Paul Pogba (150 Viewers)

[Mokku]

Pogba is quality under a good manager, his time at United is a write off because the club is a mess nevertheless, he is great in a France shirt. Vidal is history and the question should be about how we improve the midfield and Pogba should be considered if available. The only problem is his price, for one Pogba you get a pair of Locatellis and perhaps LB cover. Also, we had Pogba, Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio, Tevez and still didn't win the CL so maybe we need more or need to do something differently?

 

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[zizinho]

Pogba is not a leader and never will be. Leading is not only screaming at your teammates but also leading by example. Pogba never lead anything by example apart from his Instagram.

About the things going our way:

1: The handball was never a penalty, his arm was in a natural position. Never in a million years is that a penalty.

2: Lewa wasn't blocking that much, he wasn't trying to obstruct Buffon at any time. You can argue it should be disallowed but it wasn't and most of these sort of goals stands. Lewa is with a distance of two meters to Buffon, not next to him. You can argue for it being the wrong call but it's not a clear cut situation.

3: The one on Bonucci could be a foul, agreed. But it's not like you couldn't prevent Robben from cutting inside as he didn't score just a second after. It took close to 15 seconds so you had plenty of time to sort it out. You can also argue Bonucci is the one backing into the run of Lewa as he takes a step into him running towards him. So Bonucci is actually the one trying to obstruct Lewa but fails. Notice how Pogba jogs back literally not giving a shit

Spoiler: Game

4: Yes that was an obvious mistake, that goal should never have been disallowed. But all the others are 50/50 calls and there's no clear mistake in them.

The others I don't know and as you can't remember them they're probably not even notable or noteworthy.

Anyway I don't hate or dislike Pogba. I just don't rate him like a prime Vidal as he never showed to have a package as complete as the Chilean. Pogba probably has better skills and maybe vision but Vidal is certainly not poor at giving a good long or through ball. He just stands out for so much more.

Pogba needs a hardworking midfielder besides him else he's lost or even worse his team is having a hard time to control the game. Thank fuck he got Kante to do all the work for him.

Just saying he's not a leader doesn't disprove it. Again, we lost half our leaders in 2015 and the team remained in winning mode. They should have been CL quarterfinalists atleast, if not more, while winning everything domestically in dominant fashion.

Natural position my ass. The cross was going towards goal and hit an arm that was separate from the body, away from Vidal's motion. Penalty

He was directly infront of Buffon, you can't interprete it your way and say he wasn't blocking "that much" lol. Rules say it's offside.

It's still a call that influence the play. Bonucci was a CB, last man of defense, and he was fouled out of position, leaving numbers behind. With var, that's not a goal.

So you admit atleast that one. I wish I had time to find the other 2 as well, can't remember them exactly. But anyway, even if it's 50-50 as you say, even if all the game deciding 50-50 calls should go Bayerns way, that offside goal makes it still 5-4. It's not like this was a clear win by Bayern, they scored a last minute equalizer that game. So even if you take away all those things as you say, one 100% wrong call is enough to change the outcome.

I never disagreed, but prime Vidal is 2013 and 2014 Vidal. And like I said already, he was better. After that, saying Vidal is 2 levels above a elite player like Pogba, or even a Radja who is carrying a Roma team to a CL semifinal, it's just blind fanboyism/hate for another player. Pogba was better in 14-15 already, 15-16 as well. His "hardworking" mid that year was Khedira. So he doesn't need any mid with specific characteristics, he just needs to be played in his preferred position and given freedom. He's not been given that in ManU, and has done great for them as a deep mid as well, because that's what they need of him

 

[JCK]

Maybe it's got to do with how many of his games we have each watched. The way you can relate to it would be del piero, to juve fans he's a genius and a great talent, to the ones who have only seen him in Italy and a few games with us, he'd seem underwhelming.

That's still fanboyism though. What I am trying to tell you is that it is not strange for people who are fans of Pogba to want him here where at the same time you find it strange and appalling.

