Oh Sh*t, Here We Go (9 Viewers)

[Alen]

but what about the difference between being a berber and a barbarian?

Lol, this makes absolutely no sense

Barbarian is a Greek word with which the Greeks initially called those who didn't speak Greek.Later they called barbarians those who weren't "as civilized" as the Greeks were and it became a pejorative term.
The Berbers were simply Libyans if you asked the Greeks and sure, they were barbarian too simply because they didn't speak Greek and they didn't have the "superior" Athenian culture. But so were the Germanic tribes and you don't call the Germans barbarians (Well.... if you're not a Jew )

I don't know the origin of the name Berber. It's not a name Greeks gave to them and I don't see why would the Romans call them that way when they were already known as Mauri by the Romans. I think it's a local name and it has absolutely nothing to do with the word barbarian.

 

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[Fred]

Maghreb people are not arabs. We are berber.

That is not true. Berbers are a big percentage in Algeria and Morocco. Especially the latter, where i think they are almost 50% of the population. But the majority of Algeria and Tunisia's population are Arabs, who immigrated from the Arab peninsula in the 10th-11th century iirc, somewhere around that period anyway. In Algeria the Berbers aren't more than 35%. The rest are Arabs, no question about that at all. Most Algerians consider themselves Arabs too.

In Libya, the Berbers aren't more than 3-5%. I will admit, that they are an oppressed minority in my country, they aren't allowed to speak their language, or name their children in Berber names.

You can't tell someone how to feel. He doesn't feel Arab and if the majority of his countrymen don't feel Arab, then they aren't. If they feel Arab then they are Arab.

Genealogically, they aren't Arabs, the majority at least. Linguistically, the majority speaks Arabic, but in a country like Morocco for 30-40% of the population Berber is the main language. Culturally, they have huge French, Spanish and African influences, but that doesn't make them French, just like speaking Arabic doesn't make them Arabs by default.

For many of them the non-Arab ethnic and linguistic purity has remained. They embraced Islam willingly, they accepted the language, but that doesn't mean that by doing so they became Arabs and aren't what they feel they are, Berber.

Not true. The majority are Arabs that immigrated to the Maghreb a long time ago, most of them are from the Banu Hilal immigrants if you've heard/read about that before?

I hear Berbers originally came from the Arab peninsula, so all's good JBF!

Nobody knows where they came from actually. They've been in North Africa thousands of years BC.

Lol, this makes absolutely no sense

Barbarian is a Greek word with which the Greeks initially called those who didn't speak Greek.Later they called barbarians those who weren't "as civilized" as the Greeks were and it became a pejorative term.
The Berbers were simply Libyans if you asked the Greeks and sure, they were barbarian too simply because they didn't speak Greek and they didn't have the "superior" Athenian culture. But so were the Germanic tribes and you don't call the Germans barbarians (Well.... if you're not a Jew )

I don't know the origin of the name Berber. It's not a name Greeks gave to them and I don't see why would the Romans call them that way when they were already known as Mauri by the Romans. I think it's a local name and it has absolutely nothing to do with the word barbarian.

I am not very well versed on their history, but of course it has nothing to do with the word Barbarian. Though, i was under the impression, that it was the Romans who called them Berbers, are you sure it wasn't the Romans??

 

[Alen]

are you sure it wasn't the Romans??

I used like 1 billion "I think"s. How can you ask me if I'm sure?

If it was the Romans, then Berber does indeed mean Barbarian because the Romans did have and did use that word borrowed from the Greeks. But if they called the Berbers "barbari" then logically many more tribes should have been called "barbari" and it's a little strange if the name was preserved only for the Berbers.
And if this was really the case and the Berbers got their name from the word barbarian, then it shows some really poor pre-Roman civilization, if they didn't even have an older name that was widely in use and that wouldn't have been so easily replaced by the word "barbarian".

I wouldn't really know.

