Nick Against the World (49 Viewers)

IncuboRossonero · Nov 20, 2003

Denco: Its obvious that with all due respect that your sources come too much from stats and not enough from actually watching and following these careers:

- If Costacurta rode on Baresi's coat tails how do you explain the following:

In the 94 WC Italy's defence was hailed as spectacular. Note Baresi was injured game one and returned in the final. Costacurta commanded the center of the defence for the entire tournament and was named Stopper of the year by Fifa. Also due in part to the CL and Scudetto victories.

After Baresi retired Costacurta contined to be a starter in both Milan and on the NT squad WITHOUT Sacchi as coach. In fact, three months before the WC 2002 Tap called on Costacurta to join the team but Costacurta was nursing an injury which was thought to be career-ending. So much for the Sacchi and Baresi theories.

This past season at Ferrara's age Costacurta played and held both Juventus and Real Madrid goalless. Nesta DID NOT play vs. Real and vs. Juventus he played the right...a position he had not played consistently in over 8 years. Not bad!

Ferrara was an above average defender who played in Napoli but had the ill-fortune of being in the same generation of men like Paolo, Alessandro and Franco. Tassotti, Filippo Galli and Panucci played with them but could not hang on enough to start with them on a regular basis. To say Costacurta is not one of the top defenders of his time is because you have only seen him play as of recent...do your homework...ask around...but don't be surprised if people laugh.

No educated and knowledged Serie A Juve fan would dare mutter the words Maldini and Ferrara in the same sentence. The legendary defenders of Italy are Maldini, Baresi and Scirea (Yes the Juve Scirea)...NOT FERRARA as much as you like to think. When I was trying to understand why someone would put Ferrara in this category it became clear. If you have only watched Ferrara and Maldini as of recently .. yes they both are starters and at a certain age and maybe in some way comparable. Even though Ferrara can dream of Golden Ball possibilities and Maldini is a contender.

Please...Ferrara revived his career with Juve. if you are familiar with the Napoli of Maradona, Cannigia et al. then you know what Ferrrara was really like ... Years from now the names Maldini, Scirea, Baresi and Costacurta will be itched in NT history...Ferrara's will not.

Hydde · Nov 21, 2003

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
Hydde with all due respect all this cry for respect in threads coming from a guy who posts while intoxicated? Did you forget that? Your giving me the TSK TSK shame on me lecture while you started posting incoherent words and sentences while drunk. If you forgot about that incident you can go back and re-read your 'moment in the spotlight'.

By the way, Ferrara over Maldini makes you sound like absolute no nothing football fans...so please.
I could easily make a strong arguement of Costacurta being a better defender than Ferrara. Should I even bother. For you Johnny-come-lately fans who rely on stats go google Costacurta's name and have your eyes pop out of your head when you see what he has been a part of and more importantly what he continues to be a part of.
Was Ferrara even on the National Team?! 94...98...2002?

Art I'm trying to make you justify some of your club's actions and see if you are TRULY an educated Juve and Football fan or just a bandwagoner.

So what if i drink on a weekend? Now its a Sin right!? :rolleyes:

But even if i drink all the fokin beers in the world , there is still the fact that you are just posting to provoke people.

IncuboRossonero · Nov 21, 2003

Hydde: You seem to be the only one not concentrating on what I post and rather choosing to re-iterate your same old song. I'm having you defend Juve....just like I have to defend Milan. Except if you read my posts rationally you will notice that I admit and rationalize and its not all anti-Juve Pro-Milan talk. From the start I leaned on Buffon in the Buffon-Dida side. I have highlighted what I don't like about Juve and WHAT I LIKE and areas which are questionable about BOTH TEAMS: Galliani-Moggi love affiar. I don't agree with Galliani as President of FIGC and I also don't agree with Moggi's PR campaign. If you don't agree tell me why but don't keep throwing the same old "why are you here" "stop provoking" arguements. Defend your position and tell me why I'm wrong.
I'll admit it...I will fight fire and fire and won't take the wise road of non-confrontation and yes some things were in your face but it seperated the rational logical fans: Gray, Goat and Rickenbacker from the non-rational fans: lets not start ...you know who you are. Not to say I will agree with them, on the contrary I won't .... and sometimes it will spill into "dirty water" .. see past posts. If you have such a problem with my posts why do you feel the urge like a gigantic magnet to read them and keep answering them?
And nothing wrong with a few brews once in a while..just don't preach celibacy if you live in Amsterdam...

