Martin Cáceres (44 Viewers)

Nov 17, 2012
3,030
As much as I'm a huge Caceres fan, his Juve career and prospects of a renewal are entirely up to him. Short of a properly unlucky injury sustained on the pitch; it is almost entirely up to him to stay healthy, keep fit, steer clear of trouble (particularly off the pitch) and perform well on it. If he does those things, I think there's every reason to hope for a renewal, given he's seen more game time in the last month than the rest of the season combined. Subbing in for Chiello, whilst replacing Barza at RCB, and we all know he can play RB/RWB, has again proved his indispensable utility and usefulness.
 

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Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,733
But we ant ignnore his injuries. He has been failing us in a lot of occations when we needed him because of injuries. It seems the club simply got tired of that.

And also the DUI issue..which could be overlooked if they really wanted, because caderes is not a thug and has been loyal to us for many years--- but im pretty sure that the injury vs money spend vs performance is what has annoyed the club
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,745
Sandro is a luxury signing yes. Priority should have been to an AM, and SS and CM subs. We have evra, asamoah and padoin all can play lb. We dont have a proper AM at all.

Owning Morata and Zaza is overkill. One is enough. Management knew morata was staying this season hence Zaza was a luxury signing and the money should have been spent on an AM.
Dude wtf. Just accept the fact that Sandro has been instrumental this year and eventhough he was considered as one of the signing for the future (around these parts), seeing that Evra is 33 yo, he's been absolutely beasting on the left side and has slotted right in. Sandro would have been luxury signing if Evra had been 5-6 years younger and then you would have a point.

We need to have 4 forwards btw, and Zaza is having spectacular season so far.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
How can anybody be that clueless?!
Good argument

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Dude wtf. Just accept the fact that Sandro has been instrumental this year and eventhough he was considered as one of the signing for the future (around these parts), seeing that Evra is 33 yo, he's been absolutely beasting on the left side and has slotted right in. Sandro would have been luxury signing if Evra had been 5-6 years younger and then you would have a point.

We need to have 4 forwards btw, and Zaza is having spectacular season so far.
They are having good seasons I did not say they are not. I am only saying they should not have been our priority. I am sure you can buy another striker in addition to Mandzukic morata and Zaza that can have a good season too but that would be overkill.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,745
They are having good seasons I did not say they are not. I am only saying they should not have been our priority. I am sure you can buy another striker in addition to Mandzukic morata and Zaza that can have a good season too but that would be overkill.
Difference between 4th striker, Zaza's supposed role and bringing an additional forward though. The fact that they are having a good season, that Sandro has benched Evra, that Zaza has been having impressive goal & assist/minute ratio indicates that we made the right decision and indentified our priorities accordingly. Entirely another matter is that you don't agree with this, but you've been proven wrong so far. Which isn't surprising since the guys at helm have little more experience at dealing with these matters and identifying our priorities on the market. Hey, I wasn't the biggest fan of getting Zaza for 18, but after the half a season he's been having I'll gladly admit my mistakes and have this impressive specimen as my av.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
Difference between 4th striker, Zaza's supposed role and bringing an additional forward though. The fact that they are having a good season, that Sandro has benched Evra, that Zaza has been having impressive goal & assist/minute ratio indicates that we made the right decision and indentified our priorities accordingly. Entirely another matter is that you don't agree with this, but you've been proven wrong so far. Which isn't surprising since the guys at helm have little more experience at dealing with these matters and identifying our priorities on the market. Hey, I wasn't the biggest fan of getting Zaza for 18, but after the half a season he's been having I'll gladly admit my mistakes and have this impressive specimen as my av.
You missed the point. I am not saying they are not having a good season and I am not saying Evra is better than Sandro. They are having a good season and Sandro has benched evra rightly because of his superior performances. I am saying that the signings, while improving the squad should not have been prioritized over an AM for instance who was also going to improve the team.

When spending money, you can spend it on a position that you really lack depth in and get a flop (that would be the worst scenario) or he might turn out great. Dybala was spending on a position that had no one and he turned out great. You can also spend money on a player for a position that is not very lacking in your squad and get a great player or a flop. Sandro seems like a case of spending on a player that turned out good but his position was already covered well-enough compared to other areas of the squad.

If you sign Thiago Silva he would bench one of our CBs and would perform very well since he is the better player, however that would not mean that signing a world class CB should be Juve's priority when the squad is lacking in other departments. Zaza is our third ST regardless of whether he is having a good season or not. Prioritizing a 3rd ST when you already have 2 great ones over getting an AM is a paradigmatic case of having your priorities in reverse order.

