, Liverpool and Real are infront of the others, especially United should have the biggest following the in the world.

I have no doubt Milan was very popular back in the day, but that's quite some years ago, more than a decade in fact - and for every year where you're irrelevant you're losing fans/appeal. Inter? Really? A team that only pops up once between various decades are simply not more popular than a club that have had succes for so many years like Bayern, there's no way around it.

It seems all this about following depends on where you live because in Scandinavia are Italian teams not very popular, here it's the two Spanish giants along with a little handfull of English clubs that gets by far the most attention by the average fan.

What also helps Spanish and English teams is that they're worldwide languages, German and Italian are pretty much only spoken in Europe.

 

[RoiLezard]

I'm yet to meet any Milan or Inter fans here in Denmark, I'm not saying they don't excist because they obviously do. But I haven't come across any, I came across a few Juventus fans here and there (one of my best friends is a Juve fan), I met a decent amount of Bayern fans but those who are in the biggest numbers here are Barcelona and United/Liverpool fans.

After Barca it's certainly United or Liverpool that people follow, English teams are very popular in Scandinavia. I never claimed Bayern is the most supported club in the world because it's quite clear United, Barca, Liverpool and Real are infront of the others, especially United should have the biggest following the in the world.

I have no doubt Milan was very popular back in the day, but that's quite some years ago, more than a decade in fact - and for every year where you're irrelevant you're losing fans/appeal. Inter? Really? A team that only pops up once between various decades are simply not more popular than a club that have had succes for so many years like Bayern, there's no way around it.

It seems all this about following depends on where you live because in Scandinavia are Italian teams not very popular, here it's the two Spanish giants along with a little handfull of English clubs that gets by far the most attention by the average fan.

What also helps Spanish and English teams is that they're worldwide languages, German and Italian are pretty much only spoken in Europe.

Yeah it really depends on where you live; I’ve never been to any Scandinavian country before so I wouldn’t even be able to give a personal opinion. Here in North America, soccer is not the number 1 sport but it’s trending more thanks to different immigrant communities. As disgusting as they are, I hate to admit that I’ve come across so many inter fans in my area and when I spent some time in Europe.


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[Xperd]

And what you said provoked me as well because some of it was quite rubbish and I think you know it yourself since you didn't adress any of the points I made.

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I simply don't see what you say because Bayern is a very popular club worldwide, even given the Bundesliga is not that popular like PL or La Liga. But there's a reason Bayern got the highest membership of all football clubs in the world, you wouldn't have that if your brand is not top notch.

Yes the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, United and maybe Liverpool got more fans worldwide but that's also about it.

You're proving my point. Bayern's reach in Germany or even in neighboring European countries is undeniable but worldwide, it's not the same thing.
As I said, Bundesliga isn't popular among the casuals and there is no sustained domestic rivalry which would've made the league more interesting.
La Liga's marketing of the El Clasico established the Spanish clubs among the GOAT brands of football for more than a decade. Bayern don't have the same privilege. They won a treble in that same decade and it was quickly forgotten few months later.
And about the players. Bayern ofcourse are masters at squad building but you don't sign marketable players. You create top footballers but they don't have the same reach or attention as a top player from PL or a Real Madrid player for example.
Truth be told, Bayern garnered the most attention when Pep was managing you.
Football fans want to watch the big names and healthy competition. You don't get that with the Bundesliga. You typically pillage the best players from your league and destroy the competition.
Soon the oil clubs will surpass you in popularity. It's just how it is these days.

 

[BayernFan]

You're proving my point. Bayern's reach in Germany or even in neighboring European countries is undeniable but worldwide, it's not the same thing.
As I said, Bundesliga isn't popular among the casuals and there is no sustained domestic rivalry which would've made the league more interesting.
La Liga's marketing of the El Clasico established the Spanish clubs among the GOAT brands of football for more than a decade. Bayern don't have the same privilege. They won a treble in that same decade and it was quickly forgotten few months later.
And about the players. Bayern ofcourse are masters at squad building but you don't sign marketable players. You create top footballers but they don't have the same reach or attention as a top player from PL or a Real Madrid player for example.
Truth be told, Bayern garnered the most attention when Pep was managing you.
Football fans want to watch the big names and healthy competition. You don't get that with the Bundesliga. You typically pillage the best players from your league and destroy the competition.
Soon the oil clubs will surpass you in popularity. It's just how it is these days.

Truth be said, Bayern don't sign the likes of Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar. But then it's good football is a team sport and Bayern for a long time had one of the best teams the world. And it's not like we didn't have star players between those different eras, but the team was always the most important thing - it's similar to Liverpool under Klopp.

I don't think our treble was forgotten like you said because every season we had to listen to the media saying how it would be a failure if we didn't win the treble again, there were so much focus on exactly this.

Will the oil clubs surpass us in popularity? I don't know, maybe if we turn into Milan or Inter but I doubt that will happen. As long as we continue to do well in the CL then it won't change imo.

Some people might want to see healthy competition but at the end of the day is there only one thing that matters and that is winning. I don't think Liverpool fans wanted to wait 30 years between their latest league title just because of healthy competition.

Could the Bundesliga have benefited from a rival equal to Bayerns size and stature? No doubt, but pretty much all German teams have been outright amateurs in regards of how to successfully build up a football club based on continuity.