Massimiliano Allegri (231 Viewers)

[baggio]

Don't "fix things" for me, thanks.

Thanks for saving me the time.

You've made it pretty clear over several years that you don't like the management, despite our success, so I feel I'm wasting my time to discuss that aspect in any detail. In fact it seems something of a goal to spam every thread with this negativity when things aren't going well. You were right, well done for now. Now you don't like the coach. But really it's a mixture of things. No one is going to deny mistakes, unless the club is winning every season there is always scope to apportion blame and all the rest, but I've never really been all that interested in spending time doing that. Been watching football far too long. I know that the squad we've assembled is better than it is placed, but it's up to the players to prove it.

I'm kind of going to say this not just for your benefit, but also for those who think or feel this way. This is a forum. Every poster here, has every right to analyse, criticise, praise and talk about how they feel about the club and its actions. Just because they may differ from those who are just as stubborn in their own views, as they claim others to be, doesn't qualify or disregard opinions as spam.

Coming to the management and coach: don't see what point you're trying to drive home here, but it seems to me like i have been waiting for them to fail miserably. You couldn't be further from the truth. What i think about their style and approach has nothing to do with how i judge their work. That happens purely on merit. When Beppe does his job, he is praised for it, when he doesn't he is entitled to the criticism he receives from me or anybody else. I was thoroughly against the Vidal sale, but even after that I was in that very thread giving Beppe the benefit of the doubt till he made his final moves. You talk about nobody denying the mistakes but directly fail to read that a lot of these counter arguments 'against the management' come up against posts where the management are kept up on a pedestal. 'Now you don't like the coach.' Only you know how you arrived at that. Either you haven't been reading my posts or jumping to conclusions, leave you to figure that one out.

One thing you can put down to the coach and remove from the management is what appears to be a lack of hunger in our play. Something you can put down to complacency, and maybe some of the new players haven't yet understood that they couldn't just sign for Juventus and win a scudetto, as seemed likely on the outside. So we've dug ourselves into a hole and now find ourselves under pressure in every game. That's something we've not experienced for four seasons.

Enough with the fatalist attitude, this isn't Juventus of last year and was never going to be.

Lack of motivation would be one of the definite deterrents of a title winning team. Ive mentioned that in the past, not just this season, but even when Conte was around. That would be something that would plague us at some point, sure. But that apart the club was also set up nicely this season to make that leap into a top 5-7 European contender. But chose the easy way out and tried to carry out the tried and tested opportunity formula. I would imagine the gap between last year's Juventus and this one, may not have necessarily have to be as big it currently is, standings apart. No matter how you may choose to look at it, as an apologist or not, it is not justified.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[JuveJay]

The two big issues for me were the Vidal situation, which wasn't planned for and almost impossible to directly replace, and what I consider the big farce of the summer which is Hernanes, or what certainly seems like it thus far. Because he isn't shaping up to be the AM Allegri was basing his system on. But in the end we can only speculate who had the technical say.

Cuadrado is something or nothing, a wild card who tore up Serie A in his last year, it's easy to see why he was taken on loan. Dybala the prodigious talent, Mandzukic the battering ram with his record, Morata still there and adding Zaza as sub. I didn't have a problem with that at the time, but it's easy to pick it apart now. Khedira if fit with Marchisio DM. Yeah it looks fine on paper, but losing Vidal and Tevez hurts anyone.

Anyway we're just going over the same shit. It's up to the coach and this group to improve our standing, we're good enough.

- - - Updated - - -

Apologist, we have a winner.

 

[baggio]

The two big issues for me were the Vidal situation, which wasn't planned for and almost impossible to directly replace, and what I consider the big farce of the summer which is Hernanes, or what certainly seems like it thus far. Because he isn't shaping up to be the AM Allegri was basing his system on. But in the end we can only speculate who had the technical say.

Cuadrado is something or nothing, a wild card who tore up Serie A in his last year, it's easy to see why he was taken on loan. Dybala the prodigious talent, Mandzukic the battering ram with his record, Morata still there and adding Zaza as sub. I didn't have a problem with that at the time, but it's easy to pick it apart now. Khedira if fit with Marchisio DM. Yeah it looks fine on paper, but losing Vidal and Tevez hurts anyone.

