'Murica! (316 Viewers)

[Post Ironic]

I’m for a diplomatic solution aswel though, I don’t see any point in continuing this war for many years. I don’t think that the average European of American gives 2 cents about the Donbas region or Crimea.

So the average American/Western European should get to decide Ukraine’s future?

Afghanistan drove the Soviets out in the ‘80s. It took 9 years, but they did it. With the support of the West. This also played a part in the collapse of the USSR.

But you think Ukraine should be forced to give up large parts of their country to a far weaker Russia if they don’t take back all their territory in the next year? Good joke, bro.

 

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[U Picciriddu]

So the average American/Western European should get to decide Ukraine’s future?

Afghanistan drove the Soviets out in the ‘80s. It took 9 years, but they did it. With the support of the West. This also played a part in the collapse of the USSR.

But you think Ukraine should be forced to give up large parts of their country to a far weaker Russia if they don’t take back all their territory in the next year? Good joke, bro.

Since Ukraine is fully financed by the West, yes, sentiment of civilians obviously does matter because our tax money goes there. If it didn’t matter it wouldn’t be a topic during elections. If some big anti-war movement steps up obviously it can change the course of the aid packages.

If you’re up for a 10 year war there than let’s agree to disagree man. The Afghan/Sovjet war is a good example, Iraq and Afghanistan are more recent and hint to the opposite side. But good argument indeed.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Enron]

I’m for a diplomatic solution aswel though, I don’t see any point in continuing this war for many years. I don’t think that the average European of American gives 2 cents about the Donbas region or Crimea.

only Ukraine has the right to decide the outcome of this conflict

 

[Post Ironic]

Since Ukraine is fully financed by the West, yes, sentiment of civilians obviously does matter because our tax money goes there. If it didn’t matter it wouldn’t be a topic during elections. If some big anti-war movement steps up obviously it can change the course of the aid packages.

If you’re up for a 10 year war there then let’s agree to disagree man. The Afghan/Sovjet war is a good example, Iraq and Afghanistan are more recent and hint to the opposite side. But good argument indeed.

Iraq and recent Afghanistan are not good examples for your argument, dude. The US had boots on the ground in both those places as an occupying army after taking out autocratic governments and trying to prop up fledgling democracies. They were the Russia in those situations (ignoring the morality/ethics of the respective wars).

Ukraine is a war with no direct military involvement from the west. No troops on the ground, no planes in the sky, nothing. So I don’t see why you keep talking about being involved in a ten year war? The west is financially backing Ukraine by supplying arms for them to fight this war. If anything, your examples support my point. Afghanistan 1.0 and 2.0 ended with first the Soviets defeated, and then the West leaving. Iraq is a little more murky, but no one wants the US there anymore. Even North Vietnam defeated the US in the end with Soviet support.

Your “average” American that doesn’t want to continue backing Ukraine long term, is the Tucker Carlson, Trump supporting average, which isn’t the average at all in point of fact. So let’s not pretend that it is. There is currently no majority that is anti-supporting Ukraine. And even the GOP is split on the issue.

 

[U Picciriddu]

Iraq and recent Afghanistan are not good examples for your argument, dude. The US had boots on the ground in both those places as an occupying army after taking out autocratic governments and trying to prop up fledgling democracies. They were the Russia in those situations (ignoring the morality/ethics of the respective wars).

Ukraine is a war with no direct military involvement from the west. No troops on the ground, no planes in the sky, nothing. So I don’t see why you keep talking about being involved in a ten year war? The west is financially backing Ukraine by supplying arms for them to fight this war. If anything, your examples support my point. Afghanistan 1.0 and 2.0 ended with first the Soviets defeated, and then the West leaving. Iraq is a little more murky, but no one wants the US there anymore. Even North Vietnam defeated the US in the end with Soviet support.

Your “average” American that doesn’t want to continue backing Ukraine long term, is the Tucker Carlson, Trump supporting average, which isn’t the average at all in point of fact. So let’s not pretend that it is. There is currently no majority that is anti-supporting Ukraine. And even the GOP is split on the issue.

Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other wars are examples that they can drag on for many years with casualties going into the millions. And that in this hypothetical scenario where we discuss if losing those territories are worth a peace agreement. You also had the argument that the mujahideen needed 9 years to win the war, so we’re both in the same time frame with our arguments.

If anything you’re saying now that those life’s don’t matter because we’re only financially involved. I’d suggest a more humanistic approach, 350k dead or injured so far, multiply that by many more years and ask yourself if all those life’s are worth pieces of land where there’s been turmoil since 2014. Problems caused by the Russians of course

 

[Post Ironic]

Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other wars are examples that they can drag on for many years with casualties going into the millions. And that in this hypothetical scenario where we discuss if losing those territories are worth a peace agreement. You also had the argument that the mujahideen needed 9 years to win the war, so we’re both in the same time frame with our arguments.