IncuboRossonero · Nov 21, 2003

JUVE FACT OF THE DAY:

See my previous post: In the future Costacurta will be remembered as the better defender over Ferrara. Even though its an opinion....its so written in stone that I present it as a fact!

gray · Nov 21, 2003

Oh come on, you're not gonna start judging someone based on their behaviour while drunk...

btw i never said Ferrara's better than Maldini, but I'd pick Ciro in my team, it's just a matter of personal preference. To bring Costacurta into the arguement though, is just an insult to Ferrara.

gray · Nov 21, 2003

:LOL: I like that one :howler:

now that's what i meant by original one-liners

Majed · Nov 21, 2003

Yeah, and Paramatti is the best defender ever because it's some guy's opinion somewhere. so it should also be a fact.

Ian · Nov 21, 2003

I agree. Ferrara is far superior to Castacurta, and there are a lot things that you can say about Ferrara: he has no pace, he's ugly, he can't sing... but you can't say that he doesn't ge the job done. And that's what it's all about, right?

IncuboRossonero · Nov 21, 2003

Gray,

If your going to make a statement like that...you have to be ready to back it up. More over, if your going to make a statement like that its because your only familiar with the Juve Ciro and the current sometimes starting Costacurta. As much as Ciro is the loveable and untouchable defender of Juventini his prime was not in his mid thirties with Juve but in his 20's with Napoli. One of these defenders played at a level the other could only dream about: World Cups, Intercontinental cups and CL all before reaching 25 years of age and continuing to play until his thirties. One was 1/3 of the greatest defensive units to be seen in the Italian National team and the European team of the decade. When his so called 'master' retired he continued to shine and even took over central defense in WC 94 when Baresi was injured the whole tournament. He captained the National team and Milan. This was his prime .... where was Ciro at his prime? He was 26 in 94...he was not even on the squad. Simply put how can he possibly be? He was struggling to re-invent himself as a defender. Don't be naive and compare these players in the past 3 years but this is not their prime..this is their final curtain call..and the way you are simply putting your nose up and refusing to show me WHY Ciro cannot be compared to Costacurta it is because you are not famiiar with their careers. Twice I made valid statements and twice you gave me the simpleton answer.
These men have had careers way beyond May 28th, 2003 and the last few seasons. Its ok to admit that your basing your conclusions on the CIRO today and COSTACURTA today but its not wise to think that what you see is what you get. When you mention the name Costacurta people will tell you stories such as that of a defensive unit that helped SEBASTIANO ROSSI (Rossi!) to break Zoff's record for most minutes without a goal...
There is a history behind these defenders that way go beyond the 2000's....in which they were hitting their late 30's.

gray · Nov 21, 2003

:LOL:

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
Gray,

If your going to make a statement like that...you have to be ready to back it up. More over, if your going to make a statement like that its because your only familiar with the Juve Ciro and the current sometimes starting Costacurta. As much as Ciro is the loveable and untouchable defender of Juventini his prime was not in his mid thirties with Juve but in his 20's with Napoli. One of these defenders played at a level the other could only dream about: World Cups, Intercontinental cups and CL all before reaching 25 years of age and continuing to play until his thirties. One was 1/3 of the greatest defensive units to be seen in the Italian National team and the European team of the decade. When his so called 'master' retired he continued to shine and even took over central defense in WC 94 when Baresi was injured the whole tournament. He captained the National team and Milan. This was his prime .... where was Ciro at his prime? He was 26 in 94...he was not even on the squad. Simply put how can he possibly be? He was struggling to re-invent himself as a defender. Don't be naive and compare these players in the past 3 years but this is not their prime..this is their final curtain call..and the way you are simply putting your nose up and refusing to show me WHY Ciro cannot be compared to Costacurta it is because you are not famiiar with their careers. Twice I made valid statements and twice you gave me the simpleton answer.
These men have had careers way beyond May 28th, 2003 and the last few seasons. Its ok to admit that your basing your conclusions on the CIRO today and COSTACURTA today but its not wise to think that what you see is what you get. When you mention the name Costacurta people will tell you stories such as that of a defensive unit that helped SEBASTIANO ROSSI (Rossi!) to break Zoff's record for most minutes without a goal...
There is a history behind these defenders that way go beyond the 2000's....in which they were hitting their late 30's.

