walking across the pitch is even more infuriating
just ask people who follow riquemle
just ask people who follow riquemle
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Paul Pogba (101 Viewers)
- Thread starter Lo-Pan
- Start date
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This is what I'm saying. In the top, top of European matches you can't have someone like that in front of your defence. Your CBs are completely exposed.
Look at that first goal closely. Di Maria dribbles past Pirlo and then what? Chiellini HAS TO STEP UP. Then what happens next? Ronaldo ends up exactly in the area Chiellini just vacated.
Look at that first goal closely. Di Maria dribbles past Pirlo and then what? Chiellini HAS TO STEP UP. Then what happens next? Ronaldo ends up exactly in the area Chiellini just vacated.
Pirlo is magnificent when of form. When he gives the ball away, it is ALWAYS a disaster waiting to happen, and we have witnessed that first hand on numerous occasions this season, particularly in the CL. He is most definitely a defensive liability; stats don't always tell the whole story. That is a simplistic approach adopted by guys infatuated with stats like Rus for example.
I wasn't calling it black and white, I don't read everything here thoroughly but I've noticed that Pirlo is a recurring topic in your posts where you single him out. Weren't you the one getting on him for not running back enough to get on the TV screen for the Bale goal? That's just an example of unnecessary criticism, and on top of that you were wrong. Another in this thread regarding the short horizontal passes, when Pirlo is apparently harming Juve by being the source of attention for possession. He doesn't even suffocate the way Pogba and Vidal play, they're both performing great beside him making 5 yard passes.
Even when Pirlo could have been considered to be experiencing a dip in form earlier on in the season, I would have considered him untouchable in the starting XI purely because there is no replacement for his ability to see and create chances in Juve. I'd be disappointed if Juve fans hadn't noticed what Pirlo's range of passing and vision is like after seeing the last two games, where Pogba has made barely any notable contributions to attacks. Even watching the chaos of the Udinese game was enough for me, luckily Llorente creates chances with his frame and he totally made the difference in that game. Vidal was also clumsy when he tried to open up their defense in Pirlo's absence, I can't agree he's not automatic into the lineup.
Juve's speed of build up wasn't an issue against Real Madrid over two legs, and they're one of the fastest teams in Europe. Pirlo was one of the best players on the pitch in that second leg, and was taking charge of the game to suit him. Similarly, the 1-1 vs Spain in 2012. If Juve weren't prepared to take the physical battle, I'd start to get worried, but that's why he's in the company of workhorses. And it's similar to the systems he's been used successfully in for his entire career.
In terms of impressive, his last two were excellent. In the Madrid game before he was substituted he messed around a bit much, but I don't actually have any other complaints about him in this years edition of the competition. I don't think unimpressive is something I'd associate with last year's group stage games either, he was good. Thinking back, I'd give it to you that I've seen Pirlo at his worst in a Champions League game, against Bayern in Munich. That might have been the first time I saw him play passes to nobody in particular at Juve, a load of high balls without purpose. Bayern totally dominated Juve, and I'm certain that wasn't a result of using a regista. Otherwise, I don't have any other bad games from him in the competition. Anonymous at times, but Juve should be able to capitalise on space created when teams man mark Pirlo. And that is why I'd think Juve could do with another creative player.
Defensively you get a weakness with Pirlo, but this is a truth of his career, it isn't brand new to the Juve portion of it. I could go back and find examples of where he was exposed for Milan (look up the Deportivo comeback) and he has two Champions League winners medals and a runners up medal with them. The idea of putting workhorses in a team with creative talent is fairly common, Juve clearly looked a lot more balanced when faced against an established elite Champions League team this season. It's not perfect yet, but I see the progress which Conte needed in that aspect. I understood his substitution in Spain.
Calling Pirlo slow is like calling Odonkor fast. You're simplifying his style yet again, when football has been dominated by players that are quick thinkers for at least 16 years (since I started following). Look at the state of the English national side to see how valuable intelligence is in the game. Age hasn't done anything to Pirlo because he still covered more distance than any other Juve player in last year's Champions League and he's playing the most out of anyone for club and country (60+ games). Pirlo played in a highly aggressive and quick Juve when teams were a lot more open in 2011, and he was Juve's best player in that season. Pirlo's pace has had barely anything to do with his playmaking ability, and he's found a way round that for too long to dispute.
If I had to decide (I've already touched upon this), I'd say that another creative player would be helpful to this Juve side becoming a regular semi finalist in the CL, allowing Conte to put in a winger with similar characteristics to Di Maria to open up more possibilities across the team for chance creation. I'd agree that I don't like depending on Pirlo though, which is probably why I've wanted more from Tevez in Europe.
