Nick Against the World (75 Viewers)

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
I beg to differ my friend. I do think that what a good keeper shoud have is good shot stopping ability, good reflexes, good handling and good at crosses and good at rushing out. IMO his foot skills (if we mean control, dribbling, and anything else but what he needs to make a good save), or organizing a defense, or by their ability to distribute the ball. It's not a keepers job to distribute the ball or to start the defence, his only job should be not conceding goals. Anything else is a bonus, but in no means neccessety.

You couldn't be more wrong. A keeper can very easily make up for his lack of shot stopping ability by organizing his defence well, and can make up for conceding goals by creating them with distribution. A keeper with good footskills is less likely to concede a goal on a back-pass, and a keeper who is good with crosses can prevent shots from being taken. You need to think deeper. A keeper who just stopped shots and did nothing else, no matter how good he was at it would be a pretty shitty keeper.

 

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[Zlatan]

I understand that, and I agree, but I just dont think it's as important as you say, and IMO no keeper can make up for conceding goals by creating them (as it very rarely happens that a GK directly creates a goal, IIRC Bayern used to do it pretty well two or three years ago with the Kahn + Elber duo). Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is this: would you rather have a keeper thats good at shotstopping with good reflexes and bad distribution and organizing the defense, or a keeper with bad shot stopping ability and bad reflexes with good distributional and organizing skills. What I'm traying to say is, while I do accept and know that distribution and organiznig is important, it's nowhere near as important as shot stopping and relfexes. Ultimately, I think we just disagree about the sugnificance of the skills.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
I understand that, and I agree, but I just dont think it's as important as you say, and IMO no keeper can make up for conceding goals by creating them (as it very rarely happens that a GK directly creates a goal, IIRC Bayern used to do it pretty well two or three years ago with the Kahn + Elber duo). Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is this: would you rather have a keeper thats good at shotstopping with good reflexes and bad distribution and organizing the defense, or a keeper with bad shot stopping ability and bad reflexes with good distributional and organizing skills. What I'm traying to say is, while I do accept and know that distribution and organiznig is important, it's nowhere near as important as shot stopping and relfexes. Ultimately, I think we just disagree about the sugnificance of the skills.

I'd would take the latter of the two without hesitation. Surely the team has to be suited to that type of keeper, but if it is, then there is no problem. Mayb eJuve is more suited to Buffon's style of play. I'm not sure that I can say that conclusively...

 

[Zlatan]

I'd take the former without hesitation

But you must admit Buffon has been more successful in Juve than VDS.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
I'd take the former without hesitation

But you must admit Buffon has been more successful in Juve than VDS.

I wouldn't say that Buffon has been more successful, I'd say that the team has has more success during Buffon's time. It could be because of Buffon, but there are other obvious differences between the squads. The team that Buffon has had in front of him has always been much better attacking than Edwin's team was. Edwin had a lazy uninspiring Zidane, while Buffon has an industrious, self-less Nedved. Edwin had an out of form Del Piero partnered with the tap-in king Inzaghi. They had no height. Buffon has had Del Piero on form (at least sometimes), and trezeguet the goal machine. He's also had camoranesi, where Edwin had Conte. Camo is a much better attacker than Conte. I'd say that a comparison is very difficult. Anyway, the point is that Edwin and Buffon played for the same team, but they did have the same sqaud in front of them, nor did they have the same coach, so it's really tough to tell who was the better keeper while they were at Juve. Yeah, yeah, I know people are going to say "what about that blunder against Roma." And guess what? All keepers make mistakes, even Buffon, he makes mistakes too. It's just that people seem less willing ot jump on him for it, and his standing as folk hero and Italy number 1 offer him some slack from the fans.

 

[Zlatan]

I remember Buffons misstake against Chiveo in his first season, but it was one misstake, not a drop of form like with VDS, who played very bad for a longer period, for some two months. And I agree with Juve, why should they have waited when a better option is available.

 

[Art^]

How come many fans of other clubs comes and in some way critisize juve???

Please if you all are against us, go and make a documentary called "Bowling for Bianconero"

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
I remember Buffons misstake against Chiveo in his first season, but it was one misstake, not a drop of form like with VDS, who played very bad for a longer period, for some two months. And I agree with Juve, why should they have waited when a better option is available.

Well, I just hope you remember this conversation when Buffon has a dip in form. It will undoubtedly happen, it happens to even the best players. I doubt you'll be crying to buy another keeper.

 

[Zlatan]

Because there are no better alternatives out there, but if they were, I'd feel the same way, I dont like Buffon any more than other Juve players. Also, we would need to replace VDS sooner or later, as he wasnt getting any younger. So, why not sooner.

Like I said before, the only untouchable figure in Juve is Moggi

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
Because there are no better alternatives out there, but if they were, I'd feel the same way, I dont like Buffon any more than other Juve players. Also, we would need to replace VDS sooner or later, as he wasnt getting any younger. So, why not sooner.

Like I said before, the only untouchable figure in Juve is Moggi

Actually, we had already purchased Edwin's replacement when Buffon was bought. His name (you might remember) is Fabian Carini. At the time, he was the youngest international keeper, and wuite a good one. The press is now linking him to Atletico Madrid. He's clearly a jem and even younger than Buffon. Given a year or two more at Juve, it's more than probable that he could've become the starter. Sure that's conjecture but Buffon was a gamble too. There was no way to tell how well he woudl do with Juve, how he would interact with Lippi, or how he would perform for a big team.