Anyway we're just going over the same shit. It's up to the coach and this group to improve our standing, we're good enough.

Don't look at the signings as individuals. When you take a macro view of our dealings, it doesn't look like we were going in any one direction in terms of intent. As for better results and an improved showing in the standings, the quality of the group is not the only thing to be considered here. Its also how available players slot into the coach's vision, how hungry they are, how they can cut it at the top of the heap and just as importantly how they cope with the pressure on themselves and at the club. Too many variables that one has to hope come together to deliver a finish everybody wants.

- - - Updated - - -

It was assembled without a mind.

You could make a case for it.

 

[alexjuventino]

Have a read again.

The reality is that we are in this situation after a poor start and it will be difficult. We can aim for what we want but football isn't a constant, funnily enough other teams have ambitions too. Napoli, Inter, Roma, Fiorentina, they all think they can win the scudetto now. At the start of the season they might have hoped, just as we now hope. That is adjusting and working to your situation.

Or we can spend a lot of time stood still and finger pointing as the others sail off into the distance, giving up like the other $#@! teams in the league because the going is tough. That's not what this club is about. Third place minimum is the worst case scenario to salvage a season financially because of the money the CL brings, but that doesn't mean that we are content with third place. Juventus never is.

But separate reality from desire, because the reality is that no club wins the scudetto every season. Our current squad was assembled with mid-long term in mind, whilst not giving up short term aspirations, only concessions for what is new and lost.

I wish I had your patience.

 

[Raz]

You could make a case for it.

No you couldn't, only a moron would try to make a case for it. You can dislike the decisions made doesn't mean they just threw random shit out there and didn't think about it at all.

 

[bongraider]

So that's why we sold coman

Lol we sold coman because i think he expected a treq would arrive. Then beppe effs it all up. So now we have the 433 that everyone half hates half loves because were putting morata on the left where hes useless and we get to play two of the three at least together

 

[baggio]

No you couldn't, only a moron would try to make a case for it. You can dislike the decisions made doesn't mean they just threw random shit out there and didn't think about it at all.

Spin it how how you will, we didn't have clarity in our mercato movements this summer. Definitely a random mercato for a supposed big club.

 

[Raz]

Spin it how how you will, we didn't have clarity in our mercato movements this summer. Definitely a random mercato for a supposed big club.

I'm not spinning it anyway, not saying it was a good summer, or trying to defend management. I'm just saying it takes something special to think that people running one of the biggest football brands in the world threw random papers to pick names and costs.

That statement is saying something more about you then the actual management.

 

[JuveJay]

We still have the strongest squad in the league and it's up to Allegri to utilise it. When it is mostly available, that is. He doesn't have the guarantee of Tevez to fall back on. A player that would probably see us still top of the league or thereabouts this season. Or the defensive grit that Vidal brings, even without his "A" game. So he's hindered there with something only €100m could fix, but we made our choices to replace them and didn't do it man-for-man. Now the players have to do it.

 

[Klin]

If Allegri manages to get us a 3rd place finish in Serie A, does that give Beppe a clean slate for next Summer?

 

[dolph]

If Allegri manages to get us a 3rd place finish in Serie A, does that give Beppe a clean slate for next Summer?

For me next summer will be crucial for Beppe. He has to show that he can bring in WC players, players that fit into the scheme and that the coach is asking for. Him making a couple of good opportunity signings wont cut it anymore. If he does not deliver or we will have another Draxler/ Aguero/ Van Persie/ Sanchez/ Suarez all summer long sagas I will loose my mind and jump on the fire Beppe band wagon.

 

[baggio]

I'm not spinning it anyway, not saying it was a good summer, or trying to defend management. I'm just saying it takes something special to think that people running one of the biggest football brands in the world threw random papers to pick names and costs.

That statement is saying something more about you then the actual management.

