'Murica! (86 Viewers)

[Maddy]

Really watch the video I posted. Americans are indeed optimistic about what they can achieve relative to what they actually end up achieving but upward mobility varies strikingly from one state to another, which is important when looking at such data that you posted. That aside, from a personal standpoint, I think it's better for a people to be optimistic than pessimistic about how much control they have over their life outcomes. I hope this teen aprropriate rephrasing of my post helped you understand what I said this time.

Thanks, but I'm doing just fine understanding you, sweet cheeks. Mind pointing out why this video was so darn important for me to watch? It's correlates mighty find with my political view on how to treat this matter; create opportunities, increase equality etc.

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Anyways, I'm with Hust. There's all the opportunity you could ever want in the States.

But you have just seen the video, didn't you?

There's clearly areas where there isn't that opportunity?

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Raj is agreeing with me, or rather I agree with him

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/04/21/science.aal4617.full

liek lel

We estimated rates of “absolute income mobility”—the fraction of children who earn more than their parents—by combining data from U.S. Census and Current Population Survey cross sections with panel data from de-identified tax records. We found that rates of absolute mobility have fallen from approximately 90% for children born in 1940 to 50% for children born in the 1980s. Increasing GDP growth rates alone cannot restore absolute mobility to the rates experienced by children born in the 1940s. However, distributing current GDP growth more equally across income groups as in the 1940 birth cohort would reverse more than 70% of the decline in mobility. These results imply that reviving the “American dream” of high rates of absolute mobility would require economic growth that is shared more broadly across the income distribution.

 

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[Post Ironic]

There's all the opportunity you could ever want in the States.

This is quite simply not true. Is there opportunity in the States? Of course. But as shown by all evidence upward social mobility is poor in the States, and getting worse, in the last 30-40 years.

It's as though you two are suggesting there are millions of unfilled middle class jobs just waiting to be filled by poor people if they would work harder, be more ambitious, more intelligent, take the right gamble, etc, etc, etc. Where are these jobs magically going to be appear from? Who is going to fill the minimum wage (~$7ish/hr) service industry type jobs? The $10-$15/hr manual labour jobs? Those are borderline poverty level wages. Or should those people have to work 16 hours a day to get ahead? Back to middle ages style labour rights?

What do people really expect though? Constant tax cuts, a skyrocketing income disparity gap. Consistent cuts to public education, social programs, and so on. Cuts to all the programs that allow the impoverished class to better themselves. Do you think most poor people are simply too lazy? That they are all offered a great education but misuse it, or turn it down? That inner-city schools are fantastic places of learning? That the poor get raised in great environments? They get taught proper life skills? Proper work ethic? That there are all sorts of fantastic and free social programs for them to take advantage of and through which to better themselves? Etc.

Hustini says his specific success could only happen in the United States. I guess I could say that only in civil war zones in Sub-Saharan Africa could one go from being an enslaved child soldier to being a UN Goodwill Ambassador, a successful Novelist, etc. There are instances of these things happening. Should we applaud such countries for providing such great opportunity, found nowhere else in the world? And extrapolate that all child soldiers should be able to escape their situation and become success stories?

I'm not even arguing that America is a shithole. I don't think this in the slightest. I've said so before. But to act like the American Dream is something amazing, untarnished, the same opportunities easily available of 40-50+ years ago, well, that's just naive. There is far better opportunity for climbing the class ladder in quite a number of other first-world countries. Maybe America should try to learn something from those examples.

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Never claimed I did.

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Thing is, we can write this over and over again, and we can deliver empirical evidence. It won't change a thing for Hustini. To him it's a fundamental question of belief. If he doesn't believe it, it doesn't exist. He isn't capable of removing himself from this, and with this stubborness begins a merry-go-round of derailing and fallacies.

He'll never admit to being wrong or just ignorant on the matter. Instead he'll either ignore or start the merry-go-round again.