I was wrong about how fast dybala would come good and about Zaza's effectiveness as an impact sub. I was not wrong about not prioritizing and our poor start was down to marchisio's absence among other things.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,745
You missed the point. I am not saying they are not having a good season and I am not saying Evra is better than Sandro. They are having a good season and Sandro has benched evra rightly because of his superior performances. I am saying that the signings, while improving the squad should not have been prioritized over an AM for instance who was also going to improve the team.

When spending money, you can spend it on a position that you really lack depth in and get a flop (that would be the worst scenario) or he might turn out great. Dybala was spending on a position that had no one and he turned out great. You can also spend money on a player for a position that is not very lacking in your squad and get a great player or a flop. Sandro seems like a case of spending on a player that turned out good but his position was already covered well-enough compared to other areas of the squad.

If you sign Thiago Silva he would bench one of our CBs and would perform very well since he is the better player, however that would not mean that signing a world class CB should be Juve's priority when the squad is lacking in other departments. Zaza is our third ST regardless of whether he is having a good season or not. Prioritizing a 3rd ST when you already have 2 great ones over getting an AM is a paradigmatic case of having your priorities in reverse order.
That's where you're wrong. The club tried to bring AM over the summer. See Marotta's interviews at the beginning of the season. There were talks with several clubs, but there wasn't any opening and players like Goetze and Draxler were either too expensive or didn't want to leave their club. Instead of bringing in 2nd rate attacking midfielder, like Vasquez, we strenghtened positions that could have become an issue for us soon. It was never like deciding to bring Sandro or Zaza prevented us to sign top attacking mid. The team already had several options in any case and there's also 3-5-2, the system well known to our players. Pereyra is very good AM btw and if we're looking for an upgrade it need to be some world class signing, which in any case would be difficult. I'm glad we pursued other objectives and added players like Sandro among our ranks, since Evra might not be here next year. Then you'd complain that we didn't plan ahead. We were never looking at only one position on the field and made it as our priority, evidently.

The point is we had several gaps to fill left by Tevez' leave, Evra's age and there's an AM spot. We did excellent in 2/3.

I was wrong about how fast dybala would come good and about Zaza's effectiveness as an impact sub. I was not wrong about not prioritizing and our poor start was down to marchisio's absence among other things.
Dude you couldn't have been more wrong, since you predicted mid table finish at one point. Tottaly panicked. Our team is stacked with insane amount of talent and we are set to dominate for the next 5-6 years. Iirc you also predicted that Roma are in better position than us last year, since we'll have plenty of players to replace soon. Well look how that turned out.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
You missed the point. I am not saying they are not having a good season and I am not saying Evra is better than Sandro. They are having a good season and Sandro has benched evra rightly because of his superior performances. I am saying that the signings, while improving the squad should not have been prioritized over an AM for instance who was also going to improve the team.

When spending money, you can spend it on a position that you really lack depth in and get a flop (that would be the worst scenario) or he might turn out great. Dybala was spending on a position that had no one and he turned out great. You can also spend money on a player for a position that is not very lacking in your squad and get a great player or a flop. Sandro seems like a case of spending on a player that turned out good but his position was already covered well-enough compared to other areas of the squad.

If you sign Thiago Silva he would bench one of our CBs and would perform very well since he is the better player, however that would not mean that signing a world class CB should be Juve's priority when the squad is lacking in other departments. Zaza is our third ST regardless of whether he is having a good season or not. Prioritizing a 3rd ST when you already have 2 great ones over getting an AM is a paradigmatic case of having your priorities in reverse order.

I was wrong about how fast dybala would come good and about Zaza's effectiveness as an impact sub. I was not wrong about not prioritizing and our poor start was down to marchisio's absence among other things.
What you're missing is that a top class fullback is absolutely one of our priorities since Era is already 34 (soon to be 35) and that we definitely need a replacement for him.

Sandro is not only an replacement, but a player to lock down the LB/LWB spot for years to come, as one of the best in his position. As such, the investment in Sandro is absolutely worth it. Evra's position was well covered for the present, but with Sandro, it's well covered for the future too.
 

JuveID

Allegri and Beppe Mania
Feb 5, 2015
1,113
Sandro is a luxury signing yes. Priority should have been to an AM, and SS and CM subs. We have evra, asamoah and padoin all can play lb. We dont have a proper AM at all.

Owning Morata and Zaza is overkill. One is enough. Management knew morata was staying this season hence Zaza was a luxury signing and the money should have been spent on an AM.
Asamoah was injured at the time.
Evra is 34 years old. You can not expect him keep stay healty.
And we need sandro to be evra's sub and evra's future replacement.
 

