Mike Brown/Ferguson riots (10 Viewers)

[Ocelot]

That's due process by a grand jury though. I think people have a huge mental gap between perceived injustice and just what "burden of proof", "innocent until proven guilty", and "tried by a jury of your peers" means unless they actually go beyond the superficial.

To indict someone based on a mob will is also called "lynching".

That of course is true, and as I have already pointed out I actually liked the decision of the grand jury in the case of Mike Brown.
However, the failure to indict in this case can (as always) basically only be due to two reasons:
1. The grand jury ruled against the laws. This could then either be just a singular occurence, or a symptomatic example for different, much more lenient standards being applied systematically to police officers.
2. The decision of the grand jury was correct from a jurisdictional point of view. This would mean that the way the police officers went about in the arrest of Eric Garner was completely legal, so undoubtedly legal even that not even an indictment is of order. In my eyes, this would be much worse, as such behaviour and actions of police officers should without any doubt not be allowed in any progressive, democratic state that wishes to uphold human rights.

 

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[swag]

The thing that troubles me about the grand jury is that they were treated differently than the norm in this situation -- i.e., allowing the defendant to speak (for 4 hours), and not having specific charges being brought against him. That's not a guarantee that those decisions were meant to tilt justice in the favor of the cop... it's also quite possible that it could have been an appeasement effort to let the public know they were taking this more seriously than your typical case.

But either way, that it wasn't treated as a "typical" case is everything that's dubious about it. This is precisely why things like indicting without the normal due process is bad. if justice bends, one way or the other in whatever's supposed favor, it brings the process into question and fails at its mission.

Which is all the more reason that if failed the indictment litmus test: game over. That is the standard.

EDIT/UPDATE:

Oops, just realized you were talking about the whole Eric Garner thing, not the Mike Brown thing.

 

[Bjerknes]

Ot, but @Bjerkness will live this.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2014/dec/04/-sp-case-against-human-rights

That is definitely an interesting article, and I agree with some of it. Of course it was a poor idea to force other cultures to change any part of their traditions or belief system. But handing out aid to foreign governments usually means politicians skim off some percentage of the funds for themselves, or only provide them to their constituents. There is really no way to control that other than creating some type of market for it, which is practically impossible. Then look at the case of Israel – we provide them all sorts of aid, yet they undermine our nation by spying on us and funding groups that oppose us. That’s why I say stop all foreign aid and bring back the troops. We have plenty of energy resources through shale and nearby fields in Canada we can work with. Nobody needs no stinkin’ Saudis.

The fact of the matter is, it’s up to the people of third world nations to change the current circumstance, whatever it may be. The same can be said about segments of the population in US cities. The government will not save you, the police have no duty to save you, and the Al Sharpton clan have no reason to save you, so the solution is to rely on yourself to make the most of your own world. This means developing your local economy, buying and selling local, starting your own business, educating yourself, not relying on anybody else but yourself. That's what the Turd Fergusons out there need to realize.

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Yeah, that's what makes it messed up.



That's not how I look at it. That jury could've easily been coerced into not voting for a trial by the cops. What I saw from the video was a police officer chokeholding a person. That's illegal and a fact. A jury doesn't change either of those.

The Trayvon Martin case was different because there was no video of the act.

This is so much different than Trayvon and also Ferguson. There was substantial evidence those two thugs attacked folks, while Garner was just standing there selling cigs and the death was caught on tape.

To me, it's clear the officer used excessive force since the guy wasn't attacking anybody. That is a tragedy, not Ferguson.

 

[Fr3sh]

Continents collide, oceans divide, mountains rise and fall to the bottom of the sea. Anyone who claims any patch of land as their heritage is a myopic liar and a fool.

You are 95% right. I claim my patch of land and due to my ancestry and there is no what if and buts. I know where my roots are from, and I know the condition of the land of my ancestors. as a Somali, mother's qabil (tribe) is from Ogaden (in modern ethiopia shit belongs to Somalia though) father is a majerteen ( they fought with italians ), my main concern is for Africa to heal.

And my opinion in all of this race tension in the states, Europe and all them other retarded places, is that they're all fucking fiends that are only interested in their own agenda and their own wallets. They have absolutely no interest for the people nor the masses. For fuck sakes even first world countries feed their people plastic, litereally plastic!!! Genetically modified crap, and they ask themselves were them weird cancers are coming from. They drug you, then they sell you a watered down potion for a ridiculous price.

The masses, need to put all these meaningless differences aside and see that us as whole, us human beings, we are being shafted by our own and we need to take matters into our own hands.