I just don't get what the point of his arguing here is. No one is saying it's impossible to achieve the American Dream of rising up the class ladder with hard work. But it's incredibly obvious that it's getting more and more difficult for the bottom 20% to do this. Most studies show a big correlation between high socioeconomic inequality and low upward social mobility. The sad part is that US income inequality is fairly similar to other first world nations before taxes and transfers, but after such things are taken into account it's among the highest.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/112th-congress-2011-2012/reports/10-25-householdincome0.pdf

One only need look at the CBO report here, to see that top 1% of income earners went up 275% between 1979 and 2007, while bottom 20% of income earners went up 18% in that same time frame. The share of market income went from 50% to 60% for the top 20% and dropped in every other quintile in that 1979-2007 period. It's pretty obvious from this alone that it's much more difficult to achieve the American Dream now.

 

[Enron]

A Canadian agreeing with a European. What's new? That Climate Change is man made?? lel Don't you know we have other facts in 'Murica. Fox News told me :kellyanne:

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Ridicule aside. It's odd; if economic mobility and the middle class were decreasing in Denmark, I would be worried and looking for answers and solutions to this. I mean the greatest story of America is how it managed to create a large middle class with the best living conditions in the World, despite many of these folks coming from hardship (40s-70s). America without this mobility will create a profound basis for populism, racial and cultural clashes and segregation of groups.

Oh, wait.. Trump.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with our country. We accept cute stories, jobs reports, and wall street success as proof of the American Dream when in reality we should really be focusing on things that actually effect us. Like wages v cost of living. Wage increase over the span of a career. And so on and so forth. If you just compare average wages to average cost of living and watch trends from like 1980 to 2017, it's pretty obvious most of the country has their head in the sand.

 

[pitbull]

Hustini's anecdotal nonsense+red herrings+ad hominem is just a simple mind that can't handle the reality (why his mind isn't able to have already been explained).

Or you just can't handle him arguing his point, because you obviously want to argue a different one. And he does it quite well despite the numerous provocations and childish reactions.

my 2 cents. If American Dream is about achieving your highest aspirations and goals, I'd say neither for Europeans nor Americans it's possible to achieve that without some sort of luck and it's hard to argue where it's more possible. If it's about moving from lower class to middle class, the relatively young Europeans don't have to dream anything, the middle class jobs are there for the taking, if you're not a complete ass you don't even have to work particularly hard.

And I'd know, because I come from the bottom of Europe. The situation in America is a bit tragic as it's becoming harder and harder for them, but the one in Europe is not normal as well. I've tried and walked away from 3 completely different middle class jobs because I felt like something else would be more interesting for me, does that mean I've achieved the "Dream" 4 times already?

 

[Maddy]

Or you just can't handle him arguing his point, because you obviously want to argue a different one. And he does it quite well despite the numerous provocations and childish reactions.

my 2 cents. If American Dream is about achieving your highest aspirations and goals, I'd say neither for Europeans nor Americans it's possible to achieve that without some sort of luck and it's hard to argue where it's more possible. If it's about moving from lower class to middle class, the relatively young Europeans don't have to dream anything, the middle class jobs are there for the taking, if you're not a complete ass you don't even have to work particularly hard.

And I'd know, because I come from the bottom of Europe. The situation in America is a bit tragic as it's becoming harder and harder for them, but the one in Europe is not normal as well. I've tried and walked away from 3 completely different middle class jobs because I felt like something else would be more interesting for me, does that mean I've achieved the "Dream" 4 times already?

Sorry pitbull. But you are doing the exact same thing. I ain't gonna participate in a discussion based on anecdotal evidence and other fallacies.

You are more than welcome to argue against my arguments, but your cute story and 2 cents isn't worth anything in a general discussion; you are talking about your own country and using that as a general example for entire Europe - liek lel? Then you use yourself as an example - liek lel?

Find data that suggest I'm wrong, find experts and scientists that disagree, give me reasons to why the American dream isn't fading in America.

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Spoiler

This is quite simply not true. Is there opportunity in the States? Of course. But as shown by all evidence upward social mobility is poor in the States, and getting worse, in the last 30-40 years.

It's as though you two are suggesting there are millions of unfilled middle class jobs just waiting to be filled by poor people if they would work harder, be more ambitious, more intelligent, take the right gamble, etc, etc, etc. Where are these jobs magically going to be appear from? Who is going to fill the minimum wage (~$7ish/hr) service industry type jobs? The $10-$15/hr manual labour jobs? Those are borderline poverty level wages. Or should those people have to work 16 hours a day to get ahead? Back to middle ages style labour rights?