I didn't bother myself with coming up with evidence, because my fellow posters e.g. denco, have pretty much said all there is to say

IncuboRossonero · Nov 21, 2003

This is your evidence? You have told ME NOTHING about why Ferrara is better than Costacurta in his career because you mentioned one game in which he was totally off his game..and I may add there was a personal crisis in his life. And secondly, the suspension came from two yellow cards and not a red. You only showed me holes as to why Costacurta is not great but never showed my WHY he was inferior to Ferrara. Where was Ferrara through all this? Also let me ask you this both DENCO and GRAY:
You have Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta...branded as the most powerful defensive Unit in Europe...going two seasons without a loss and having a goalie like ROSSI (SEBASTIANO ROSSI) attain a record of most games without a single GOAL... now it comes time to selection..and your staying keep one of them at home??? Who is the lunatic? Oh YEAH and look I said boys DROP THE DAMN STATS....Costacurta was selected PRE-Sacchi..maybe you heard of that coach!
No one is showing me why Ferrara had a better career than Costacurta..your showing why Costacurta is NOT UP THERE with Paolo and Baresi. Show me HOW Ferrara had a better career than Costacurta....and please please gentleman...if you don't know..don't rely on stats..there is more than meets the eye...and that goes for GOOGLE as well.

IncuboRossonero · Nov 21, 2003

Oh yeah to answer your other question:

Billy's 8 years in the NT (not consisent/continual 8)...3 were under Sacchi
*cough*

Zlatan · Nov 21, 2003

OK, Ferrara sucks, Costacurta is the ruler of the Universe, who would be able to stop a Marsian invasion by his superior defending skills, at the same thime singing a nice traditional italian love song and playing with his wife while talking ot the phone to his manager...

I'd still take Ferrara

denco · Nov 22, 2003

Hmm , Maldini was moved to the centre of defence in the wc and that was why Italy's defence could cope without Baresi and lets see they faced the attacking talents of Norway and Mexico in the first round , were given the run around by Nigeria in the second round and lets face it if not for poor refereeing decisions and poor finishing Spain would have beaten Italy , not much to do with defence , Bulgaria too was wayward finishing

You say post Baresi, Costacurta was picked, so , are you refering to the EURO 1996 fiasco? And post Sacchi, it was Maldin who took over , I don't know if he picked Costacurta to be honest but he does have Milan connections

You talk about Milan going thru all those games without conceding, yes their defence was strong but it was in spite of Costacurta not because of him

And lets see post Baresi , what positions and how many goals were Milan leaking, I mean you guys came 11th and suffered badly under Sacchi, Oscar Tabarez Washington and Capello, so I don't what you mean by Costacurta was a rock as he wasn't

Maldini had to be brought to the middle before your defence started to make sense

And from your analogy , because Juve conceded the least amount of goals in season 99/2000 , does that make iulian a genius, no it does not, he was just fortunate to be paired with Montero and Ferrara

Now as for Ferrara being revived by Juventus, thats not entirely true as he was excellent for Napoli, nothing to do with stats, he won 2 scudettoes with them and a UEFA cup, not bad for a club which is not so big

And was he not the mentor of Italy's current captain?