For exemple, right now, things are calming down in Somalia, the African Union has made several attempts to neutralize the situation, in order for a government to be put into place. Since 91/92 America, nor Europe has lifted a finger for Somalia, nor has that disgusting filth of Arab League (don't even understand why Somalia assosiates themselves with these fucks ) done fuck all. Now that a government is being put into place, you see the likes of the Americans and Brits coming down and trying to put into effect old oil contracts made by Siad Barre (a piece of shit war lord who sold a shit ton of rights for weapons), and the "Somali government" is cooperating WTF!!!!!! Anyways, with a healed Africa, South America, Asia that is has rid itself of these diseases would be do us and our future generations a lot of good.

So what are we dreaming? or at least my biggest dream? would be to close borders where they come from and let the army regroup and send back to the nearest african coast.
If you wanna help someone help them there and maybe the world should stop to rob Africa of everything it owns and put disorder all around to make it easier.

So pls keep your melting pot for you, we were happy before that crap about massive immigration. Rest are just words that's the truth we're seeing infront of us. Philosophy is great when you have nothing else to do but problems ain't getting solved with it

I'm holding back my tongue like it's not even funny. You know I was born in your country. I was born in Pisa, Italy. On a fucking chair!! Motherfucker took away my right arm, I got a birth injury and can hardly use my right. (My left is mean though watch out!!)
My grandfather on my father's side fought for the Italians in Somalia, he was a general. My father got an italian education and went to university in Pisa, got his undergrad and masters, was sweeping floors
On my mother's side, oh lawd did they hate your people I kinda do to, a lot of times it takes a very conscious effort to not hate italians, there are times where I want your weak puny, insignificant country to just disapear. My maternal grandmother used to talk to me about how your elders were plotting and scheming for and Somalia/Ethiopia without Ethiopians. They had plans, and sold pieces of lands.
They poisoned the waters, fields, killed the animals, this is terrorism, this is real terrorism. There were droughts for years!!! What do you think caused these famines in Somalia and in Ethiopia? These fuckers couldn't fight head on so they poison us.

I too want the borders closed. I don't want guns to come in to my country, I don't want grenades to be sold to fishermen, I don't want to see them foreign boats on Somali seas, get the fuck out!!! Between Africa and Italy, ya best believe it's Italy and the rest of Europe that needs Africa. Now shove that sticking filthy boot of yours up your ass.

 

[swag]

You are 95% right. I claim my patch of land and due to my ancestry and there is no what if and buts.

Be careful with that 5%. Every family tree has a strain of foreign warlord, white devil, black devil, and Bolivian maid in it. And if you start going down the lines of racial purity, we're in even deeper doo doo.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Need dem Bolivian maids for genetic diversity. A lack of, and we have a bunch of Claudios (ILFJ) running the world

 

[Fr3sh]

Be careful with that 5%. Every family tree has a strain of foreign warlord, white devil, black devil, and Bolivian maid in it. And if you start going down the lines of racial purity, we're in even deeper doo doo.

We had Siad Barre in ours

With that 5% meant you are right that nobody can claim fuck all for land, specially when exclusively theirs. People move, people pass on, people come, time moves on. However, I retracted that 5% due to the current situation in East Africa, as an East African it's my responsability to take part of the upliftment of that area of the world. Same way it would be RUS' responsability to uplift and contribute in Russia's development. That's why I retracted 5%, a lot of time, people say claim this or that is theirs, but once it's knees deep in shit, no one wants to associate it with themselves. You'd be surprised of the amount of Somali's I run into that lie about their heritage, because the load is heavy.

 

[Martin]

shit got real

 

[Fr3sh]

shit got real

Anyways, these things get oversimplified way to much. These things happening in the states retarded, these murders are retarded, the public reaction is retarded, the media is being retarded, people are having retarded opinions on baseless facts then in turn accumulating the amount of bullshit. If you wanna fix something you gotta get to the root of it. Marcus Garvey tried. Why don't the states try to help Sierra Leone and Liberia, states of ex-african slaves, like they've helped the Japanese rebuild itself? Bet you wouldn't have as much dumbasses (even though 90% of that is because of your horrible education system).

The answer is they eat of this shit man. They make serious money of issues like these. It generates retarded money on so many sectors, that's why shit will never get fixed in the states, people don't want to.

 

[swag]

We had Siad Barre in ours

With that 5% meant you are right that nobody can claim fuck all for land, specially when exclusively theirs. People move, people pass on, people come, time moves on. However, I retracted that 5% due to the current situation in East Africa, as an East African it's my responsability to take part of the upliftment of that area of the world. Same way it would be RUS' responsability to uplift and contribute in Russia's development. That's why I retracted 5%, a lot of time, people say claim this or that is theirs, but once it's knees deep in shit, no one wants to associate it with themselves. You'd be surprised of the amount of Somali's I run into that lie about their heritage, because the load is heavy.