 

[BayernFan]

Just saying he's not a leader doesn't disprove it. Again, we lost half our leaders in 2015 and the team remained in winning mode. They should have been CL quarterfinalists atleast, if not more, while winning everything domestically in dominant fashion.

Natural position my ass. The cross was going towards goal and hit an arm that was separate from the body, away from Vidal's motion. Penalty

He was directly infront of Buffon, you can't interprete it your way and say he wasn't blocking "that much" lol. Rules say it's offside.

It's still a call that influence the play. Bonucci was a CB, last man of defense, and he was fouled out of position, leaving numbers behind. With var, that's not a goal.

So you admit atleast that one. I wish I had time to find the other 2 as well, can't remember them exactly. But anyway, even if it's 50-50 as you say, even if all the game deciding 50-50 calls should go Bayerns way, that offside goal makes it still 5-4. It's not like this was a clear win by Bayern, they scored a last minute equalizer that game. So even if you take away all those things as you say, one 100% wrong call is enough to change the outcome.

I never disagreed, but prime Vidal is 2013 and 2014 Vidal. And like I said already, he was better. After that, saying Vidal is 2 levels above a elite player like Pogba, or even a Radja who is carrying a Roma team to a CL semifinal, it's just blind fanboyism/hate for another player. Pogba was better in 14-15 already, 15-16 as well. His "hardworking" mid that year was Khedira. So he doesn't need any mid with specific characteristics, he just needs to be played in his preferred position and given freedom. He's not been given that in ManU, and has done great for them as a deep mid as well, because that's what they need of him

Just as you saying he's a leader doesn't prove he is you know. Pogba are many things, but a leader is certainly not one of them imo.

That's a totally natural position for your arm, what else do you want him to do? Pogba shoots the ball on to his arm from a distance of a few meters, that's not a penalty in a million years and also wouldn't be given with VAR if the ref got a brain. There's a reason they changed the handball rules as well to avoid these sort of incidents being given.

Lewa wasn't blocking anything noteworthy, notice how Buffon or no other Juve player is complaining about it, maybe because it's not something noteworthy? It's not like Lewa decides to take a step or two back and prevent Buffon from moving freely, he is not even blocking the view for Buffon to see Müller getting the ball, far from in fact.

Bonucci being last man of defence doesn't say shit, he decided to step into Lewa who started running, can't be Lewa's fault he gets pushed away so easily when it was himself that wanted to block Lewa.

Yes the offside call was a big mistake but it was the only one where you can say it was outrageous, the others wasn't even close to be outrageous for numerous reasons I already listed. Had it been given it could've been a gamechanger and the ref fucked up there. But talking about the others is closer to sour grapes as you can even argue if the calls are wrong or not.

There's nothing more to add to that really, so you should move on

I have no opinion or interest for the Radja Mongolan vs Pogba debate. There's no doubt Pogba can be a useful player and is a great player on his day. I remember I wanted him at Bayern back in 2015, but I'm glad we went for Vidal instead. I don't think Pogba’s work ethic would've been a success in Bayern where you need players with 110% dedication. I might be wrong but he doesn't hit me as a player willing to put in an extra effort, be it in training or in a match.

 

[Post Ironic]

“Done great for Man United…” and talks about blind fanboyism. I’ve heard it all now.

 

[zizinho]

Just as you saying he's a leader doesn't prove he is you know. Pogba are many things, but a leader is certainly not one of them imo.

That's a totally natural position for your arm, what else do you want him to do? Pogba shoots the ball on to his arm from a distance of a few meters, that's not a penalty in a million years and also wouldn't be given with VAR if the ref got a brain. There's a reason they changed the handball rules as well to avoid these sort of incidents being given.

Lewa wasn't blocking anything noteworthy, notice how Buffon or no other Juve player is complaining about it, maybe because it's not something noteworthy?

Bonucci being last man of defence doesn't say shit, he decided to step into Lewa who started running, can't be Lewa's fault he gets pushed away so easily when it was himself that wanted to block Lewa.