Even when Pirlo could have been considered to be experiencing a dip in form earlier on in the season, I would have considered him untouchable in the starting XI purely because there is no replacement for his ability to see and create chances in Juve. I'd be disappointed if Juve fans hadn't noticed what Pirlo's range of passing and vision is like after seeing the last two games, where Pogba has made barely any notable contributions to attacks. Even watching the chaos of the Udinese game was enough for me, luckily Llorente creates chances with his frame and he totally made the difference in that game. Vidal was also clumsy when he tried to open up their defense in Pirlo's absence, I can't agree he's not automatic into the lineup.
Juve's speed of build up wasn't an issue against Real Madrid over two legs, and they're one of the fastest teams in Europe. Pirlo was one of the best players on the pitch in that second leg, and was taking charge of the game to suit him. Similarly, the 1-1 vs Spain in 2012. If Juve weren't prepared to take the physical battle, I'd start to get worried, but that's why he's in the company of workhorses. And it's similar to the systems he's been used successfully in for his entire career.
In terms of impressive, his last two were excellent. In the Madrid game before he was substituted he messed around a bit much, but I don't actually have any other complaints about him in this years edition of the competition. I don't think unimpressive is something I'd associate with last year's group stage games either, he was good. Thinking back, I'd give it to you that I've seen Pirlo at his worst in a Champions League game, against Bayern in Munich. That might have been the first time I saw him play passes to nobody in particular at Juve, a load of high balls without purpose. Bayern totally dominated Juve, and I'm certain that wasn't a result of using a regista. Otherwise, I don't have any other bad games from him in the competition. Anonymous at times, but Juve should be able to capitalise on space created when teams man mark Pirlo. And that is why I'd think Juve could do with another creative player.
Defensively you get a weakness with Pirlo, but this is a truth of his career, it isn't brand new to the Juve portion of it. I could go back and find examples of where he was exposed for Milan (look up the Deportivo comeback) and he has two Champions League winners medals and a runners up medal with them. The idea of putting workhorses in a team with creative talent is fairly common, Juve clearly looked a lot more balanced when faced against an established elite Champions League team this season. It's not perfect yet, but I see the progress which Conte needed in that aspect. I understood his substitution in Spain.
Calling Pirlo slow is like calling Odonkor fast. You're simplifying his style yet again, when football has been dominated by players that are quick thinkers for at least 16 years (since I started following). Look at the state of the English national side to see how valuable intelligence is in the game. Age hasn't done anything to Pirlo because he still covered more distance than any other Juve player in last year's Champions League and he's playing the most out of anyone for club and country (60+ games). Pirlo played in a highly aggressive and quick Juve when teams were a lot more open in 2011, and he was Juve's best player in that season. Pirlo's pace has had barely anything to do with his playmaking ability, and he's found a way round that for too long to dispute.
If I had to decide (I've already touched upon this), I'd say that another creative player would be helpful to this Juve side becoming a regular semi finalist in the CL, allowing Conte to put in a winger with similar characteristics to Di Maria to open up more possibilities across the team for chance creation. I'd agree that I don't like depending on Pirlo though, which is probably why I've wanted more from Tevez in Europe.
1) How many teams play with a regista ? How many good regista's are there ? Juventus is using one, cause they have one and build a team to accomodate him.
- Madrid technically has one, but they have 0 good central midfielders. So they just place offensive talent around him, and a talentless overrated fool like khedira next to him.
- Dortmund has the "modern" regista in gundogan who is less talented as pirlo, but 4x faster yes. But dortmund allready had excellent wings before Gundo and gotze popped. So he got integrated
Then, there was 2007 Milan. You say "pirlo was younger and they had Kaka". That sir, is an excellent remark. Where madrid and dortmund have wingers, milan didnt have them. However, they had gattuso, seedorf, pirlo ambrosini and kaka. So they got a xmas shape to accomodate all those players.
They proved, you dont need wingers, but you need excellent central midfielders instead.
2) Italy flooded the midfield and controlled the close space with a 3-5-2 shape in the first game. Spain couldnt get into gear.
In the final game, italy team was deadtired cause of the significantly harder and longer games -1 recovery day, had injuries, and prandelli, decided to drop the 3-5-2 and went 4-4-2 instead and had it destroyed.
3) Pirlo is not a defensive pillar. He doesnt need to be in a 3-5-2 or 4-1-3-1-1. What he needs to do is position himself in such way that the central creative players of the opponent arent reachable via a simple ground pass, forcing the attacker to try something hard, or cut back, allowing the team to get into shape. Pirlo's off the ball movement is quite excellent tbh, both offensively and defensively. He doesnt have marchisio's physique offcourse and doesnt cover closeby when needed, but in mentionned formations its not needed.
as for the goal : Pirlo's positionning at mentionned video is actually good, he should stay there in case someone comes central.