What do people really expect though? Constant tax cuts, a skyrocketing income disparity gap. Consistent cuts to public education, social programs, and so on. Cuts to all the programs that allow the impoverished class to better themselves. Do you think most poor people are simply too lazy? That they are all offered a great education but misuse it, or turn it down? That inner-city schools are fantastic places of learning? That the poor get raised in great environments? They get taught proper life skills? Proper work ethic? That there are all sorts of fantastic and free social programs for them to take advantage of and through which to better themselves? Etc.

Hustini says his specific success could only happen in the United States. I guess I could say that only in civil war zones in Sub-Saharan Africa could one go from being an enslaved child soldier to being a UN Goodwill Ambassador, a successful Novelist, etc. There are instances of these things happening. Should we applaud such countries for providing such great opportunity, found nowhere else in the world? And extrapolate that all child soldiers should be able to escape their situation and become success stories?

I'm not even arguing that America is a shithole. I don't think this in the slightest. I've said so before. But to act like the American Dream is something amazing, untarnished, the same opportunities easily available of 40-50+ years ago, well, that's just naive. There is far better opportunity for climbing the class ladder in quite a number of other first-world countries. Maybe America should try to learn something from those examples.

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I just don't get what the point of his arguing here is. No one is saying it's impossible to achieve the American Dream of rising up the class ladder with hard work. But it's incredibly obvious that it's getting more and more difficult for the bottom 20% to do this. Most studies show a big correlation between high socioeconomic inequality and low upward social mobility. The sad part is that US income inequality is fairly similar to other first world nations before taxes and transfers, but after such things are taken into account it's among the highest.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/112th-congress-2011-2012/reports/10-25-householdincome0.pdf

One only need look at the CBO report here, to see that top 1% of income earners went up 275% between 1979 and 2007, while bottom 20% of income earners went up 18% in that same time frame. The share of market income went from 50% to 60% for the top 20% and dropped in every other quintile in that 1979-2007 period. It's pretty obvious from this alone that it's much more difficult to achieve the American Dream now.

Great post.

I once remember someone claiming, there wasn't a poverty/homeless problem in America, 'cause he had seen plenty of poor people with an iPhone in and around Washington DC

 

[pitbull]

Sorry pitbull. But you are doing the exact same thing. I ain't gonna participate in a discussion based on anecdotal evidence and other fallacies.

You are more than welcome to argue against my arguments, but your cute story and 2 cents isn't worth anything in a general discussion; you are talking about your own country and using that as a general example for entire Europe - liek lel? That you use yourself as an example - liek lel?

Find data that suggest I'm wrong, find experts and scientists that disagree, give me reasons to why the American dream isn't fading in America.

no one disagrees, even Hustini doesn't, you just fail to see that the thing he's arguing (that the American Dream isn't completely dead) can be argued from personal point of view using anecdotal evidence. and it'd take a truly truly fucked up country to kill off any chance of social mobility, America's nowhere near that. you caring about America doesn't mean he should care about anywhere else in the world, so why would he care if Croatian dream is superior to American dream? it's stunning that you fail to see this and want to engage in a large, world-changing discussion while the other guy is talking about his backyard.

btw I'm not talking about my own country, ever heard about Schengen Area?

 

[Seven]

Really watch the video I posted. Americans are indeed optimistic about what they can achieve relative to what they actually end up achieving but upward mobility varies strikingly from one state to another, which is important when looking at such data that you posted. That aside, from a personal standpoint, I think it's better for a people to be optimistic than pessimistic about how much control they have over their life outcomes. I hope this teen aprropriate rephrasing of my post helped you understand what I said this time.

But I don't think anyone is really denying that a positive outlook is a good thing..

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[Seven]

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with our country. We accept cute stories, jobs reports, and wall street success as proof of the American Dream when in reality we should really be focusing on things that actually effect us. Like wages v cost of living. Wage increase over the span of a career. And so on and so forth. If you just compare average wages to average cost of living and watch trends from like 1980 to 2017, it's pretty obvious most of the country has their head in the sand.