Yes the offside call was a big mistake but it was the only one where you can say it was outrageous, the others wasn't even close to be outrageous for numerous reasons I already listed. Had it been given it could've been a gamechanger and the ref fucked up there. But talking about the others is closer to sour grapes as you can even argue if the calls are wrong or not.

There's nothing more to add to that really, so you should move on

I have no opinion on the Radja Mongolan vs Pogba vs Vidal debate. There's no doubt Pogba can be a useful player and is a great player on his day. I remember I wanted him at Bayern back in 2015, but I'm glad we went for Vidal instead. I don't think Vidal's work ethic would've been a success in Bayern where you need players with 110% dedication. I might be wrong but he doesn't hit me as a player willing to put in an extra effort, be it in training or in a match.

I just gave you an example of how he is a leader, don't know what else to say, if you don't want to acknowledge it...

Dude, do you know what natural position means? Vidal was moving in the direction of Pogba and his arm was stretched out, away from his motion. Million penalties like that have been called.

He was infront of the keeper when the shot was placed and before that as well. That's offside. I don't know about complain, but maybe they didn't notice. Not for every situation players complain, they were focused on Muller.

He put down a man away from the ball. Bonucci started to run back and Lewa pushed him to the ground. But yeah, Bonucci stepped into Lewa, so Lewa just kept running like nothing happened.

The others were outrageous too, the penalty call atleast was a obvious one. I just said "let's say those are 50-50" to go with your narrative, even in which we are hurt. "Only one" when it was a obvious goal and the tie ended 4-4 after regulation is like you're saying it's no big deal. If something similar happened to Bayern, you'd be calling it out (example, some of the Real games). But like this, it's no big deal...

I said what I had to say about that 5 years ago, it's pointless to argue anymore. it was just in the flow of the argument, to show you how good the team still remained after losing Tevez, Vidal, Pirlo...

Pogba was a success at arguably a even stricter club in Juve, under two coaches like Conte and Allegri, as a 19-23 year old. Nothing suggests he wouldn't be great if he moved to Bayern. Preferring Vidal is ok, he was class in his day, but if you had to pick one in 2014 or 2015, I'd say it's obvious who it would be. One would be in his prime right now, the other semi retired. If you got Vidal in 2011, you'd probably have another CL right now, and it would have been an amazing signing. 2015, he was still a great addition, but he wasn't moving the needle for Bayern, like a Martinez did when he joined, or Mandzu, or Robben... He was just another great player, not a iconic one

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“Done great for Man United…” and talks about blind fanboyism. I’ve heard it all now.

You're pushing your luck little man

 

[BayernFan]

I just gave you an example of how he is a leader, don't know what else to say, if you don't want to acknowledge it...

Dude, do you know what natural position means? Vidal was moving in the direction of Pogba and his arm was stretched out, away from his motion. Million penalties like that have been called.

He was infront of the keeper when the shot was placed and before that as well. That's offside. I don't know about complain, but maybe they didn't notice. Not for every situation players complain, they were focused on Muller.

He put down a man away from the ball. Bonucci started to run back and Lewa pushed him to the ground. But yeah, Bonucci stepped into Lewa, so Lewa just kept running like nothing happened.

The others were outrageous too, the penalty call atleast was a obvious one. I just said "let's say those are 50-50" to go with your narrative, even in which we are hurt. "Only one" when it was a obvious goal and the tie ended 4-4 after regulation is like you're saying it's no big deal. If something similar happened to Bayern, you'd be calling it out (example, some of the Real games). But like this, it's no big deal...

I said what I had to say about that 5 years ago, it's pointless to argue anymore. it was just in the flow of the argument, to show you how good the team still remained after losing Tevez, Vidal, Pirlo...