Said Barre... yowza.

I think it's cool though that people want to go back and improve where they feel their roots are from. Especially those places that have suffered a lot. Detroit is one of those places. East Palo Alto here in Cali is one of those places. Not everyone should feel obligated of course, but it's good to have others looking out for things more.

As for self-interest, it's always about that. You could say much of what constitutes racism originates from a world that no longer exists anymore since the advent of immigration, globalisation, and international trade: people whose minds and experiences are limited to the time where their neighborhoods were the whole universe and nothing ever got in or out.

 

[Martin]

Said Barre... yowza.

I think it's cool though that people want to go back and improve where they feel their roots are from. Especially those places that have suffered a lot. Detroit is one of those places. East Palo Alto here in Cali is one of those places. Not everyone should feel obligated of course, but it's good to have others looking out for things more.

As for self-interest, it's always about that. You could say much of what constitutes racism originates from a world that no longer exists anymore since the advent of immigration, globalisation, and international trade: people whose minds and experiences are limited to the time where their neighborhoods were the whole universe and nothing ever got in or out.

so where you from, greg?

 

[Fr3sh]

Said Barre... yowza.

I think it's cool though that people want to go back and improve where they feel their roots are from. Especially those places that have suffered a lot. Detroit is one of those places. East Palo Alto here in Cali is one of those places. Not everyone should feel obligated of course, but it's good to have others looking out for things more.

As for self-interest, it's always about that. You could say much of what constitutes racism originates from a world that no longer exists anymore since the advent of immigration, globalisation, and international trade: people whose minds and experiences are limited to the time where their neighborhoods were the whole universe and nothing ever got in or out.

East Africa isn't exactly like Detroit or Palo Alto, it's more then just a couple of decades of hardships. It's decades of civil war, years of famine, century of colonial inteference, centuries of tribal war, and on top of that it shows it on your face when you're from that area. Forget what you feel another east african will recognize you, it's your responsability, it's your goddamn duty! Anyways that's how I feel about it, and I feel very strongly about it. Somali's have been fiery to pick up arms and what not, but now we got to pick up that sticks and stones and makes something, I'm tired, and I don't want to part take in the building of a state (Canada) that eats off of mine.

 

[Martin]

what is your plan?

 

[Fr3sh]

what is your plan?

Now things get complicated.

First thing first, finish my degree.
Pay off debt.
Teach abroad, preferably in Africa.

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In fact I believe simply living there and contributing in an African economy is already a big step.

 

[Ocelot]

The fact of the matter is, it’s up to the people of third world nations to change the current circumstance, whatever it may be. The same can be said about segments of the population in US cities. The government will not save you, the police have no duty to save you, and the Al Sharpton clan have no reason to save you, so the solution is to rely on yourself to make the most of your own world. This means developing your local economy, buying and selling local, starting your own business, educating yourself, not relying on anybody else but yourself. That's what the Turd Fergusons out there need to realize.

That would actually work, in a parallel world where people enjoy equal opportunities independent of the environment they are born into. In the real world however, and especially in a societies as inegaliterian as modern-day USA (not to speak of global disparities and multinational exploitation of third world states), this argument is either cynical or simply ignorant, and quite frankly the reason why economic liberalism cannot be taken seriously.

If a society doesn't want to completely abolish free-market systems or private families and childraising, which I'm just going to assume you don't, redistributional systems instituted by public institutions are the only way to avoid the quasi-infinite accumulation of immense economic and, as a consequence, social disparities. Of course, such redestributional systems don't only include welfare programs and the like, but more importantly free and quality education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc, etc.

This is so much different than Trayvon and also Ferguson. There was substantial evidence those two thugs attacked folks, while Garner was just standing there selling cigs and the death was caught on tape.

To me, it's clear the officer used excessive force since the guy wasn't attacking anybody. That is a tragedy, not Ferguson.

Hey, we agree on something

 

[Bjerknes]

That would actually work, in a parallel world where people enjoy equal opportunities independent of the environment they are born into. In the real world however, and especially in a societies as inegaliterian as modern-day USA (not to speak of global disparities and multinational exploitation of third world states), this argument is either cynical or simply ignorant, and quite frankly the reason why economic liberalism cannot be taken seriously.