What I find so odd about the US is that you have all sorts of lobbies arguing insane points. For example it's completely ridiculous to not even consider more gun control in a country that has so many shootings, yet after every shooting the same opinions are repeated over and over again, usually after first stressing that somehow it is not appropriate to change legislation after a traumatic fact.

Don't get me wrong, the same thing happens here too. But not to the same degree. It's a pretty massive, and quite frankly impressive, operation that some lobbies run in the US.

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[Seven]

I asked what YOUR opinion is, since you are defending conservative Christians here. I don't even know if you are Christian or not.
To me voting for someone who has no empathy for anybody except himself and his family is a big indicator that roughly 70% of them are hypocrites who are only Christian in name, hence my point.

The lack of empathy might be the true problem of our time. I notice it every single day. It's as if somewhere along the way some of us evolved and no longer have this capacity.

Just look at the responses of some EU politicians towards refugees...

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[Maddy]

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with our country. We accept cute stories, jobs reports, and wall street success as proof of the American Dream when in reality we should really be focusing on things that actually effect us. Like wages v cost of living. Wage increase over the span of a career. And so on and so forth. If you just compare average wages to average cost of living and watch trends from like 1980 to 2017, it's pretty obvious most of the country has their head in the sand.

How can you tackle a problem if you won't recognize it?

People are being led to believe by the Elite, Politicians and Wall Street that "If you work hard, you will succeed. That's the American Dream." (what they really are saying: if you work hard for me and make me rich, you might (but unliekly) become rich one day.)

It's smart. They remove any collective responsibility, which would make voters question the structures and design of the society, which instead keep a status quo or better for those at the top. Both parties in DC are part of this logic. If you don't succeed it's all on you; on the individual. So a poor kid growing up in a derelict area full of druggies and crime, with terrible schools and limited social workers, simply didn't work hard enough if that kid didn't climb the ladder.

The American Dream is based on a time where manual labour was abundant. These jobs are disappearing. To succeed you need an education [in general]. But in America there's extreme inequality in education, which means many don't get the opportunity no matter how hard they work.

 

[pitbull]

I asked what YOUR opinion is, since you are defending conservative Christians here. I don't even know if you are Christian or not.
To me voting for someone who has no empathy for anybody except himself and his family is a big indicator that roughly 70% of them are hypocrites who are only Christian in name, hence my point.

as a Christian myself I can confirm to you - every Christian is a Christian only in name, it's a religion that's defined by what you believe not what you do. sure, the former impacts the latter, but hey, they're people as well, there are tons of other great reasons to be good, but we all often fail. it's a common misconception, because this is different compared to most other big religions like Judaism, Hinduism and Islam.

 

[Maddy]

no one disagrees, even Hustini doesn't, you just fail to see that the thing he's arguing (that the American Dream isn't completely dead) can be argued from personal point of view using anecdotal evidence.

It can be used. But it's terrible for reasoning and providing evidence, and it's irrelevant when you discuss an idea, vision, economics, sociology, politology etc.

"The American Dream isn't a hoax 'cause I have achieved it" isn't an argument in a discussion regarding 'The American Dream'. It dilute's the discussion and makes it irrelevant to even discuss the matter, if anecdotal evidence is weighted.

btw. this thread is about America, not Hustinis personal achievement, so of course his achievements are irrelevant. Who the fuck cares what he is doing with his liefs.

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How fucken hard is it to understand?!

"This guy didn't make the american dream, therefore the american dream is dead."

It is the exact same argument as: "I made it, so the american dreaming isn't dead [fading]."

Both are terrible and useless.

 

[pitbull]

It can be used. But it's terrible for reasoning and providing evidence, and it's irrelevant when you discuss an idea, vision, economics, sociology, politology etc.

"The American Dream isn't a hoax 'cause I have achieved it" isn't an argument in a discussion regarding 'The American Dream'. It dilute's the discussion and makes it irrelevant to even discuss the matter, if anecdotal evidence is weighted.

btw. this thread is about America, not Hustinis personal achievement, so of course his achievements are irrelevant. Who the fuck cares what he is doing with his liefs.