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
Buying Alex Sandro was never wrong for us. The question was if we could convince the player and close the deal. In current market Alex Sandro for 26m is a fucking steal, that was a masterpiece from our management, one of the best LBs in the game right now.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
What you're missing is that a top class fullback is absolutely one of our priorities since Era is already 34 (soon to be 35) and that we definitely need a replacement for him.

Sandro is not only an replacement, but a player to lock down the LB/LWB spot for years to come, as one of the best in his position. As such, the investment in Sandro is absolutely worth it. Evra's position was well covered for the present, but with Sandro, it's well covered for the future too.

Lb was covered for the present, with Evra (Top Class), Asa (very good) and Padoin (Decent) doing what they did last season. Sandro as a world class player on top of them is a slight improvement for the present and buys us security in the future. Looking at the signing in isolation, it is definitely a good signing. However, AM did not and still does not have a single top class player, and amongst non-top talents we have just one player to play that position. Allegri publicly said he wanted a world class AM.

Getting a long term world class Lb when adequate cover was already there is < getting a world class AM where no adequate cover exists.

I dont see why its a controversial point. A top AM was a more pressing issue than a top Lb because of the lack of adequate cover in the AM position and how essential that position is in Allegri's 4-3-1-2. The same applies even more clearly for Zaza

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That's where you're wrong. The club tried to bring AM over the summer. See Marotta's interviews at the beginning of the season. There were talks with several clubs, but there wasn't any opening and players like Goetze and Draxler were either too expensive or didn't want to leave their club. Instead of bringing in 2nd rate attacking midfielder, like Vasquez, we strenghtened positions that could have become an issue for us soon. It was never like deciding to bring Sandro or Zaza prevented us to sign top attacking mid. The team already had several options in any case and there's also 3-5-2, the system well known to our players. Pereyra is very good AM btw and if we're looking for an upgrade it need to be some world class signing, which in any case would be difficult. I'm glad we pursued other objectives and added players like Sandro among our ranks, since Evra might not be here next year. Then you'd complain that we didn't plan ahead. We were never looking at only one position on the field and made it as our priority, evidently.

The point is we had several gaps to fill left by Tevez' leave, Evra's age and there's an AM spot. We did excellent in 2/3.

Dude you couldn't have been more wrong, since you predicted mid table finish at one point. Tottaly panicked. Our team is stacked with insane amount of talent and we are set to dominate for the next 5-6 years. Iirc you also predicted that Roma are in better position than us last year, since we'll have plenty of players to replace soon. Well look how that turned out.
If I remember correctly, we really didnt go after draxler for a long time and were outbid by wolfsburg. The Sandro and Zaza signings came earlier on in the transfer season and so I think you are mistaken in saying that we were going for Draxler and then decided to pursue Sandro and Zaza instead. The order we followed had draxler at the end of our market if memory serves me right. The money for Sandro and Zaza was already spent by the time we went after Draxler.

We also had to replace Pirlo. Marchisio took his role but no one took marchisio's old role (Vice Pirlo).

I did not predict a mid table finish. As far as I remember, I predicted a top 3 finish if marchisio comes back and stays injury free and a mid table finish if marchisio remains out. Even if I did make that prediction(which i don't remember making), the indicators back then were that we were a mess. we changed formations something like 8 times in 10 games and had our worst start to a season in the last few decades. The players were running around like headless chicken and so naturally this data forecasts a very dark future. You do not rationally expect a stock that has been in free-fall for a couple of months to suddenly take a great continuous hike. We were warranted in thinking that the season would go bad. It was not an unreasonable forecast to make given the available evidence at the time. You are a main of faith in this regard and you were vindicated but that doesnt mean we were unreasonable in our prediction. In epistemology we call predictions like yours cases of epistemic luck.


Finally, Roma were in a better position than us thats why their failure is doubly bad. They had a core of young very good players, had very good financial backing and had young good coach that was staying for many years. We on the other hand had a very old core and had to replace key players either because of age or because they were moving on like Vidal and Tevez. We also had to go through a coach change, a formation switch and then switch back with tons of new largely young inexperienced players coming in. The fact that Roma is as low as they are is scandalous. They had the money, the squad and the stability while we had none of that. On our side, this is a testament to Allegri's good work (and Marotta's to some extent), while on their side its a miserable failure on their management and particularly on Garcia.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
Lb was covered for the present, with Evra (Top Class), Asa (very good) and Padoin (Decent) doing what they did last season. Sandro as a world class player on top of them is a slight improvement for the present and buys us security in the future. Looking at the signing in isolation, it is definitely a good signing. However, AM did not and still does not have a single top class player, and amongst non-top talents we have just one player to play that position. Allegri publicly said he wanted a world class AM.

