Martin Cáceres (52 Viewers)

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
You didn't seem to rate Marchisio in the regista role and said it was a failure to get a proper Pirlo replacement.
Pirlo was spectacularly poor last season.

I'm sure 2013 midfield is superior for everyone. We are comparing this season's midfield with last season's though, not 2013's. :D

Yes, Lemina is defensive. He's a good short passer but doesn't have the long range or vision. It's not a requirement for the player in that position to be a distributor though, esp if he's a backup.
Not true. Marchisio did replace Pirlo quite well last season. I have been complaining about a lack of a marchisio sub all season especially at the start and I consistently laid the blame on marotta and not allegri for that. I argued that marchisio had only one good season as regista and is susceptible to injuries and so we need a world class distributor in the team if marchisio gets injured or doesn't replicate last season's form. I said its suicidal to only go with marchisio since he is the only player capable of distributing in the current squad. Marchisio was vice Pirlo last season and we really needed both. Both players were world class. Today we have marchisio as the starter and no vice marchisio. No one that can ever come close to being world class that is.

Pirlo was definitely not spectacularly poor last season. He did his job quite well he just did not do the spectacular things only he is able to to do as regularly as before. You do not almost complete a treble with a spectacularly bad player as your main regista especially that this position/role is key in our game plan. He also shone in multiple moments both in the league and in the CL. We would not have made it out of the group stages if it were not for his freekick against olympiakos. He also won us the turin derby. These are just examples at the top of my mind. Check his average rating across the season on any site that you please. He was not the Pirlo from the conte era (arguably the best regista in football) but he pulled the strings and organized the midfield quite well that we never felt that the midfield are headless chickens or that the attackers are starved of service. To even consider that he is as bad as Hernanes has been for us is ludicrous. Marchisio even today is better only at the defensive side of his role.

In terms of passing range and movement Pirlo still was from another planet though less than what he got us used to in the Conte era. Marchisio does the unspectacular. He orchestrates the midfield and recovers the ball but he was never capable of the sublime.


Which midfield from last season are you considering? Pereyra/vidal with Pogba, Pirlo and Marchisio behind him? or the midfield with sturaro as starting?


A distributor's job does require long range passing and exceptional off the ball movement. He should be always available as the go-to guy for defenders and midfielders when they don't know what to do under pressure. He should also be able to link the midfield with the attack. So not only should he be available to take the ball whenever a defender or midfielder needs support, he should also know how to use the ball under pressure and deliver it either to other midfielders in more open spaces or to wingbacks or strikers. Recall Pirlo spreading the play to Licht and how every play from our defense went through Pirlo. Also recall how he controlled any pass he received, turned around and passed it to a free player. Lemina can't do those things. When marchisio was absent, Pogba had to drop deep in the midfield to help distribute in place of hernanes/lemina and people were wondering why he was no longer as threatening going forward.

Hernanes is a better candidate as far as I can tell to be our vice marchiso. He can pass well but his off the ball movement is horrendous. He just stays still instead of moving to a location where the other pressured players can find him. Pirlo was slow but he was always available to players and whenever he got the ball he could do the smooth twists and turns to escape pressure.

Marchisio is better than pirlo only in a 4-3-1-2 because he is not required to be very creative in that formation (Pirlo's advantage over him) and he has to do more defensive ball winning (Marchisio's advantage over pirlo). In a 3-5-2 however, the regista should be very creative because the two other Cm's have to be a threat going forward the way vidal and pogba/marchisio used to be after the wingbacks stretch opposition defenses. Thats why Pirlo excels in such a role. His defensive weaknesses are undermined while his creative power is emphasized by the 3-5-2. Conte's brilliance lies in identifying that and molding the team to suit Pirlo best.
 

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Klin

نحن الروبوتات
May 27, 2009
61,689
More like you seemed to have my back initially or reminded everyone that you said the same thing but got lol'd at. But then, when pressure was piled on and Klin said you had to have been trolling, you chickened out. :D :p

Just for funsies, I wonder what @Hist, @s4tch, @Zacheryah, and @Klin have to say now about what they said then. :D ;)
There are still weak spots in our squad that I think should have been addressed last Summer (like a sub SS for Dybala and a proper sub for Marchisio who currently is Hernanes who was supposedly brought as a trequartista), but so far so good I guess, but it's better to wait till the end of season for me to eat my words. :tup:
 

JuveID

Allegri and Beppe Mania
Feb 5, 2015
1,113
I still hold the same position. Marchisio has no decent sub and his role is essential to the proper functioning of the midfield and consequently the team as a whole. If he gets injured for a long period we will suffer. I also did not call for Allegri's head though I was pretty close. I said we should wait till marchisio is back before we judge him and if marchisio remains injured then sack him only if there is someone better available.

What I did get wrong is that I underestimated the impact of Dybala. I didnt think a 20 year old can fill tevez's shoes so quickly. I wanted (and still want) to cash in on Zaza and look for a marchisio and a dybala sub (especially the former).
You also said sandro is un-needed.

For ss dybala, you have morata. Yes he is no genuine SS, but it's difficult to get a player who has same quality and charateristic as SS like dybala in just one season.
Morata as SS already provide to assists. Not bad as vice ss.
And we know it next season we probably will have berardi next season.

Selling zaza will be big mistake. If morata goes back to madrid, we will only have mandzukic.
Loan matri again? Who will be mandzukic's replacement?
With owning zaza, not only we have decent sub for mandzukic, but also you have mandzukic's replacement in the future.

And yes, i agree that marotta was wrong. He should search vice regista first then he could search trequartista.
But you can not only blame marotta for that.
Who does want trequartista?
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,408
You also said sandro is un-needed.