 

[TrezJuve]

That is not true. Berbers are a big percentage in Algeria and Morocco. Especially the latter, where i think they are almost 50% of the population. But the majority of Algeria and Tunisia's population are Arabs, who immigrated from the Arab peninsula in the 10th-11th century iirc, somewhere around that period anyway. In Algeria the Berbers aren't more than 35%. The rest are Arabs, no question about that at all. Most Algerians consider themselves Arabs too.

In a way you're right. But, the Arabs that stayed in Maghreb were assimilated, not really the other way (you could also say that no one was, and that they just evolve together). There was crossbreed, and calling them Arabs wouldn't be true. You could call them ''Arabophone'' (Even if the dialect isn't the same), but saying they are Arabs isn't true. They became Berbers. The so-called ''true'' Berbers are the one that speaks Amazigh, but the one that speaks ''Arab'' are too.

I made a mistake, if I did claim most Algerians consider themselves Berber. But, there is a wrong interpretation by a lot of Algerian ''Arabs'', about a lot of thing. Most people tends to believe that Islam and Arabicness are inseparable, and that is one of the reason they claim being ones or think being ones. Saying that these people are the same as middle-easterner is wrong, some of their ancestors were but not them. We are not the same at all (For the record, I don't hate the true Arabs [the ones from the peninsula] and the other who considers themselves so, just to make it clear if I did look like saying that). This is simply impossible for a colon to assimilate a nation, history showed that.

Nobody knows where they came from actually. They've been in North Africa thousands of years BC.

Yeah, it is true. Not really related with what you said, but did you know that there was even some pharaohs who were Berber?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

This is a very complicated question to answer, but I'll make it as simple as possible
originally and racially, Arabs are only the ones from the Arabian peninsula, which nowadays is Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain
but with the spread of Islam 1400 years ago Muslims -mostly but not always Arabs- spread too from China's borders to the east until Spain to the west Somalia to the south (and Comoros too) and Kazakhistan to the north
with that spread Arabic language spread too, mostly to Sham and Egypt then other places to a lesser extent

nowadays, an Arab's defintion has changed, it's for Arabic speaking countires, which is:

notice that Turkey, Israel and Iran are close to us but are not Arabs.

must mention also that in Nasser's days 1956-1970, he had this Arab union idea and the older generations of Arabs appreciate it a lot, but this generation is against it mostly from what I see, and each Arab is sticking with his country only that many now deny being an Arab and prefer to be proud of other origins as Pharaos, Berber and others.
it wasn't obvious until something as trivial as football made it clear but I personally am still with the Arab union idea, politically and financially



Yeah, it separates Sinai peninsula from the rest of the country

and we could -if we wanted to have a strong role in the region- use it as a way to prevents such things from happening, or show some guts, but our wise leaders choose not to.



Out of curiousity only, does most of the population in Algeria hate Egypt as it seems?
I think it's a mutual misunderstanding because of something very stupid, and I personally supported Algeria in the WC, but many people here are misled by the media and I believe so are the ones in Algeria

I know where it is, buck tooth, and the reason I said that was because....

http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=242532&
link in Arabic.

Yes, it is true
and they were guarded by us as well..

if the Egyptian president was actually chosen by the people, we would've never let them pass...

....this company is a separate legal entity and does not answer to anyone, including the president....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal_Authority

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

In Libya, the Berbers aren't more than 3-5%. I will admit, that they are an oppressed minority in my country, they aren't allowed to speak their language, or name their children in Berber names.

Scotland?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Berbers good, Arabs bad.

 

[JBF]

And you're one bad bad drunk zionist

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Forza Zionism and suicide doors on bombs.

 

[Fred]

In a way you're right. But, the Arabs that stayed in Maghreb were assimilated, not really the other way (you could also say that no one was, and that they just evolve together). There was crossbreed, and calling them Arabs wouldn't be true. You could call them ''Arabophone'' (Even if the dialect isn't the same), but saying they are Arabs isn't true. They became Berbers. The so-called ''true'' Berbers are the one that speaks Amazigh, but the one that speaks ''Arab'' are too.