Pogba was a success at arguably a even stricter club in Juve, under two coaches like Conte and Allegri, as a 19-23 year old. Nothing suggests he wouldn't be great if he moved to Bayern. Preferring Vidal is ok, he was class in his day, but if you had to pick one in 2014 or 2015, I'd say it's obvious who it would be. One would be in his prime right now, the other semi retired. If you got Vidal in 2011, you'd probably have another CL right now, and it would have been an amazing signing. 2015, he was still a great addition, but he wasn't moving the needle for Bayern, like a Martinez did when he joined, or Mandzu, or Robben... He was just another great player, not a iconic one

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You're pushing your luck little man

1: Just because a million penalties has been given like that it doesn't mean it's the right decision all the time. You can argue for it being a penalty but you can certainly also argue for it not being.

2: If it was so big a deal with the offside then why wasn't there any big complaints afterwards from many sides? Maybe because it wasn't so outrageous as you want to make it sound. A 50/50 situation.

3: It's again a 50/50 situation. Bonucci is the one deciding to step into a Lewa in full motion, not the other way around. It's not like a player should just stop his movement because someone steps infront of him, actually then it's the guy stepping infront of the other who makes the faul meaning it's on Bonucci in this case. And if he wanted to foul Lewa then he could just have done so to prevent a counter.

4: I was pissed with the Real game back then but it's long gone really. We had decisions in those games going our way too, Ribery shooting the ball on to Carvajal wasn't a penalty, it hit his chest/shoulder and not arm. Clear mistake from the ref.

What pissed me off wasn't that much the wrong offside goals in Madrid as these can happen. It was more the fact that the ref wasn't consistent in what he was doing in terms of yellow cards/fouls.

I remember he was about to give Casemiro his second yellow and then for some weird reason decided not to. Then a few moments later he gave Vidal his second yellow for a tackle that was clean on the ball.

To be fair could Vidal have gotten his second yellow before that where he made a foul that could a yellow, but the problem is Casemiro was commiting the same amount of fouls and got away with it.

Real were the better team over the two legs and deserved to go through, especially because of the match in Munich where Bayern was shit.

I wasay more pissed in 2018 where we dominated them massively from start to end, it was powerplay towards their goal in terms of us having the ball and all the chances we created. But poor finishing combined with Ulreich and Rafinha brainfarts meant it wasn't meant to be.

Anyway lets move on as this game took place 5½ half years ago, no need to debate it anymore. Juve deserved to go through if it wasn't for that disallowd goal mistake.

 

[zizinho]

1: Just because a million penalties has been given like that it doesn't mean it's the right decision all the time. You can argue for it being a penalty but you can certainly also argue for it not being.

2: If it was so big a deal with the offside then why wasn't there any big complaints afterwards from many sides? Maybe because it wasn't so outrageous as you want to make it sound. A 50/50 situation.

3: It's again a 50/50 situation. Bonucci is the one deciding to step into a Lewa in full motion, not the other way around. It's not like a player should just stop his movement because someone steps infront of him, actually then it's the guy stepping infront of the other who makes the faul meaning it's on Bonucci in this case. And if he wanted to foul Lewa then he could just have done so to prevent a counter.

4: I was pissed with the Real game back then but it's long gone really. We had decisions in those games going our way too, Ribery shooting the ball on to Carvajal wasn't a penalty, it hit his chest/shoulder and not arm. Clear mistake from the ref.

What pissed me off wasn't that much the wrong offside goals in Madrid as these can happen. It was more the fact that the ref wasn't consistent in what he was doing in terms of yellow cards/fouls.

I remember he was about to give Casemiro his second yellow and then for some weird reason decided not to. Then a few moments later he gave Vidal his second yellow for a tackle that was clean on the ball.

To be fair could Vidal have gotten his second yellow before that where he made a foul that could a yellow, but the problem is Casemiro was commiting the same amount of fouls and got away with it.

Real were the better team over the two legs and deserved to go through, especially because of the match in Munich where Bayern was shit.