For ss dybala, you have morata. Yes he is no genuine SS, but it's difficult to get a player who has same quality and charateristic as SS like dybala in just one season.
Morata as SS already provide to assists. Not bad as vice ss.
And we know it next season we probably will have berardi next season.

Selling zaza will be big mistake. If morata goes back to madrid, we will only have mandzukic.
Loan matri again? Who will be mandzukic's replacement?
With owning zaza, not only we have decent sub for mandzukic, but also you have mandzukic's replacement in the future.

And yes, i agree that marotta was wrong. He should search vice regista first then he could search trequartista.
But you can not only blame marotta for that.
Who does want trequartista?
Sandro is a luxury signing yes. Priority should have been to an AM, and SS and CM subs. We have evra, asamoah and padoin all can play lb. We dont have a proper AM at all.

Owning Morata and Zaza is overkill. One is enough. Management knew morata was staying this season hence Zaza was a luxury signing and the money should have been spent on an AM.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,314
The thing with Pirlo was that he required great attention of both other cm's in order to operate Just by putting Marchisio there, the two other cm's gain a great deal of enhanced offensive freedom and possibilities
Furthermore, Marchisio is a supportive player that is entirely focussed in getting the best out of the other two cm's, wingbacks and support the frontline. He enhances the team.

If you put a succesfull marker on Pirlo, the team greatly loses effectivity. The special factor of Pirlo falls away, and the other 2 cm's will need to be helping him out even more.

Putting a marker on Marchiso is rather silly, as this would give even more room to the other cm's and wingbacks to operate in. It wont do jack shit. If anything, Marchisio would draw them away from the "hot" zone, and when he can, he'll still try to appear to keep the ball hot.

In 12/13 Pogba was nowere near as good as today. He barely managed to move marchisio away from b2b position. Vidal was excellent tho.

Today we see a MUCH better Pogba, and the incredible enhancement of wingbacks and midfield by marchsisio. If Khedira can continue his return to form and pull of great games, this midfield is the best post calciopoli one we've seen.

- - - Updated - - -



Not everyone m8
FFS, why do you allways have to jump the shark needlessly? No this midfield is not best post calciopoli midfield, come on, our previous masterful trio is still so fucking recent. We can't have that much of hamster memories. It takes more then defensive stability (that Vidal used to provide in different ways) for Marchisio to compete with a ridiculous Pirlo that changed everything for us off the bat, used to assist around 15 and score half a dozen decisive freekicks. He was a fucking genius master at top form.


It's also a travesty to even consider for a second that all Khedira needs to do is handful of good games and couple of goals to be seen as improvement on the most dominating midfielder we had in ages? Vidal was the absolute best at what he did, recover possession and cover huge amount of areas effortlessly. And for fun he used to score strikers numbers for couple seasons...



What does that leave you? A Pogba that was scoring 9 goals and assisting 9 times with them. He needs to take charge more and mature without them, but he was awesome with them still.


It's crazy weird to truly think current midfield is better then our MVP on their prime. Only thing better is fullbacks that I don't consider true midfielders anyways. And that's entirely because of Alex Sandro.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,314
He didnt say new contract, he said stay at Juve, that rules out him leaving this mercato, which I didnt think he would anyways (need the depth). But both him and Evra need their contract addressed, if it isnt they are leaving. Barzagli in comparison should be a foregone conclusion, he wants us, we want him. With the other two its the reverse. We prolly want to keep Evra but he is hesistant of remaining as backup, while with Caceres its us who dont want him so far.
 

rakib567

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2013
10,084
De sciglio under allegri was a beast. If he regains form he is going to be our zambrotta for the next 10 years.

Caceres is a beast too tho. We shouldn't sell him either
 

DanielSz

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2014
12,456
He didnt say new contract, he said stay at Juve, that rules out him leaving this mercato, which I didnt think he would anyways (need the depth). But both him and Evra need their contract addressed, if it isnt they are leaving. Barzagli in comparison should be a foregone conclusion, he wants us, we want him. With the other two its the reverse. We prolly want to keep Evra but he is hesistant of remaining as backup, while with Caceres its us who dont want him so far.
That's quite a bit of speculation there player.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,314
Been well documented. We haven't given Caceres a new contract because of his injury and DUI issues.

Evra is reported to be hesitant around the time we been offering Barzagli new deal. Talk of him going back to Monaco or Man U in combination of player and staff role instead of just remaining as backup for Alex Sandro.
 

DanielSz

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2014
12,456
Been well documented. We haven't given Caceres a new contract because of his injury and DUI issues.

Evra is reported to be hesitant around the time we been offering Barzagli new deal. Talk of him going back to Monaco or Man U in combination of player and staff role instead of just remaining as backup for Alex Sandro.
Rumors are rumors. If juve really didn't like caceres they would sell him right now. Just because they haven't given caceres a contract yet doesn't mean they don't want to. Look at barzagli. Where's his contract?
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,314
Not wanting to renew and selling him now are two separate things. We want our squad intact for this season. Next one is another matter.

We will give Barzagli a new one and has initiated negotiations with him. The fact we have been reluctant on Caceres has been well publicised. He just recently got out of the ice box, someone who has been suspended by the club and 5 month lefts on contact, is not a stretch to assume it's unlikely he will get a new one.


Evra in comparison is someone they want to keep like Barzagli, but player himself have different options he need to consider probably. Hopefully he stays put tho.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,016
Sandro is a luxury signing yes. Priority should have been to an AM, and SS and CM subs. We have evra, asamoah and padoin all can play lb. We dont have a proper AM at all.

Owning Morata and Zaza is overkill. One is enough. Management knew morata was staying this season hence Zaza was a luxury signing and the money should have been spent on an AM.
How can anybody be that clueless?!
 

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