News that makes you say WTF! (61 Viewers)

[Ocelot]

Have you worked for a living yet? Serious question.

Was wondering when that question would pop up, took longer than I thought

To a degree yes, but not in the way you mean.


But that shouldn't matter. I get that thereare specific situations where it might acceptable for the business owner to "work the system" - just as there situations where stealing would be ethically acceptable. But both of us know that this isn't the case relevant to everythig connected to the Panama papers.

For some humans, in some contexts it might be "natural". But claiming that tax evasion is human nature ignores the multitude of practices that were much more the norm in other times or cultures than tax avoidance today and could've easily been described as "just being part of human nature".

Also, even if it would be human nature it wouldn't mean that it would be ethical automatically.

 

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[swag]

In the video but it said he sold his part to his wife, so off the video alone he seems ok. I know politicians are lowlives in general but working the system to lower your taxes is not a crime.

Yup.

 

[Seven]

It's doesn't really matter. But I've tried both. And neither times have I a single time speculated in avoiding paying my taxes.

Your idea that it's human nature to try and avoid paying taxes is absolutely absurd.

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But great to know that the lack of corruption in Scandinavia is down to our genes.

Scandi supremacy.

I haven't avoided taxes either. But there's definitely a point when I would. And even if I'd consider it wrong, the vast majority obviously does not or we'd simply make it illegal which it isn't.

Also as an employee tax avoidance / evasion are obviously far less of an issue.

Was wondering when that question would pop up, took longer than I thought

To a degree yes, but not in the way you mean.


But that shouldn't matter. I get that thereare specific situations where it might acceptable for the business owner to "work the system" - just as there situations where stealing would be ethically acceptable. But both of us know that this isn't the case relevant to everythig connected to the Panama papers.

For some humans, in some contexts it might be "natural". But claiming that tax evasion is human nature ignores the multitude of practices that were much more the norm in other times or cultures than tax avoidance today and could've easily been described as "just being part of human nature".

Also, even if it would be human nature it wouldn't mean that it would be ethical automatically.

Why is everyone in this thread suddenly Ned Flanders?

 

[Ocelot]

I haven't avoided taxes either. But there's definitely a point when I would. And even if I'd consider it wrong, the vast majority obviously does not or we'd simply make it illegal which it isn't.

Also as an employee tax avoidance / evasion are obviously far less of an issue.


Why is everyone in this thread suddenly Ned Flanders?

What? Did you forget what you wrote on the last page, the part from the wikipedia article?

"While tax avoidance may be considered legal, it is almost never considered moral in the court of public opinion. Many corporations and businesses which take part in the practice experience a backlash, either from their active customers or online"

The majority does consider tax avoidance immoral.

And I have no idea how you came up with the bolded part. There are plenty of things that are considered wrong but are legal - and some things not considered wrong by a majority but illegal. The process behind lawmaking is far more complicated than a majority polling.

I mean this case is actually a good example - tax evasion is illegal, and I'd strongly argue that tax avoidance is actually intended to be - the problem is that it is extremely difficult to cover all loopholes, especially with globalisation moving much faster than politics in virtually every matter. Tax avoidance is precisely the utilization of tax loopholes that weren't originally intended for the sole purpose of paying less taxes.

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Why is everyone in this thread suddenly Ned Flanders?

It's not about being Ned Flanders or the perfectly moral human being. Everyone does things that are considered immoral more or less regularly, but we should at least be aware that those things aren't really ethical.

 

[lgorTudor]

In the video but it said he sold his part to his wife, so off the video alone he seems ok. I know politicians are lowlives in general but working the system to lower your taxes is not a crime.

Prior to that he was supposed to declare his ownership of 50% and he didn't.

Secondly,even after 'selling' to his wife he retained power of attorney over that offshore company and kept it secret. Not sure if that's as illegal as the former thing but I suppose it is, considering for a politician in his position conflict of interests is a thing. As prime minister he definitely was involved in decisions that affect that company's value.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Prior to that he was supposed to declare his ownership of 50% and he didn't.

Secondly,even after 'selling' to his wife he retained power of attorney over that offshore company and kept it secret. Not sure if that's as illegal as the former thing but I suppose it is, considering for a politician in his position conflict of interests is a thing. As prime minister he definitely was involved in decisions that affect that company's value.

Fine you made me look into it and the first source confirms my suspicions
http://time.com/4280345/icelands-prime-minister-panama-papers/

Quit hating on successful people

 

[DAiDEViL]

who often are only successful because they are immoral scumbags in the first place.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

who often are only successful because they are immoral scumbags in the first place.

Thanks for proving my point

 

[Bjerknes]

I have and I am.

And I own an apartment.

I pay my taxes with pride and dignity, and I would never try to avoid paying my taxes.

So much for your "it's human nature", Freud.

Why don't you try to pay more then? If it helps your "pride and dignity", why not?

These people.

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And that's another thing. You don't really have a say in what your taxes are used for either. That is dependent upon who governs you. Sure, you can pay 60% in taxes, but that doesn't mean any of it will go to help the poor. So, the social justice warriors typically ask for higher taxes when at times it translates into fatter payouts for bureaucrats, useless programs based on rent seeking, or bombing little kids in Pakistan. Paying your "fair share" doesn't make you better than anybody else -- it just means you're inept at the tax code.