I wasay more pissed in 2018 where we dominated them massively from start to end, it was powerplay towards their goal in terms of us having the ball and all the chances we created. But poor finishing combined with Ulreich and Rafinha brainfarts meant it wasn't meant to be.

Anyway lets move on as this game took place 5½ half years ago, no need to debate it anymore. Juve deserved to go through if it wasn't for that disallowd goal mistake.

You just can't argue. I mean you can, but it's stupid. Because that's a penalty bro

When do teams complain after games? Rarely happens. It doesn't make it a 50/50 call

If Bonucci stepped into Lewa, how does Lewa run him over so casually?

You were pissed then, you're calm now, that doesn't change what those situations were and how they were called. You still acknowledge them, you aren't here claiming they were 50/50 calls. Not gonna talk about Real Bayern ties and ref mistakes now too lol

Thanks. And that is the point of that, not that we were robbed, but that the team remained great despite major losses in the squad. And Pogba is one of the main reasons for that

 

[BayernFan]

You just can't argue. I mean you can, but it's stupid. Because that's a penalty bro

When do teams complain after games? Rarely happens. It doesn't make it a 50/50 call

If Bonucci stepped into Lewa, how does Lewa run him over so casually?

You were pissed then, you're calm now, that doesn't change what those situations were and how they were called. You still acknowledge them, you aren't here claiming they were 50/50 calls. Not gonna talk about Real Bayern ties and ref mistakes now too lol

Thanks. And that is the point of that, not that we were robbed, but that the team remained great despite major losses in the squad. And Pogba is one of the main reasons for that

1: Happens all the time teams/players complain after a game. Nothing new.

2: Probably because he failed to block Lewa and was made a fool of physically or maybe he wasn't aware Lewa was coming in full speed just behind him, I don't know.

3: Some of those offsides are way harder to get right than a foul on the pitch. That's why I'm not so pissed on the ref for the last Ronaldo goal in the second leg as he was only slightly infront of Marcelo as I remember it. The second goal was a much bigger blunder from the ref, but I guess he got confused seeing Costa down the line.

These offsides happened back then and it was irritating as hell when it went against you. But to me is it worse when a ref got no control of the game on the pitch.

Like said, lets move on.

 

[DAiDEViL]

“Done great for Man United…” and talks about blind fanboyism. I’ve heard it all now.

 

[Post Ironic]

“you’re pushing your luck little man” lol

 

[zizinho]

People that dont want to argue i dont take serious. I can laugh with them and mock each other, no biggie. If you want to argue seriosly like @BayernFan you can, but ofcourse you two would be dismantled so dont even try

 

[ALC]

People that dont want to argue i dont take serious. I can laugh with them and mock each other, no biggie. If you want to argue seriosly like @BayernFan you can, but ofcourse you two would be dismantled so dont even try

trying to argue with you is like talking to a brick wall

 

[zizinho]

trying to argue with you is like talking to a brick wall

Not my fault your arguments are trash

 

[Juventinoo]

@zizinho

you make yourself tired arguing with carpenters

All in all , Pogba currently is full of problems ... salary wise ... personality .... inconsistency.... and age wise he is at the wrong side of the curve

If he will come here the operation cost is very expensive including Riola commission....and he may be or maybe not return to Pogba Juve levels ....

He lead us after Pirlo and Vidal left ...and his talent should not be a question for anyone

But he ruined his career already and it is risky taking him back for a salary of 18m a year doing nothing !!

some tuzzers shit in your post based on current Pogba ....

i still believes talent is permanent and form is temporary.... and i still believes that his return will discover his old shit ....

But nothing guarantees that and this will be costly for us and could ruin our financials

so pass on Pogba , lets find the new one

 

[zizinho]

@zizinho

you make yourself tired arguing with carpenters

All in all , Pogba currently is full of problems ... salary wise ... personality .... inconsistency.... and age wise he is at the wrong side of the curve

If he will come here the operation cost is very expensive including Riola commission....and he may be or maybe not return to Pogba Juve levels ....