De rossi, not beeing a natural defender, looks in his back to check if someone comes running in, what a midfielder should do, instead of focussing on the player.
4) The reason we succeed, is quite simple the players we have. Our most priced possessions, are Vidal and Pogba, the world's best CM and the clearly best player under 21. They are aggressive pressing cm's that make offensive runs. They synergise excellently with Pirlo, cause they'll do the pressing and he can just cover them.
==================================================================================================================
My last point, is about my own tactical preference.
ultimately, i adore 3 formations. 4-2-3-1; 4-3-1-2 ; 3-3-2-1-1 (352 variant)
Only one of those formations allows for a regista, wich is the last one (3D, regista+2WB, 2CM, 1SS/CAM, 1P). Juventus sort off has the players for it.
Sort off, not ideal.
You see i'm not the biggest fan of using a regista. I'm the forums biggest fan of the trequartista. EVERY formation i'll ever put up, or use in a game, will be with a trequartista.
I like Regista's, but they need to be covered adequately.
But the real deal is, if pirlo goes, who will bring the creativity ? This is why we need him. We dont have the money to go ahead and make big transfers of creative players. Sure i have some idea's if we got varying degrees of cash, but right now, its best to stay low, and watch how the market goes
==================================================================================================================
As a conclusion, i'll present you my formation, in case juventus magically had 100 million to spend
- Madrid technically has one, but they have 0 good central midfielders. So they just place offensive talent around him, and a talentless overrated fool like khedira next to him.
- Dortmund has the "modern" regista in gundogan who is less talented as pirlo, but 4x faster yes. But dortmund allready had excellent wings before Gundo and gotze popped. So he got integrated
Then, there was 2007 Milan. You say "pirlo was younger and they had Kaka". That sir, is an excellent remark. Where madrid and dortmund have wingers, milan didnt have them. However, they had gattuso, seedorf, pirlo ambrosini and kaka. So they got a xmas shape to accomodate all those players.
They proved, you dont need wingers, but you need excellent central midfielders instead.
2) Italy flooded the midfield and controlled the close space with a 3-5-2 shape in the first game. Spain couldnt get into gear.
In the final game, italy team was deadtired cause of the significantly harder and longer games -1 recovery day, had injuries, and prandelli, decided to drop the 3-5-2 and went 4-4-2 instead and had it destroyed.
3) Pirlo is not a defensive pillar. He doesnt need to be in a 3-5-2 or 4-1-3-1-1. What he needs to do is position himself in such way that the central creative players of the opponent arent reachable via a simple ground pass, forcing the attacker to try something hard, or cut back, allowing the team to get into shape. Pirlo's off the ball movement is quite excellent tbh, both offensively and defensively. He doesnt have marchisio's physique offcourse and doesnt cover closeby when needed, but in mentionned formations its not needed.
as for the goal : Pirlo's positionning at mentionned video is actually good, he should stay there in case someone comes central.
De rossi, not beeing a natural defender, looks in his back to check if someone comes running in, what a midfielder should do, instead of focussing on the player.
4) The reason we succeed, is quite simple the players we have. Our most priced possessions, are Vidal and Pogba, the world's best CM and the clearly best player under 21. They are aggressive pressing cm's that make offensive runs. They synergise excellently with Pirlo, cause they'll do the pressing and he can just cover them.
==================================================================================================================
My last point, is about my own tactical preference.
ultimately, i adore 3 formations. 4-2-3-1; 4-3-1-2 ; 3-3-2-1-1 (352 variant)
Only one of those formations allows for a regista, wich is the last one (3D, regista+2WB, 2CM, 1SS/CAM, 1P). Juventus sort off has the players for it.
Sort off, not ideal.
You see i'm not the biggest fan of using a regista. I'm the forums biggest fan of the trequartista. EVERY formation i'll ever put up, or use in a game, will be with a trequartista.
I like Regista's, but they need to be covered adequately.
But the real deal is, if pirlo goes, who will bring the creativity ? This is why we need him. We dont have the money to go ahead and make big transfers of creative players. Sure i have some idea's if we got varying degrees of cash, but right now, its best to stay low, and watch how the market goes
==================================================================================================================
As a conclusion, i'll present you my formation, in case juventus magically had 100 million to spend
Buffon
Lichtsteiner - Barzagli - Chiellini - Asamoah
Gundogan
Vidal-----------Pogba
Aguero
Tevez ------Llorente
Lichtsteiner - Barzagli - Chiellini - Asamoah
Gundogan
Vidal-----------Pogba
Aguero
Tevez ------Llorente