A good summer or a bad summer is subjective. It was not an effective summer. And i stand by the fact that it was one that lacked a bit of planning. We bought Zaza, only to want to sell him to West Ham one day and then hold him back the next. We loaned Cuadrado, only to then go ahead and sell/loan Coman (the only other natural winger on the squad). We then had Siqueira all but wrapped up, with an agreement with Athletico and the player too, only to drop him and move back for Alex Sandro, who incidentally was a target who we dropped before intensifying talks with Siqueira. And finally, we undersold Vidal, without really looking out to replace him, failed in our move for Draxler or any other AM of starting quality, and panicked eventually to settle for Hernanes. That does not strike me as a well planned mercato. And it certainly doesn't strike me as the kind of off season a CL finalist would or should have. We had a fantastic springboard to really make a substantial leap in quality for the team and squad and we failed.

For me next summer will be crucial for Beppe. He has to show that he can bring in WC players, players that fit into the scheme and that the coach is asking for. Him making a couple of good opportunity signings wont cut it anymore. If he does not deliver or we will have another Draxler/ Aguero/ Van Persie/ Sanchez/ Suarez all summer long sagas I will loose my mind and jump on the fire Beppe band wagon.

That ship has sailed IMO. It's not about firing Beppe, but that next season argument actually held true for this past mercato, and he didn't deliver. At no point, did anybody here think that we would be signing 10 new players instead of the 2-3 quality ones that would've allowed us to make the process of change more gradual and less all over the place. Especially after an almost treble winning season. We tried to do much too quickly.

 

[JuveJay]

A good summer or a bad summer is subjective. It was not an effective summer. And i stand by the fact that it was one that lacked a bit of planning. We bought Zaza, only to want to sell him to West Ham one day and then hold him back the next. We loaned Cuadrado, only to then go ahead and sell/loan Coman (the only other natural winger on the squad). We then had Siqueira all but wrapped up, with an agreement with Athletico and the player too, only to drop him and move back for Alex Sandro, who incidentally was a target who we dropped before intensifying talks with Siqueira. And finally, we undersold Vidal, without really looking out to replace him, failed in our move for Draxler or any other AM of starting quality, and panicked eventually to settle for Hernanes. That does not strike me as a well planned mercato. And it certainly doesn't strike me as the kind of off season a CL finalist would or should have. We had a fantastic springboard to really make a substantial leap in quality for the team and squad and we failed.

I really don't know why you insist on mixing in transfer rumours with facts...ridiculous.

So in short you are saying that sometimes you don't get your first choice in the mercato, and sometimes you have to adapt to the situation. That's the same every mercato for almost every club. Not all but most, given how many players move in windows now.

Alex Sandro was absolutely first choice because he is a quality player, one that cost double what Siqueira would, and the fact we flirted with Siqueira if and when perhaps Alex Sandro looked unlikely doesn't in the slightest differentiate from that.

 

[dolph]

A good summer or a bad summer is subjective. It was not an effective summer. And i stand by the fact that it was one that lacked a bit of planning. We bought Zaza, only to want to sell him to West Ham one day and then hold him back the next. We loaned Cuadrado, only to then go ahead and sell/loan Coman (the only other natural winger on the squad). We then had Siqueira all but wrapped up, with an agreement with Athletico and the player too, only to drop him and move back for Alex Sandro, who incidentally was a target who we dropped before intensifying talks with Siqueira. And finally, we undersold Vidal, without really looking out to replace him, failed in our move for Draxler or any other AM of starting quality, and panicked eventually to settle for Hernanes. That does not strike me as a well planned mercato. And it certainly doesn't strike me as the kind of off season a CL finalist would or should have. We had a fantastic springboard to really make a substantial leap in quality for the team and squad and we failed.



That ship has sailed IMO. It's not about firing Beppe, but that next season argument actually held true for this past mercato, and he didn't deliver. At no point, did anybody here think that we would be signing 10 new players instead of the 2-3 quality ones that would've allowed us to make the process of change more gradual and less all over the place. Especially after an almost treble winning season. We tried to do much too quickly.

In the previus years I think he was somewhat excused, given our financial restrictions and I think that the positives outnumber the negatives. He fucked up this summer though and I doubt that he is able to actually take that step up but given the fact that Beppe has done really well for us overall I would be for giving him the benefit of the doubt and give him one more chance.

 

[Klin]

For me next summer will be crucial for Beppe. He has to show that he can bring in WC players, players that fit into the scheme and that the coach is asking for. Him making a couple of good opportunity signings wont cut it anymore. If he does not deliver or we will have another Draxler/ Aguero/ Van Persie/ Sanchez/ Suarez all summer long sagas I will loose my mind and jump on the fire Beppe band wagon.