Ferrara was not picked by Sacchi because he was obsessed with zonal marking and that was why he dropped Bergomi and Ferrara, with Ferri and brought his Milan boys

I would argue till i drop that Costacurta was the weak link in arguably the greatest defensive quartet the world club football has ever seen

But Costacurta is a definitely a downgrade to Ferrara and Montero

IncuboRossonero · Nov 22, 2003

If Costacurta was the weak link explain this: WHY was he always a set piece and players such as Tassotti, Filippo Galli and Panucci never able to keep up?? They were flipped and moved .. why not COSTACURTA??? If he was so weak why not move him...they certainly had MANY players in that position.

By the way...its not a question of having least goals scored....its a question of knowing that if you mention MILAN and DEFENCE it is three names that stick to mind NOT TWO. Your in spite of Costacurta comment was quite feeble because it was an attack with no evidence whatsoever. A team like Milan has dropped the likes of Albertini, Weah, Gullit, Rikaard, etc. who are were the core of that team...had Costacurta been has mediocre as you say they would have dropped him from the start.
Again Denco all you did was show me why he is not up there with Maldini and Baresi and failed to compare the careers. 2 scudettos for Ferrara on a team known for their offense rather than defense. Come on...seriously...all your doing is putting down Costacurta .. your evidence on Ferrara is pathetic. Its almost non-existent. You want to pick apart Ciro's career. WHAT CAREER? He is one of those defenders people wrote off 3-4 years ago. What will he be remembered for? In his twenties he didn't see a blue shirt..nevermind injury here or there. Your telling me that Sacchi should have left Costacurta home? Even though it WAS VICINI who selected him. Should he have split up the strongest defense in the world.
By the way, the past coaches of the National team...Vicini, Sacchi, Maldini, Trap. all have a link to Milan .. so if thats your generic excuse its lame and weak.
How does that explain his call up from TRAP in april 2002 to enquire about his injury.
Dude seriously...Montero I won't even mention because he should not even be with Juve..he is as we say in italian a "mezza tacca" ..half cleat. How can you seee something like that in a defender like Ferrara .. who wil be remembered more for his personatity and attitude than skill. His career was a "never was" never mind a "has been".

Ali · Nov 22, 2003

It's funny how your stats are all right while others are nothing. You are not as objective as you might want people to believe. A defence is judged by performance. If it sucks then it shows right? You've been trumpeting the Milan trio who helped Rossi break a record but when Denco analyses Costacurta post Baresi (and it stinks) you cry wolf! :rolleyes:

Majed · Nov 22, 2003

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Hmm , Maldini was moved to the centre of defence in the wc and that was why Italy's defence could cope without Baresi and lets see they faced the attacking talents of Norway and Mexico in the first round , were given the run around by Nigeria in the second round and lets face it if not for poor refereeing decisions and poor finishing Spain would have beaten Italy , not much to do with defence , Bulgaria too was wayward finishing

You say post Baresi, Costacurta was picked, so , are you refering to the EURO 1996 fiasco? And post Sacchi, it was Maldin who took over , I don't know if he picked Costacurta to be honest but he does have Milan connections

You talk about Milan going thru all those games without conceding, yes their defence was strong but it was in spite of Costacurta not because of him

And lets see post Baresi , what positions and how many goals were Milan leaking, I mean you guys came 11th and suffered badly under Sacchi, Oscar Tabarez Washington and Capello, so I don't what you mean by Costacurta was a rock as he wasn't

Maldini had to be brought to the middle before your defence started to make sense

And from your analogy , because Juve conceded the least amount of goals in season 99/2000 , does that make iulian a genius, no it does not, he was just fortunate to be paired with Montero and Ferrara

Now as for Ferrara being revived by Juventus, thats not entirely true as he was excellent for Napoli, nothing to do with stats, he won 2 scudettoes with them and a UEFA cup, not bad for a club which is not so big

And was he not the mentor of Italy's current captain?