If a society doesn't want to completely abolish free-market systems or private families and childraising, which I'm just going to assume you don't, redistributional systems instituted by public institutions are the only way to avoid the quasi-infinite accumulation of immense economic and, as a consequence, social disparities. Of course, such redestributional systems don't only include welfare programs and the like, but more importantly free and quality education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc, etc.

I disagree. The US has a plethora of social programs, anything from essentially handouts of now electronic food stamps and unemployment benefits, to free education incentives through Pell Grants and Affirmative Action programs. These programs have been around for decades and have been increased under Obama's administration, yet the income gap between the poor and rich continues to increase despite all the supposed focus on the poor and minority groups from the Democrats. Yet here we are, nothing has really changed and folks still think these programs work. Wrong -- they don't, and you won't change anything until you get rid of the Federal Reserve.

The real utopian society folks are those who trust in government. Governments have killed the most people out of any group in history and there is no oversight of governments -- meaning they can steal as much money from the people as they want. Thinking they are the end-all, be-all of society while stomping on the individual is complete insanity. Limited government is key.

 

[Ocelot]

I disagree. The US has a plethora of social programs, anything from essentially handouts of now electronic food stamps and unemployment benefits, to free education incentives through Pell Grants and Affirmative Action programs. These programs have been around for decades and have been increased under Obama's administration, yet the income gap between the poor and rich continues to increase despite all the supposed focus on the poor and minority groups from the Democrats. Yet here we are, nothing has really changed and folks still think these programs work. Wrong -- they don't, and you won't change anything until you get rid of the Federal Reserve.

The real utopian society folks are those who trust in government. Governments have killed the most people out of any group in history and there is no oversight of governments -- meaning they can steal as much money from the people as they want. Thinking they are the end-all, be-all of society while stomping on the individual is complete insanity. Limited government is key.

I didn't mean to back Obama or the Democratic party - although I guess there somewhat better than the alternative -, there can be no question that they're as much in the pocket of the financial lobbyists as everyone else.
Also, the fact that the US-American public system is deeply flawed does in no way mean that governments in general are. The not-at-all progressive system of taxation, as well as the absence of virtually any effective form of taxes on capital or gain thereof is one major reason, but not the only one. Specific welfare programs can of course also be questioned, but judging from both unanimous historical evidence as well as simple logic, it is rather clear that in a completely "free" market system without public redistribution, extreme extents of inequality are inevitable. The policy of the FED as well as the already mentioned heavy influence of the big business and banking lobby on the legislative process are actually very clear and worrying symptoms of a society where conditions have become so unequal, that the power of the wealthy is large enough to dictate politics.

Philantropy as well as religous charitable institutions and the like may do some good in relieving some of inequality, but current figures as well as historical perspective very clearly suggests that only governments are able to keep it within an acceptable boundary. That is of course ignoring violent revolutions, which are basically the logical conclusion of extreme inequality, and inflict all kind of harm on every segment of the society, at least in the short term. The increase in crime and the riots and social unrests experienced in Ferguson, London and Greece among others represent in a way the very early stages of this.

 

[.zero]

what is your plan?

Straight to the point.

I like your style cowboy

 

[GordoDeCentral]

That is definitely an interesting article, and I agree with some of it. Of course it was a poor idea to force other cultures to change any part of their traditions or belief system. But handing out aid to foreign governments usually means politicians skim off some percentage of the funds for themselves, or only provide them to their constituents. There is really no way to control that other than creating some type of market for it, which is practically impossible. Then look at the case of Israel – we provide them all sorts of aid, yet they undermine our nation by spying on us and funding groups that oppose us. That’s why I say stop all foreign aid and bring back the troops. We have plenty of energy resources through shale and nearby fields in Canada we can work with. Nobody needs no stinkin’ Saudis.

The fact of the matter is, it’s up to the people of third world nations to change the current circumstance, whatever it may be. The same can be said about segments of the population in US cities. The government will not save you, the police have no duty to save you, and the Al Sharpton clan have no reason to save you, so the solution is to rely on yourself to make the most of your own world. This means developing your local economy, buying and selling local, starting your own business, educating yourself, not relying on anybody else but yourself. That's what the Turd Fergusons out there need to realize.

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This is so much different than Trayvon and also Ferguson. There was substantial evidence those two thugs attacked folks, while Garner was just standing there selling cigs and the death was caught on tape.

To me, it's clear the officer used excessive force since the guy wasn't attacking anybody. That is a tragedy, not Ferguson.

you touched on a great point imo nationalism/cultural identity is dead and obsolete, those who resist and refuse to accept this are the ones struggling. We are the culmination of existentialist dogma.

 

[j0ker]

Now this Eric Garner stuff is something I can understand people getting angry at. Not violent of course.