I made a mistake, if I did claim most Algerians consider themselves Berber. But, there is a wrong interpretation by a lot of Algerian ''Arabs'', about a lot of thing. Most people tends to believe that Islam and Arabicness are inseparable, and that is one of the reason they claim being ones or think being ones. Saying that these people are the same as middle-easterner is wrong, some of their ancestors were but not them. We are not the same at all (For the record, I don't hate the true Arabs [the ones from the peninsula] and the other who considers themselves so, just to make it clear if I did look like saying that). This is simply impossible for a colon to assimilate a nation, history showed that.




Yeah, it is true. Not really related with what you said, but did you know that there was even some pharaohs who were Berber?

I don't agree with this. How did they become Berbers? Sure they cross bred, but Arabs are still statistically a majority in Algeria, plus the dominant culture is the Arab culture. Its more like the Berbers assimilated into Arab culture if you ask me.

This is simply impossible for a colon to assimilate a nation, history showed that.

Arabs did not come as colonizers. At that time there was no such thing as geographic borders and things like that, so Arabs with their nomadic nature immigrated to a lot of places, one of them being North Africa. Berbers and Arabs lived side to side for centuries. If you are going to say Arabs colonized North Africa, then they did the same to Syria, Lebanon, Iraq etc.

Berbers good, Arabs bad.

They have some really hot girls, thats for sure. :lick:

 

[Naggar]

Lol, this makes absolutely no sense

Barbarian is a Greek word with which the Greeks initially called those who didn't speak Greek.Later they called barbarians those who weren't "as civilized" as the Greeks were and it became a pejorative term.
The Berbers were simply Libyans if you asked the Greeks and sure, they were barbarian too simply because they didn't speak Greek and they didn't have the "superior" Athenian culture. But so were the Germanic tribes and you don't call the Germans barbarians (Well.... if you're not a Jew )

I don't know the origin of the name Berber. It's not a name Greeks gave to them and I don't see why would the Romans call them that way when they were already known as Mauri by the Romans. I think it's a local name and it has absolutely nothing to do with the word barbarian.

I am not very well versed on their history, but of course it has nothing to do with the word Barbarian. Though, i was under the impression, that it was the Romans who called them Berbers, are you sure it wasn't the Romans??

Exactly what I knew.
but recently, some people mix them both in order to make the current situation betwen Egypt and Algeria much worse, by calling them barbarians, very low if you ask me.

....this company is a separate legal entity and does not answer to anyone, including the president....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal_Authority

As far as I know this company was declared 100% Egyptian and belongs to the government since 1956, and from what I studied, all the yearly profit from Suez canal goes to the government -and supposedly to the people-
so it's 100% Egyptian, unless something changed while I was asleep..

Edit: and I just checked the official website and it says 100% Egyptian belonging to the government.. including the president.

 

[TrezJuve]

Berbers good, Arabs bad.

. Arabs are not bad though.

I don't agree with this. How did they become Berbers? Sure they cross bred, but Arabs are still statistically a majority in Algeria, plus the dominant culture is the Arab culture. Its more like the Berbers assimilated into Arab culture if you ask me.

Arabs did not come as colonizers.

I meant, by this that they are not Arabs, they are Algerian. And, are you telling me that there was more Arab immigrants than the Berbers themselves who lived there for thousand of years? Majority of the so-called Arab have some Berbers roots, if not almost all of them (not denying they and I have Arab roots too). They are not Arab anymore, they are Algerian. The Majority in Algeria is Arabophone (Even if it's not really Arabic, and although it is based on that language), and they based the society on Arabic language because of Islam.

There is a big identity problem going on in Algeria, and unconsciously a lot of ''Arab'' Algerians understood that they have not a lot of thing in common with the people that call themselves Arab, because of the Algeria Vs. Egypt saga. The French and our second president, Ben Balla (who said that we were Arab only to have the back-up of the Arab countries [Yet again, political reason] ; He made a lot of mess in the country) contributed to make Algerians confused about their culture. Ben Balla was also the one who was a big admirer of Nasser (Egyptian), asked him to help him with education in our country, because the majority of French professors were gone. Conclusion, Nasser being intelligent and wanting to keep educated people in his country, sent a bunch of thugs (some of them were even in prison) called the Muslim Brothers. They were uneducated, violent for nothing (there was never in the French era that sort of professor, even if they were extremely severe), not caring about Algerians who they considered less ''Arab'' than there countryman (and guess what, that's the only thing in which they were right). This is one of a lot of thing where Egypt screwed us. I don't held Egyptian people responsible of that though.