He lead us after Pirlo and Vidal left ...and his talent should not be a question for anyone

But he ruined his career already and it is risky taking him back for a salary of 18m a year doing nothing !!

some tuzzers shit in your post based on current Pogba ....

i still believes talent is permanent and form is temporary.... and i still believes that his return will discover his old shit ....

But nothing guarantees that and this will be costly for us and could ruin our financials

Now he'd be too expensive, I'd rather we focus on Sergej who's younger and ready for the next step (for a few years now already). But next summer if he doesn't extend, he will be a opportunity as a freebie. Let's see how it goes

 

[Hist]

I cant believe you think Pogba is a leader. He is almost the opposite of that. Mou (who is not the most positive person) called him poisonous to the dressing room.

Bruno is a leader. You see how he improves everyone around him. Same group same team same coach. Bruno enters and lifts the entire team's performance level. Pogba goes injured for a season they never really miss him.

Pogba had a good game and he sometimes has these even in a Utd shirt. Much easier for him in France when there are so many world class players (especially Kante) and leaders around him.

 

[JuveE46]

I cant believe you think Pogba is a leader. He is almost the opposite of that. Mou (who is not the most positive person) called him poisonous to the dressing room.

Bruno is a leader. You see how he improves everyone around him. Same group same team same coach. Bruno enters and lifts the entire team's performance level. Pogba goes injured for a season they never really miss him.

Pogba had a good game and he sometimes has these even in a Utd shirt. Much easier for him in France when there are so many world class players (especially Kante) and leaders around him.

It's all Pogba dogma otherwise it's clear. Vidal and March were plugging the holes he left when he was out of position. Marchisio was such a smooth operator and not as physical as Vidal but in truth pogba had two very aware bodyguards covering and giving him assurance like Kante/NT.
Too incomplete for the pricetag.

 

[zizinho]

I cant believe you think Pogba is a leader. He is almost the opposite of that. Mou (who is not the most positive person) called him poisonous to the dressing room.

Bruno is a leader. You see how he improves everyone around him. Same group same team same coach. Bruno enters and lifts the entire team's performance level. Pogba goes injured for a season they never really miss him.

Pogba had a good game and he sometimes has these even in a Utd shirt. Much easier for him in France when there are so many world class players (especially Kante) and leaders around him.

Source for Mou calling him that?

This is not the same team lol. Cavani, Telles, VDB, Maguire, Wanbissaka, this is half their starting lineup along with Bruno that arrived last 2 summers. Plus kids like Rashford and Greenwood that grew and improved. Or was that because of BF? Bruno played every game 90 minutes in this seasons CL group stage. Pogba got subbed in 4 times and started once. Result? They lost 3 games in which Pogba played a combined 74 minutes, combined result with him on the pitch 2-1 ManU, with him on the bench 2-7. Only one of those games vs Paris, the other two vs Leipzig and Istanbul BB. They went out in group stage as favorites. In the Premier league they win like 1,9 pts when hes on the pitch, and 1,7 when hes not. Laat season since Bruno arrived, they win 1,57 with Pogba off the pitch vs 2,77 with him on the pitch, on a smaller sample size though compared to this season. Even if you include Pogbas pre-Bruno minutes, its still in his favor.

If you say Bruno improved the team: 16/17 69pts plus 2 trophies, 17/18 81pts, passed GS, 18/19 66pts, passed GS, 19/20 66pts EL, 20/21 74 pts, out in GS. These are all seasons since Pogba arrived. So where is the improvement that Brunos leadership brought?

Pogba has more freedom in his game for France, he doesnt have as many defensive duties as in Manu, which is why you have the perception hes better. Its not because he has more WC players around him, that is something the team benefits from, its simply the role. In Manu he plays a more defensive role, further from the goal and less freedom to roam, and since you fall for the usual stat sheets and dont watch them play, you think hes not as good, when in reality he has other tactical responsibilites.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Look at this intellectual discourse

To be fair though, OBJ is probably a bit "touched."