If anything you’re saying now that those life’s don’t matter because we’re only financially involved. I’d suggest a more humanistic approach, 350k dead or injured so far, multiply that by many more years and ask yourself if all those life’s are worth pieces of land where there’s been turmoil since 2014. Problems caused by the Russians of course

That’s not at all what I’m saying. Nor is it entirely what you are saying as you were arguing that our taxpayer dollars are supporting Ukraine so we should get to decide on whether they have to cede land.

What I’m saying is that the Ukrainian people get to decide the price they are willing to pay to defend their nation and sovereignty. To take back the occupied parts of their country from Russia. And thus far the Ukrainian people, just like Afghanistan, Vietnam, and other occupied nations before them, are overwhelmingly in favour of doing whatever it takes to drive Russia out.

So what is your argument? That you know better than the people actually in Ukraine? That you get to decide the human cost is too much for them, regardless of what they want or are willing to do? Because no western nations are involved militarily or risking lives there. Should America and England have just negotiated a diplomatic solution with Nazi Germany in 1940 and let them keep most of Europe to stop the next 5 years of warfare? Warfare they were actually involved in at a vastly higher cost in lives and destruction.

Ukraine is asking for financial support and military arms to drive Russia out. Nothing more. Would be pretty sad if the west said no more and forced them to give up ~20% of their country to Russia.

 

[U Picciriddu]

That’s not at all what I’m saying. Nor is it entirely what you are saying as you were arguing that our taxpayer dollars are supporting Ukraine so we should get to decide on whether they have to cede land.

What I’m saying is that the Ukrainian people get to decide the price they are willing to pay to defend their nation and sovereignty. To take back the occupied parts of their country from Russia. And thus far the Ukrainian people, just like Afghanistan, Vietnam, and other occupied nations before them, are overwhelmingly in favour of doing whatever it takes to drive Russia out.

So what is your argument? That you know better than the people actually in Ukraine? That you get to decide the human cost is too much for them, regardless of what they want or are willing to do? Because no western nations are involved militarily or risking lives there. Should America and England have just negotiated a diplomatic solution with Nazi Germany in 1940 and let them keep most of Europe to stop the next 5 years of warfare? Warfare they were actually involved in at a vastly higher cost in lives and destruction.

Ukraine is asking for financial support and military arms to drive Russia out. Nothing more. Would be pretty sad if the west said no more and forced them to give up ~20% of their country to Russia.

Many of those things are interconnected. We live in democracies where the highest power simply is the vote of the people. Ukraine is supported by the West via tax payers money, therefore public opinion does matter. As said otherwise we wouldn’t see these rhetorics during elections which ultimately sparked this discussion.

If you look to it very black and white one might indeed suggest that it’s up to the Ukrainian people or Zelensky to decide when they want to stop the war, but that’s simply not entirely true, partially it is but since they’re supported by the West not entirely. We’re ignoring reality if we think that only Ukraine decides. I think that we all acknowledge that the next US president will have a huge saying in the war.

What I’ve said already a few times is that in this hypothetical situation, where a long war (ultimately we came up to 5 or even 10 years) isn’t worth all the life’s, and I wouldn’t be against a diplomatic solution, nor do I think that many Western people do have a particular interest in Crimea or the Donbas that they would oppose to it either. In fact it might even safe, in the most literal sense of the words, millions of life’s. But as I already said in the beginning, it’s very hard to put a time frame on it, because momentum shifts during the war, but I do think that the world should try to not make this a long war as we’ve seen in previous wars. And we now try this by aid put a point where the status quo will be reached isn’t unthinkable, and that’s where the diplomatic solution will come in. At least let’s hope that instead of continuing to push people into the meat grinder.

 

[X Æ A-12]

That’s not at all what I’m saying. Nor is it entirely what you are saying as you were arguing that our taxpayer dollars are supporting Ukraine so we should get to decide on whether they have to cede land.

What I’m saying is that the Ukrainian people get to decide the price they are willing to pay to defend their nation and sovereignty. To take back the occupied parts of their country from Russia. And thus far the Ukrainian people, just like Afghanistan, Vietnam, and other occupied nations before them, are overwhelmingly in favour of doing whatever it takes to drive Russia out.

So what is your argument? That you know better than the people actually in Ukraine? That you get to decide the human cost is too much for them, regardless of what they want or are willing to do? Because no western nations are involved militarily or risking lives there. Should America and England have just negotiated a diplomatic solution with Nazi Germany in 1940 and let them keep most of Europe to stop the next 5 years of warfare? Warfare they were actually involved in at a vastly higher cost in lives and destruction.

Ukraine is asking for financial support and military arms to drive Russia out. Nothing more. Would be pretty sad if the west said no more and forced them to give up ~20% of their country to Russia.

What is the human cost of continuing to fight for crimea, the donbas when russia views these as crucial to its longterm survival and wont be deterred by economic sanctions or loss of life. Does this drag on for years and cost in the six figures of lifes? Potentially a whole lot more if it seriously interrupts ukraine exporting grain to impoverished countries

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Russia has never withdrawn from a war until at least 2M of their soldiers were killed.

So yea, more dead Russians. Down for it.