Getting a long term world class Lb when adequate cover was already there is < getting a world class AM where no adequate cover exists.

I dont see why its a controversial point. A top AM was a more pressing issue than a top Lb because of the lack of adequate cover in the AM position and how essential that position is in Allegri's 4-3-1-2. The same applies even more clearly for Zaza

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If I remember correctly, we really didnt go after draxler for a long time and were outbid by wolfsburg. The Sandro and Zaza signings came earlier on in the transfer season and so I think you are mistaken in saying that we were going for Draxler and then decided to pursue Sandro and Zaza instead. The order we followed had draxler at the end of our market if memory serves me right. The money for Sandro and Zaza was already spent by the time we went after Draxler.

We also had to replace Pirlo. Marchisio took his role but no one took marchisio's old role (Vice Pirlo).

I did not predict a mid table finish. As far as I remember, I predicted a top 3 finish if marchisio comes back and stays injury free and a mid table finish if marchisio remains out. Even if I did make that prediction(which i don't remember making), the indicators back then were that we were a mess. we changed formations something like 8 times in 10 games and had our worst start to a season in the last few decades. The players were running around like headless chicken and so naturally this data forecasts a very dark future. You do not rationally expect a stock that has been in free-fall for a couple of months to suddenly take a great continuous hike. We were warranted in thinking that the season would go bad. It was not an unreasonable forecast to make given the available evidence at the time. You are a main of faith in this regard and you were vindicated but that doesnt mean we were unreasonable in our prediction. In epistemology we call predictions like yours cases of epistemic luck.


Finally, Roma were in a better position than us thats why their failure is doubly bad. They had a core of young very good players, had very good financial backing and had young good coach that was staying for many years. We on the other hand had a very old core and had to replace key players either because of age or because they were moving on like Vidal and Tevez. We also had to go through a coach change, a formation switch and then switch back with tons of new largely young inexperienced players coming in. The fact that Roma is as low as they are is scandalous. They had the money, the squad and the stability while we had none of that. On our side, this is a testament to Allegri's good work (and Marotta's to some extent), while on their side its a miserable failure on their management and particularly on Garcia.
Dude, Alex Sandro has us covered on the LB for years to come, and he was available at a cut price due to his contract situation. Juve isn't in a position financially to sign players among the very best in their position that are already the finished product and of a perfect footballing age. We have to take these opportunities, and it would've been retarded if we hadn't.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
Dude, Alex Sandro has us covered on the LB for years to come, and he was available at a cut price due to his contract situation. Juve isn't in a position financially to sign players among the very best in their position that are already the finished product and of a perfect footballing age. We have to take these opportunities, and it would've been retarded if we hadn't.
I see the merits of the signing. I would say Draxler would have served us much better in the present since evra would still be there and Asa would take back the position in the future, and Draxler would have served us just as good in the future too. How much did he end up going for? 30-40 mill?

In any case we are just repeating ourselves. Lets just agree to disagree on this.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,973
I see the merits of the signing. I would say Draxler would have served us much better in the present since evra would still be there and Asa would take back the position in the future, and Draxler would have served us just as good in the future too. How much did he end up going for? 30-40 mill?

In any case we are just repeating ourselves. Lets just agree to disagree on this.
Draxler has been very mediocre for Wolfsburg, a team that has dropped from 2nd place last year, to 7th place right now in Bundesliga.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
I see the merits of the signing. I would say Draxler would have served us much better in the present since evra would still be there and Asa would take back the position in the future, and Draxler would have served us just as good in the future too. How much did he end up going for? 30-40 mill?

In any case we are just repeating ourselves. Lets just agree to disagree on this.
Fair enough
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
51,816
I see the merits of the signing. I would say Draxler would have served us much better in the present since evra would still be there and Asa would take back the position in the future, and Draxler would have served us just as good in the future too. How much did he end up going for? 30-40 mill?

In any case we are just repeating ourselves. Lets just agree to disagree on this.
Evra leaves after this season. then what?
 

Albo

Senior Member
Apr 13, 2009
11,456
I see the merits of the signing. I would say Draxler would have served us much better in the present since evra would still be there and Asa would take back the position in the future, and Draxler would have served us just as good in the future too. How much did he end up going for? 30-40 mill?

In any case we are just repeating ourselves. Lets just agree to disagree on this.
Thanks god we didn't sign that overrated fuck .
 

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