At that time there was no such thing as geographic borders and things like that, so Arabs with their nomadic nature immigrated to a lot of places, one of them being North Africa.

Yes, there was no geographic borders; but there was tribe who all of them had there kingdom with a ''dey'' (Like a chief of the tribe) at their helm. Some tribes were not friendly with others, but when there was an invader, like the Romans, they all united against the menace.

When I said the Arabs were there for colonizing, I didn't mean that. Sorry for my poor English, some time I just don't say what I mean because this is not my mother-tongue, obviously. (It's French..) Anyway, I meant that they immigrated and wanted to promote Islam. Berbers sure accepted Islam. But they didn't really live ''side by side'' at first, atleast not all of them, there was a lot of crossbreeding. I heard a lot of things about it. Now, can we call them Arab? No, I don't think so. They and I only are Algerian.

Not related, to you're post:

As a matter of fact, did you know that there is a good number of ''Arab'' Algerian across the country, that consider Ribéry as an Arab, only because he's Muslim and he's married to an Algerian. He's a fucking French. Some people are just deluded when it comes to Arabicness.

What is a damn Arab nowadays (the concept)? This term exist only for political reason, and even if there's people believing in that thing. However, everyone is entitled to his opinion, I guess.

And, if Arabs thinks we would have been beaten by the French without their help, IT'S FUCKING RIDICULOUS. We gave money to Egypt, our supposed ally, to provide us weapon and supply and they kept the money. Yet again, what a great act by the Arab leaders. The only people who helped us were the Tunsi (Tunisians) and the Moroccans not the Arabs. Arabs never truly cared about us and we should not care about them. I don’t care about them.



EDIT: Oh, I'm hoping all of you won't get lost with my syntax, if somehow you read that huuuge post.

 

[Naggar]

Your post makes me really sad..
I'm just glad you don't represent the majority of Algerians, and those who started the war between the 2 countries don't represent each side at all, the real people love each other regardless of the media
and I know majority of Algerians consider themselves Arabs and brothers to us

[video=facebook;446529030619]http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=446529030619&ref=mf[/video]

[video=facebook;424983015619]http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=424983015619&oid=119282794773955[/video]

watch these, they made my day..

 

[TrezJuve]

Naggar, I find the conflict between Egypt and Algeria really sad too.

Even though, I think you are our Muslim brothers, not Arab ones. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. But, yes, Egyptians are our brother.

 

[TrezJuve]

I don't hate Egyptians unlike a loooot of Algerians, believe me.

 

[Naggar]

you made a very good point here
لا فرق بين عربي ولا أعجمي إلا بالتقوى
being a muslim surely comes much before being an arab, then nationalities, and I'm really glad the educated people in both countries know the truth

 

[TrezJuve]

Totally.

Hey, I forgot about your question! The one about the incidents between Egypt and Algeria. I find that it's really the fault of both sides. All this was because of a sport and that's a shame. That just shows how football means everything in our countries.

 

[Naggar]

yeah..

the best analysis I heard was that Arab countires didn't achieve anything worth mentioning recently in the world, so they fight over meaningless victories in football

so what local team do you support?

 

[TrezJuve]

NAHD.. But they kinda suck a lot, right now. I don't really follow Chemma league at the moment, but I like a lot JSM Bejaïa too.

What about yours ?

 

[Naggar]

I know NAHD, we played them before in African champions league
but never heard of JSM Bejaia..
I know shabibat al qaba2el too, we're playing them this year

Ahly die hard fan here! and ittihad skandari because I'm a member and they represent my city
I also like Sfaxi and Nejm from Tunis and Maghreb