 

[Post Ironic]

What is the human cost of continuing to fight for crimea, the donbas when russia views these as crucial to its longterm survival and wont be deterred by economic sanctions or loss of life. Does this drag on for years and cost in the six figures of lifes? Potentially a whole lot more if it seriously interrupts ukraine exporting grain to impoverished countries

Based on what? Putin’s words? They want Crimea and much of Ukraine so as to project power and reestablish a Greater Russian Empire. Ukraine and the Baltics are included in Putin’s vision. It’s not about long-term survival of the Russian state. It’s about imperialist ambitions and a restoration of Russia as a superpower.

Anyways, I’m all for supporting what the Ukrainian people want to do with regards to fighting for their own nation. And that’s not going to change.

We could have this discussion about any war in history. Should ‘murica have stayed isolationist in WWI? Should ‘murica have kept out of the European theatre in WWII and left Western Europe to the Nazis? The human cost of those wars continuing was tens and tens of millions in lives lost. Different circumstances obviously. But in the current case helping Ukraine as long as they desire it is my position.

 

[X Æ A-12]

Based on what? Putin’s words? They want Crimea and much of Ukraine so as to project power and reestablish a Greater Russian Empire. Ukraine and the Baltics are included in Putin’s vision. It’s not about long-term survival of the Russian state. It’s about imperialist ambitions and a restoration of Russia as a superpower.

Anyways, I’m all for supporting what the Ukrainian people want to do with regards to fighting for their own nation. And that’s not going to change.

We could have this discussion about any war in history. Should ‘murica have stayed isolationist in WWI? Should ‘murica have kept out of the European theatre in WWII and left Western Europe to the Nazis? The human cost of those wars continuing was tens and tens of millions in lives lost. Different circumstances obviously. But in the current case helping Ukraine as long as they desire it is my position.

Because Crimea is Russia's sole warm water port. Literally the only one

 

[Enron]

What is the human cost of continuing to fight for crimea, the donbas when russia views these as crucial to its longterm survival and wont be deterred by economic sanctions or loss of life. Does this drag on for years and cost in the six figures of lifes? Potentially a whole lot more if it seriously interrupts ukraine exporting grain to impoverished countries

i think people that have had their home invaded probably have a much different acceptable cost than you or I, so it’s kind of a pointless question

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Since Ukraine is fully financed by the West, yes, sentiment of civilians obviously does matter because our tax money goes there. If it didn’t matter it wouldn’t be a topic during elections. If some big anti-war movement steps up obviously it can change the course of the aid packages.

If you’re up for a 10 year war there than let’s agree to disagree man. The Afghan/Sovjet war is a good example, Iraq and Afghanistan are more recent and hint to the opposite side. But good argument indeed.

0.33% of GDP, it's almost inconsequential for us in the grand scheme of things.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

@Post Ironic look at the chart there of the breakdown, remember that discussion about loans where the evil US was doing this just to enslave Ukraine to 73848393 years of crushing debt?

 

[Wings]

I’m for a diplomatic solution aswel though, I don’t see any point in continuing this war for many years. I don’t think that the average European of American gives 2 cents about the Donbas region or Crimea.

Good luck implementing a diplomatic solution with a country that lies when they open their mouth. This 'diplomatic' solution is responsible for Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya and Ukraine (Crimea). They are also ransacking Africa. Fuck Russia and all their bullshit. Hopefully they collapse and never raise again. Fucking morons.

 

[Post Ironic]

0.33% of GDP, it's almost inconsequential for us in the grand scheme of things.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

@Post Ironic look at the chart there of the breakdown, remember that discussion about loans where the evil US was doing this just to enslave Ukraine to 73848393 years of crushing debt?

Who said that? I can’t remember now?

If you scroll down to the last chart, US is 12th in terms of Ukraine aid as a percentage of GDP.

- - - Updated - - -

Good luck implementing a diplomatic solution with a country that lies when they open their mouth. This 'diplomatic' solution is responsible for Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya and Ukraine (Crimea). They are also ransacking Africa. Fuck Russia and all their bullshit. Hopefully they collapse and never raise again. Fucking morons.

This. 100%

 

[Seven]

Good luck implementing a diplomatic solution with a country that lies when they open their mouth. This 'diplomatic' solution is responsible for Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya and Ukraine (Crimea). They are also ransacking Africa. Fuck Russia and all their bullshit. Hopefully they collapse and never raise again. Fucking morons.

Exactly.

I just don't see how this could be on the table.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6003 met Tapatalk

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Exactly.

I just don't see how this could be on the table.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6003 met Tapatalk

But then would you protest when CIA helps topple a regime that's in cahoots with the ruskies?

 

[Enron]

But then would you protest when CIA helps topple a regime that's in cahoots with the ruskies?

No because ruskies where once commies and the only good communist is a dead communist

 

[Ronn]

0.33% of GDP, it's almost inconsequential for us in the grand scheme of things.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

@Post Ironic look at the chart there of the breakdown, remember that discussion about loans where the evil US was doing this just to enslave Ukraine to 73848393 years of crushing debt?

0.33% of GDP is nearly 2% of the budget. I don’t understand why GDP is the denominator.
It’s somewhat comparable to the total amount federal government spends on, say, housing.