Ferrara was not picked by Sacchi because he was obsessed with zonal marking and that was why he dropped Bergomi and Ferrara, with Ferri and brought his Milan boys

I would argue till i drop that Costacurta was the weak link in arguably the greatest defensive quartet the world club football has ever seen

But Costacurta is a definitely a downgrade to Ferrara and Montero

Well Said Denco... :thumb:

Majed · Nov 22, 2003

Because Costacurta was still a bit better than those you mentioned... I dont see anything Special about Panucci, or Galli. Tassotti was already past his prime (Same reason why Legro starts ahead of Ferrara now in Juve).
Please dont assume that we Think Costacurta was a nothing..

with the Exception of Albertini, those are really bad Examples Incubo... you dissappoint me Incubo.... :rolleyes:

It's true that the players you mentioned were the core of the team, but it's not like Milan dropped them because they had better options. Those players didn't want to stay.

1. Milan Desperatly wanted to keep Rijkaard, but after the European Cup
final defeat against Marseille Rijkaard wanted to go to Ajax, and Milan couldn't stop him.

2. Weah's form actually dipped with injuries, and he was benched for a long time under Zac. Milan bought Jose Mari to be his replacement. Weah was never at his best when he was dropped by Milan.

3. As for Gullit, Milan really wanted him to stay but his problems both with Capello and Baresi made things really tough. That's why he left milan the first time. when he rejoined milan from Sampdoria, he still had problems so Milan had no choice but to sell him.

Luckly Costacurta had no problems, so he stayed. It doesn't mean he's any better or as good as those players, it just means he had better relations.

please dont forget the years he won so many trophies with juve too.
BTW, just because Napoli were known for their Offense, it doesn't mean that the team sucked at D. Ferrara's job was probibly harder because the team concentrated less on defensive tactics. so each of the defenders' Skills were important.

Putting him down to the level he belongs is an argument. i think you really overrate Costacurta. i dont see how you compare him to Maldini and Baresi. Mind you that i dont think Ferrara compares to them either, but he's still a bit better than Costa.
proving(arguing) that A is less than B is just another way of proving B is more than A.

i dont see anything weak or lame about it. I think Ferrara isn't that much better than Costa (The Italian coached may have though that too or at least thought they were at the same level), so why is it hard to believe that Costa was always chosen because he had a better understanding with Maldini and Baresi who were the defensive core. (doesn't mean Costa is as good as those two...it just means that he would be better suited than Ferrara in the NT)

Big deal, Ferrara was in the Euro 2000 National team and i believe did play some games in 2001 with the national team.

a Never Was that won 7 scudetti and had 49 Caps.... some wierd standards you got there... what would you call Paramatti?! :howler:

IncuboRossonero · Nov 22, 2003

You either mis-read my whole point here: I never put Costacurta with Baresi and Maldini because these two as much as it kills others are in the top defenders in Italy's history. You are gloriously mistaken with Ferrara...I assume its because his reputation and personality far exceeds his skill. You are talking about a player in Costacurta who began playing in the CL at 22 .... are you really naive to believe that a team like Milan will keep him on because well he "will do". You also didn't get my point...you paint Costacurta as an average defender...no an average defender does not accomplish what he HAS with this type of team..stay on...keep a starting spot and play at this level for years. The team will not extend favors to anyone to risk losing titles. Panucci was an average defender? Someone mentioned good relations...so here is a team regarded as a dynasty with two of the top defenders ever who are going to keep an average defender on the squad for year and years just because of good relations? You don't play and stay with the best in the game if your average and you certainly don't play in the most illustrious tournaments in the football world because you are "the right guy and the right place".... I really don't get how Costacurta can both be average but maintain a top spot in Milan at a time which players like Panucci, Filippo Galli (another NATIONAL TEAM PLAYER) and Tassotti were sent packing. On one hand your saying he is average on a great team ... why would a great team start an average player...why would a national team start an average player if there are so many others available as you claim. More importantly, where was Ciro in his prime???
You want to talk post-Baresi: You make it seem like they team and Costacurta crumbled..you spoke of that 11th place but fail to mention that the year before they reached the final in CL and lost in the final minute of the game 1-0 and the year after they won the Scudetto. In 98-99 they won the title again? Where exactly is this crumble? More importantly...if your going to put a player's performance with his team's decline...what is there to say about Ferrrara? Shall I continue...
Morevoer, Costacurta was a fixture AND CAPTAIN (when paolo was injured) on the Italy squad POST BARESI and POST SACCHI....Go ahead and cite your Maldini and the Milan Link....dude, trap played for Milan....you could go on in circles...
Also, I really expected more from you Denco...the crux of your agruement is that Ciro was Fabio's mentor? Are you serious...how weak. Firstly, Nesta is the star of that unit and you are speaking as if Fabio is the strongest defender. Secondly, Fabio surpassed the "mentor" a long time ago....the things Fabio has done (much like what a NATIONAL TEAM DEFENDER HAS DONE) can only be dreamed of by Ferrara. Are you saying that Ferrara instilled his style in Fabio? God please...get real. They happened to be Neopolitan and both in the same squad and two Southern Italians playing in a team dominated by Northern Italians...the comparison ends THERE. Mentor means moral support in this case...just like Kaka and SHEVA saying Costacurta acted as Mentor upon their rival. What those that say? That Costacurta had a secretive knack to score which he choose to keep secret? Actually we as ITALIANS can be thankful that Fabio didn't follow in Ciro's footsteps and actually played on the National team. Bottom line is....if your talented YOU WILL PLAY in the National Team...Italy will not risk leaving a defender as powerful as you claim Ferrara was at home because of a coach's decision. Ferrara was not choosen from Vicini days...do you really think it was all because of a grudge?