It's always the same excuse every year. "Next Summer will be crucial" and "Next Summer we need to focus on quality instead of quantity". Both Marotta and Allegri have to share the blame if we don't manage third, therefore both should be penalized.

 

[lgorTudor]

How's this team built for long term success??

not for our long term success but for somebody else's. Inter's for example

 

[Hydde]

For me next summer will be crucial for Beppe. He has to show that he can bring in WC players, players that fit into the scheme and that the coach is asking for. Him making a couple of good opportunity signings wont cut it anymore. If he does not deliver or we will have another Draxler/ Aguero/ Van Persie/ Sanchez/ Suarez all summer long sagas I will loose my mind and jump on the fire Beppe band wagon.

That ship has sailed IMO. It's not about firing Beppe, but that next season argument actually held true for this past mercato, and he didn't deliver. At no point, did anybody here think that we would be signing 10 new players instead of the 2-3 quality ones that would've allowed us to make the process of change more gradual and less all over the place. Especially after an almost treble winning season. We tried to do much too quickly.

It's always the same excuse every year. "Next Summer will be crucial" and "Next Summer we need to focus on quality instead of quantity". Both Marotta and Allegri have to share the blame if we don't manage third, therefore both should be penalized.

The next summer thing was THIS summer. The one when we were on our highest point ever in the last 10 years. And we all saw how we crapped on it.

The next summer will be a reconstruction one instead of a summer of quality and ambition. We went backwards this season and will have to do some serious switch to improve the team, as we are incomplete and we have redundant players like zaza and mandzukic..who we need to ged rid off and replace properly.

I dont know what will Marotta do really...this summer he fuked it up so much.

Most likely..we will look for more opportunities once again, to replace our current "opportunities" who flopped. And Pogba and Morata will leave most likely because you know how our hands will be when madrid and barcelona come to whisper in the ear of them and they ask to leave.

Allegri obviously takes part of the cake..and from the last interview...MArota seems to be starting to feel the heat and trying to use max as a scapegoat if he doesnt deliver to reach 3rd place.

If Max fails.. both should go to be fair. But then we will end up with maybe another Secco and the situation could get just worse.


Guys, what you are seeing right now... is the top of the line of what penny pinching could get us....its all going down from here unless we get serious in the mercato and stop being pennypinchers.

 

[Post Ironic]

If we don't get top 3 and lose the CL income for next year in this abysmal Serie A, with only mediocrity at the top of the table, Beppe and Allegri should both be fired. There is absolutely no excuse for turning a double winning (4 scudetti straight), CL finalist into a Europa League level team. Not winning the scudetto is bad enough considering our team of last season would have won it by 15+ points this year, but if we have knocked ourselves out of the top 3 with terrible transfer strategy and horrific coaching, they both absolutely have to go.

How anyone could argue for them staying if we miss out on next year's CL is absurd beyond belief.

If we do manage to qualify for CL, different story, it should buy them a year to fix this mess. And if Allegri somehow figures things out, how to get the most out of these players and develop the younger players into better, contributing members of the squad and we win the scudetto again, I'll be overjoyed to admit my naysaying was wrong... But it's wait and see at this point and things aren't looking promising yet.

 

[baggio]

I really don't know why you insist on mixing in transfer rumours with facts...ridiculous.

So in short you are saying that sometimes you don't get your first choice in the mercato, and sometimes you have to adapt to the situation. That's the same every mercato for almost every club. Not all but most, given how many players move in windows now.

Alex Sandro was absolutely first choice because he is a quality player, one that cost double what Siqueira would, and the fact we flirted with Siqueira if and when perhaps Alex Sandro looked unlikely doesn't in the slightest differentiate from that.

I think there is a distinction between transfer rumours and an agent's words. Iirc, in Zazas agents words, he mentioned there was contact with West Ham, and that Bilic was an admirer an went on to speak about Juve believing in him and that he is a serious professional and it takes time to adapt at a new/big club blah blah. I can understand an agent talking up a client, but seeing the timing being just after his client had already moved to a club, it's unlikely he would need to spread a rumour like that. Fair to say this is more likely to be fact, even more so, when us deciding to hold on to Zaza coincided with Llorente's eventual departure for free to Sevilla. Not getting in DiMarizio etc reporting the news and saying the deal was on the verge of closing because that is speculation even if it was mentioned. A loan with option to buy. Doesn't sound as ridiculous as you'd like to think.