 

[DAiDEViL]

Thanks for proving my point

did i?
exploiting every loophole there is and living in legal grey areas. lovely people, also it's the only way to be successful.

@Maddy don't bother, taxes and americans is a lost case. they are unwilling to realise that everybody benefits from paying taxes. it's overrated, just like proper healthcare systems are.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

did i?
exploiting every loophole there is and living in legal grey areas. lovely people, also it's the only way to be successful.

Yes no successful person or one aspiring to be one will discount the journey to get there to some accounting maneuvering, to me it sounds more like an easy way out for not making it, also sounds pretty petty.

 

[Bjerknes]

did i?
exploiting every loophole there is and living in legal grey areas. lovely people, also it's the only way to be successful.

@Maddy don't bother, taxes and americans is a lost case. they are unwilling to realise that everybody benefits from paying taxes. it's overrated, just like proper healthcare systems are.

I pay federal taxes. How has it benefited me?

Not everyone who has wealth is a criminal in the system. That's just silly and probably speaks to jealously more than anything else.

 

[king Ale]

It's human nature..

It's still a weak argument no matter how many times you repeat it. There are many things that can be attributed to human nature but are not allowed, and rightly so (e.g., revenge).

Yes no successful person or one aspiring to be one will discount the journey to get there to some accounting maneuvering, to me it sounds more like an easy way out for not making it, also sounds pretty petty.

Finding loopholes in the laws (that are and will always be imperfect), when you are aware of the spirit of the law, knowing that what you do is not what's meant by the law but still exploiting its imperfections is unethical, jerkish, and petty.

 

[DAiDEViL]

Yes no successful person or one aspiring to be one will discount the journey to get there to some accounting maneuvering, to me it sounds more like an easy way out for not making it, also sounds pretty petty.

that's just not my idea of how it works. there are millions of people who "made it" (whatever that means), without exploiting loopholes, earn a lot of money and still pay their full taxes.

because believe it or not, there are actually people who have both, moral AND money.

 

[king Ale]

I pay federal taxes. How has it benefited me?

Not everyone who has wealth is a criminal in the system. That's just silly and probably speaks to jealously more than anything else.

Success is not a term defined in my dictionary by how much money i have, so no, it doesn't speak to jealousy for me.

Also, you need to understand that the fact that part of your tax money goes to starting wars and killing people should make you force your government to stop that, not encourage you to avoid taxes by "mastering" the tax code.

 

[swag]

Finding loopholes in the laws (that are and will always be imperfect), when you are aware of the spirit of the law, knowing that what you do is not what's meant by the law but still exploiting its imperfections is unethical, jerkish, and petty.

We live in a culture that worships tips, tricks, and hacks.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It's still a weak argument no matter how many times you repeat it. There are many things that can be attributed to human nature but are not allowed, and rightly so (e.g., revenge).



Finding loopholes in the laws (that are and will always be imperfect), when you are aware of the spirit of the law, knowing that what you do is not what's meant by the law but still exploiting its imperfections is unethical, jerkish, and petty.

What's the spirit of the law when it comes to taxes?

 

[Raz]

Yes, he didn't declare his interest in the company Wintris and he was bound by law to do so.

Furthermore I am amused that it's the journalists who lack integrity, not the tax evading head of government.

can't expect more from someone who's a die hard dictatorship fan.

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Success is not a term defined in my dictionary by how much money i have, so no, it doesn't speak to jealousy for me.

We live in a culture that worships tips, tricks, and hacks.

Sadly, yes.

 

[Seven]

that's just not my idea of how it works. there are millions of people who "made it" (whatever that means), without exploiting loopholes, earn a lot of money and still pay their full taxes.

because believe it or not, there are actually people who have both, moral AND money.

How many big businesses do not have their own tax lawyer?

What? Did you forget what you wrote on the last page, the part from the wikipedia article?


The majority does consider tax avoidance immoral.

And I have no idea how you came up with the bolded part. There are plenty of things that are considered wrong but are legal - and some things not considered wrong by a majority but illegal. The process behind lawmaking is far more complicated than a majority polling.

I mean this case is actually a good example - tax evasion is illegal, and I'd strongly argue that tax avoidance is actually intended to be - the problem is that it is extremely difficult to cover all loopholes, especially with globalisation moving much faster than politics in virtually every matter. Tax avoidance is precisely the utilization of tax loopholes that weren't originally intended for the sole purpose of paying less taxes.

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It's not about being Ned Flanders or the perfectly moral human being. Everyone does things that are considered immoral more or less regularly, but we should at least be aware that those things aren't really ethical.

The public opinion is the outrage after stuff like this happens. If the majority of people really felt this strongly about it, the law would change. Also, this isn't some loophole they just discovered. This is something that has been used for decades. At this point I say we have deliberately chosen not to make it illegal.

 

[Raz]

Because it serves those who are in charge, not because public think it's ok.

These letter box companies are of no use for majority of people.