Montero, Ferrara....In his 20's he was simply non-existent and your run of the mill average defender...this is something you are having trouble admitting. And this was the crux of his career not his PK in the Supercoppa in August. Everyone is so eager to pinpoint his selection in 2000-2001 YOU FAIL TO REALIZE he was already in his thirties...and defenders are not keepers...you know from a young age where they stand. From there they get better...but don't cite me his appearance in the NT at 32 years of age after a career of mediocrity.
I suppose you are going to say that Ciro is better than Nesta .... to be honest I will end this discussion here because its going around in circles. In retrospect I should have stopped when someone wrote that Ciro was better than Maldini....how can I take this debate seriously after a comment like that.

denco · Nov 23, 2003

Hey Incubo, Ferrara played 49 times for Italy, 25 of them was when he was at Napoli, so he was not in his 30s when he played for the Azzurri
He definitely would have played more times if not that Sacchi was fond of picking players to suit his system and when did Trapatoni pick Costacurta?

You mentioned that Tassotti and Panucci were shipped out, wrong Tassotti got injured and subsequently retired and Capello took Panucci off with him to Real Madrid

Now you seem to be telling me because Costacurta played oh so many times for Italy and Ferrara didn't , that some how vindicates your arguments that Billy is better than Ciro

Since when did the amount of caps you have, indicate how much better you are than anyone?

You seem to be forgetting as well that Milan were ready to ship out Costacurta, but no club wanted him so they offered him a contract after the season had started

Costacurta captained Italy 3 times, so what?

Also let me remind you that Baresi had actually retired from the Azzurri after 92 and when the world cup qualifiers started , to be more specific against Switzerland, the Swiss went 2 goals up with Billy having a nightmare and thats when ppl started saying that yes we were right he cannot play without BARESI

Correct me if I am wrong did the whole of Italy including Sacchi beg Baresi to come out of retirement to save the mess that was the Italian defence?

Vincini did infact pick Ferrara , handing him his debut against Maradona's argentina and telling him to man mark Maradona in the friendly in switzerland where Italy won 3-1 in 1987 , I think

I am not 100% sure on this but O do think that Sacchi actually handed Costacurta his debut and not Vicini as you have said

But one thing I would give good old Billy he had a fantastic season last season, in fact thats the best I have ever seen him play

If Ferra was playing in such an attack minded team like Napoli as you put it, then he musta done something right to be noticed as a defender as he was picked more than 20 times and he was in his 20's

When Maradona left he still stood out for Napoli and that was why Roma and other clubs were up for him but we got him and we have never regretted buying him

Are you aware that since Ferrara joined Juventus , he has won the scudetto 5 times and in the same period Billy has won it only twice while they have both won the Cl once in the same period

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