How many times have we got our first choice players under Beppe's reign? After all the money we spent on the transfer market. It is true that one has to adapt to a dynamic, ever evolving situation but the issue here is that we spread our net to wide in search of opportunity before actual long term quality targets. The only two targets that I remember that we could argue were first choice, are Dybala and Sandro, and despite both being on the last years of their contracts, neither of them came on our terms. That's just how the cookie crumbles.

The next summer thing was THIS summer. The one when we were on our highest point ever in the last 10 years. And we all saw how we crapped on it.

I dont know what will Marotta do really...this summer he fuked it up so much.

Allegri obviously takes part of the cake..and from the last interview...MArota seems to be starting to feel the heat and trying to use max as a scapegoat if he doesnt deliver to reach 3rd place.

If Max fails.. both should go to be fair. But then we will end up with maybe another Secco and the situation could get just worse.

Guys, what you are seeing right now... is the top of the line of what penny pinching could get us....its all going down from here unless we get serious in the mercato and stop being pennypinchers.

Yes, the penny pinching you speak of, is really the approach we take. Somehwere you cannot blame Marrotta if he is out of his depth coz he's for a large part of his career worked being conditioned in a certain way. Cutting corners, saving where he can, after all that time with Samp. Top flight, elite clubs unfortunately function in a much more direct way in the mercato. Every big, explosive player always carries an inflated price. Not judging whether we are right or wrong to buy those players, but that's really what the game is about now. So if we do want these type of players, there is unfortunately no other way around it. Which is why the Vidal sale to me at that price was borderline incompetence.

- - - Updated - - -

If we don't get top 3 and lose the CL income for next year in this abysmal Serie A, with only mediocrity at the top of the table, Beppe and Allegri should both be fired. There is absolutely no excuse for turning a double winning (4 scudetti straight), CL finalist into a Europa League level team. Not winning the scudetto is bad enough considering our team of last season would have won it by 15+ points this year, but if we have knocked ourselves out of the top 3 with terrible transfer strategy and horrific coaching, they both absolutely have to go.

How anyone could argue for them staying if we miss out on next year's CL is absurd beyond belief.

If we do manage to qualify for CL, different story, it should buy them a year to fix this mess. And if Allegri somehow figures things out, how to get the most out of these players and develop the younger players into better, contributing members of the squad and we win the scudetto again, I'll be overjoyed to admit my naysaying was wrong... But it's wait and see at this point and things aren't looking promising yet.

Problem is, are we aware enough as a club to move forward wpositively after losing transfer director and coach in one summer? It's a highly unlikely scenario that this might happen, and even if it is about firing someone, it is more likely to be the coach being made the scapegoat rather than the transfer director agreeing to his glaring mistakes. Fortunately for Beppe, Conte's incredible success wih the team buys him more time than it does Allegri. And also, I'm a big believer in the devil you know is better than the one you don't. I will not be able to see us sign Mazzarri after sacking Allegri, and some of the apologists here coming out and talking about how it is part of the restructuring job before we bide our time for the next high quality coach.

 

[Post Ironic]

I think my point is the utter ridiculousness of suggesting it is alright for us to settle for Europa League places with no consequences for those responsible. The very fact it will lose us tens of millions in revenue next year if it happens and deal a major blow to our financial rebuilding and our ability to attract top players with our already penny-pinching ways... well, those responsible need to be held accountable if it happens.

Someone posted our tackles per game stats this year as opposed to the last 4-5 years. It's by far the lowest it has been, and that is directly related to selling one of the best box to box mids in the world and failing to replace him. How is that acceptable behaviour on the market considering our results this far?

Beppe should be held accountable if we miss 3rd. And I've always been a big fan of his. But what he did this summer is inexcusable if we don't recover from it. Too much transitioning all at once. Losing Tevez for sure, and Pirlo, we should have absolutely refused to entertain offers for Vidal below an amount that would be silly not to accept. IE. 60 mil.