Like that matters to anyone, different subjects get discussed all over the forum. and someone achieving his American Dream is a decent argument if a discussion is whether American Dream is still alive, because who else would witness it in real life if not Americans? apparently it is alive, at least in the part of the country he comes from. if Hustini tried to prove that America is the best country to achieve that dream, his argument would be silly, but he's been avoiding the large discussion and while doing so, he obviously has frustrated the shit out of you

btw what's with the inability to spell the simplest words, you turning into Zach or is it because of some medical condition?

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dead [fading]

there's a big difference

 

[Maddy]

Lol it isn’t a lie. People with rough upbringing in the states are perfectly capable of being successful and moving “up the ladder” if that’s what they want and are willing to do something about it.

You see it happen all the time. It’s entirely effort driven imo. You can’t only “want” to improve your situation but actually be willing to take a risk or two along the way. No one is Blamig poor people, not sure what moral high ground Seven is trying to climb. It’s unfortunate to be born in less than ideal situations. Sometimes a complete change in environment is needed.

Yeah..

 

[Hust]

Like that matters to anyone, different subjects get discussed all over the forum. and someone achieving his American Dream is a decent argument if a discussion is whether American Dream is still alive, because who else would witness it in real life if not Americans? apparently it is alive, at least in the part of the country he comes from. if Hustini tried to prove that America is the best country to achieve that dream, his argument would be silly, but he's been avoiding the large discussion and while doing so, he obviously has frustrated the shit out of you

btw what's with the inability to spell the simplest words, you turning into Zach or is it because of some medical condition?

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there's a big difference

 

[Seven]

Like that matters to anyone, different subjects get discussed all over the forum. and someone achieving his American Dream is a decent argument if a discussion is whether American Dream is still alive, because who else would witness it in real life if not Americans? apparently it is alive, at least in the part of the country he comes from. if Hustini tried to prove that America is the best country to achieve that dream, his argument would be silly, but he's been avoiding the large discussion and while doing so, he obviously has frustrated the shit out of you

btw what's with the inability to spell the simplest words, you turning into Zach or is it because of some medical condition?

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there's a big difference

No.

The American Dream is not just about one individual achieving something. It is far more than that. From Wikipedia:

The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, the set of ideals (democracy, rights, liberty, opportunity and equality) in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, as well as an upward social mobility for the family and children, achieved through hard work in a society with few barriers. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth.

The debate here isn't about Hustini's personal life. Not at all. It is about whether the US is still a society in which you can expect upward social mobility through hard work. And apparently, when we try to answer that question, this is something that is much easier in Western Europe.

 

[pitbull]

No.

The American Dream is not just about one individual achieving something. It is far more than that. From Wikipedia:

The debate here isn't about Hustini's personal life. Not at all. It is about whether the US is still a society in which you can expect upward social mobility through hard work. And apparently, when we try to answer that question, this is something that is much easier in Western Europe.

how can there be a debate when no one is arguing against the bolded?

 

[Seven]

how can there be a debate when no one is arguing against the bolded?

You can't say the American Dream is still alive and admit that upward social mobility in the US is poor. It can't be both.

 

[pitbull]

You can't say the American Dream is still alive and admit that upward social mobility in the US is poor. It can't be both.

it is alive in the sense that it's probably (and I don't know this, I'm neither American nor very interested in the subject) still possible to make your own destiny no matter the cave you come from, it's still in your own hands, it's just apparently harder to do than it was some time ago or than it is in other countries with more sensible governments.

 

[Ronn]

as a Christian myself I can confirm to you - every Christian is a Christian only in name, it's a religion that's defined by what you believe not what you do. sure, the former impacts the latter, but hey, they're people as well, there are tons of other great reasons to be good, but we all often fail. it's a common misconception, because this is different compared to most other big religions like Judaism, Hinduism and Islam.

I'm sorry but responding in usual religious vagueness doesn't cut it for me. If you are an evangelical "born again" Christian, but you still keep doing what a non-Christian person would do, then why even go through that experience?
We're not talking about one or two fallible people but 70% of a large group.