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


Actually, we had already purchased Edwin's replacement when Buffon was bought. His name (you might remember) is Fabian Carini. At the time, he was the youngest international keeper, and wuite a good one. The press is now linking him to Atletico Madrid. He's clearly a jem and even younger than Buffon. Given a year or two more at Juve, it's more than probable that he could've become the starter. Sure that's conjecture but Buffon was a gamble too. There was no way to tell how well he woudl do with Juve, how he would interact with Lippi, or how he would perform for a big team.

Do I sense a little sarcasm?


I do in fact remember Carini, I remember seing him in Coppa Italia, in the South American Cup (whatever it's called) with Uruguay, and I remember seeing him in the WC, and I also remember hm not impressing me, with the odd exception of the Arsenal game when he was good and saved Henry's penalty.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by GOAT ] ++
Do I sense a little sarcasm?


I do in fact remember Carini, I remember seing him in Coppa Italia, in the South American Cup (whatever it's called) with Uruguay, and I remember seeing him in the WC, and I also remember hm not impressing me, with the odd exception of the Arsenal game when he was good and saved Henry's penalty.

Well, whatever, a lot of people are convinced of his talent, even if you aren't, but that's niether here nor there. I am going to defend Edwin tll the day I die, but I'm strategically withdrawing from this battle, I've newer and more intersting arguments to make elsewhere.

 

[Zlatan]

Fine with me

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by Art^ ] ++
How come many fans of other clubs comes and in some way critisize juve???

Please if you all are against us, go and make a documentary called "Bowling for Bianconero"

It is not even just that it is the fact that this "war" is occuring in almost thread i go to

It would be nice if you gusy could reduce your squibbles to just this thread as it does become oh so boring to read the same points everywhere
At least you can go off topic as much as you like on here and it should be okay

Comparing former gr8s on both teams and all that , it would be nice to confine that to this thread

So please gettttttttttttt reeeaaaaaaaaady to ruummmmbbbbbbble

 

[IncuboRossonero]

I have a bone to pick with Juventini because its very obvious no one here wants to admit to something: The Nedved incident with Maldini.
People (Juventini) actually believe Nedved was injured. The way he tumbled was so over acted and extreme it made Zambrotta's dive look real. He tumbled in a cart wheel like motion and the only contact besides PAOLO getting the ball was a small touch Paolo's leg had on Nedveds thigh during the "cartwheel". Problem is NeDDY clutched the OTHER LEG in pain! HORSESh*T!
Then showing his class and losing the respect of many he LOOKS BACK..sees the play moving forward and then puts his head back down. The way he feel and the motion he APPEARED TO hAVE fallen in suggested a serious injury or at least one that would enable him to play the rest of the match. He come back on the pitch immediately.
To this day Juventini's that I know are too biased and Blind to say he was faking and it was a plow to get the ball out of play.
I'm not saying he is less of a player or an attacker. Just admit it was a fake. Which leads to the IMPORTANT QUESTION:
WHY is JUVE so into DIVING? Players who never dove: Nedved and Zambrotta are suddendly taking the plunge that Del Piero and Inzaghi and Ravanelli made so famous. And why has Inzaghi abandoned that annoying habit with Milan? Yes he is still offside 10 times a game but the diving is almost non-existent. Is it something the team instills in their motor skills? Tell me what you want....but we all know that Diving is a part of that team.
by the way: I'll answer your PREDICTABLE QUESTIONS:
Rivaldo dove with Brazil..he has been with us one year and played his prime in other teams. That arguement and the Turkey-brazil incident is weak evidence.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

By the way...yes Van Der Sar was better than Buffon WAS Buffon to retire today. Unfortunately he is not. Also I think he is better than Dida because working with Montero and Ferrara he should get a Golden Ball on that alone. Imagine if he had Maldini-Nesta.

 

[gray]

We admit that Pavel dives sometimes, but I honestly think that it's because he has little choice a lot of the time. His style of play dictates that he runs at defenders, and since he's so damn good, a lot of the time there's 3-4 defenders marking him. When he sees that there's very few options remaining tactically, the best option is sometimes to draw a foul.

It's not honourable, but hey...that's what happens.

Players like Totti, on the other hand, act like they've been shot if they get brushed on the cheek.

You just named:

1 player who's dived once in his career

1 player who IMO has the best sportsmanship in the Italian game, and who once intentionally forfeited a penalty to the opposing keeper because it was won unfairly

1 player who now plays for Milan

1 player who played for Juve long long ago

1 player whose style of play leaves him with little choice but to hit the deck when under pressure from 4 defenders.


As for Inzaghi not diving as much as he did at Juve, I don't really watch Milan that much so i don't know very well. Perhaps it's got something to do with the way he plays at Milan...i dunno?

But please don't go and make provoking statements about Juve being a team of divers... you know you're just asking for an arguement.

I never made an arguement about Rivaldo, i simply posted a picture. I quoted your post saying "Nedved went down as if he'd been shot".... and i thought i'd remind you of a certain milan player (with whom it matters little whether you disown him or not)

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
By the way...yes Van Der Sar was better than Buffon WAS Buffon to retire today. Unfortunately he is not. Also I think he is better than Dida because working with Montero and Ferrara he should get a Golden Ball on that alone. Imagine if he had Maldini-Nesta.

I wouldn't be so much more secure with Maldini in my defence than I would Ferrara. Laugh if you will, but I mean it.

Montero, it's true that he's nowhere near as solid as he used to be, but then again Nesta's slightly overrated IMO. He makes clumsy tackles and is caught off-guard sometimes

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Ferrara? I would take Costacurta over Ferrara 7 days out of 7 and twice on Sundays..laugh at that.
Are you kidding Ferrara over Maldini? I can't even begin....and ... should I? If you really believe that.....

Any unbiased Juve fans out there? Ferrara over Maldini???????????

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Ok maybe you didn't say OVER Maldini but....Dude come on! Take your black-and-white goggles off