La Liga 2019/20 (3 Viewers)

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Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
You cant possibly know this. Ifs and buts. Your opinion isnt testament to the facts... What we do know is that he is still scoring bucketload of goals and adding as many assists. Saying hes been carried by his teammates to score 50 g+a sounds silly. Especially since this is prolly the weakest Barca in the last 15 years.

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Who is saying this? But its legitimate to claim he has carried Barca to 2nd place, considering how effective he still is.
Yes, i can possibly say it and you'd say it as well if you watched those matches. There's no other way to deny it other than not watching the matches so enough of that.

What if it's Ter Stegen with the 50 gamesavers he has shown in this season, in order to keep Barca in play for example? Barca's defense often gets critiziced for being bad, for being incompetent and so on, but what if it's actually that their couple free passengers up there never helped them? But of course, we can only see what google shows, aren't we?

Yes it's a legit claim that he carried Barca to 2nd place, when it could be dissapointment in a same note.
 

Vlad

Senior Member
May 23, 2011
19,219
Yes, i can possibly say it and you'd say it as well if you watched those matches. There's no other way to deny it other than not watching the matches so enough of that.

What if it's Ter Stegen with the 50 gamesavers he has shown in this season, in order to keep Barca in play for example? Barca's defense often gets critiziced for being bad, for being incompetent and so on, but what if it's actually that their couple free passengers up there never helped them? But of course, we can only see what google shows, aren't we?

Yes it's a legit claim that he carried Barca to 2nd place, when it could be dissapointment in a same note.
You need to understand that His job is to score/create goals and he is still one of the best players in the world at it, which more than compensates his lack of contribution in defense. So enough of this.
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
You need to understand that His job is to score/create goals and he is still one of the best players in the world at it, which more than compensates his lack of contribution in defense. So enough of this.
Yes, enough of this. Let me ask final question and it goes like this:

Why he hasn't carried his NT in the same way, as he has done for Barcelona?
 

Vlad

Senior Member
May 23, 2011
19,219
Yes, enough of this. Let me ask final question and it goes like this:

Why he hasn't carried his NT in the same way, as he has done for Barcelona?
Its different when you train every day with your teammates at club than meeting up every few months for practice... There is more chemistry and understanding at club level. Btw You will find plethora of great players, that didnt have much succes at NT, but were focal point of their clubs.
Are you denying that he is still one of the best players in the world?
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
Its different when you train every day with your teammates at club than meeting up every few months for practice... There is more chemistry and understanding at club level. Btw You will find plethora of great players, that didnt have much succes at NT, but were focal point of their clubs.
Are you denying that he is still one of the best players in the world?
Yes, of course you will find plethora of players like that, just because it's a team game after all. Now since Messi has been succesfull at certain place and not so succesfull in another place, doesn't that mean when he's still a same player, that he was somewhat getting carried somewhere else, where in fact he was succesfull? For me it's quite clear and even the stats support it.

Barca, Messi and La Liga are match made in heaven. Great posession team with around +70% of posession, playing against teams that like to sit deep and tempo is very slow. When you go to UCL or NT, alot in that changes and in a same note, changes the statistics of Messi. It really isn't more complicated than that, He's just perfect player to break the defenses play with such a low tempo, that's why his stats in La Liga are second to none. But that's basically the only place he's in the top of statistics and that ain't nothing but down to his team m8s and the opponents that are working with the 10% of the budget Barca has.

Messi in a right system, against the right teams is still definitely one of the best players in the game but in an even match up, he isn't. He just can't keep up with it, hasn't been for literally +5 years.
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
Who talked about Ronaldo in here?

It’s a small sample size and mostly those stats are nothing but a fluke since star players are more likely to rest against bottom teams.
 

Vlad

Senior Member
May 23, 2011
19,219
Yes, of course you will find plethora of players like that, just because it's a team game after all. Now since Messi has been succesfull at certain place and not so succesfull in another place, doesn't that mean when he's still a same player, that he was somewhat getting carried somewhere else, where in fact he was succesfull? For me it's quite clear and even the stats support it.

Barca, Messi and La Liga are match made in heaven. Great posession team with around +70% of posession, playing against teams that like to sit deep and tempo is very slow. When you go to UCL or NT, alot in that changes and in a same note, changes the statistics of Messi. It really isn't more complicated than that, He's just perfect player to break the defenses play with such a low tempo, that's why his stats in La Liga are second to none. But that's basically the only place he's in the top of statistics and that ain't nothing but down to his team m8s and the opponents that are working with the 10% of the budget Barca has.

Messi in a right system, against the right teams is still definitely one of the best players in the game but in an even match up, he isn't. He just can't keep up with it, hasn't been for literally +5 years.
Being surrounded by better players, practicing with them every day, leads to developing better understanding and chemistry between them and it also means other players are more likely to pull their weight, when the time comes against more quality opponent. What stats support in the last 5 years are: 219 goals, 84 assists for Messi at club level, which makes it 60 g+a per season. Astonishing figure. Talk about getting carried by his teammates... How many players would be able to get carried to hit those numbers by their teammates? Ronaldo maybe and thats about it.
 

Vlad

Senior Member
May 23, 2011
19,219
You are right that he is playing in a perfect environment so that his skills can thrive even further but getting behind a player that is as productive as Messi, making him a focal point of your team, elevated Barcalona to another level, which besides CR no other player would be able to take advantage of. Its a call that Barca mgt made at some point and looking at number of trophies over the years, you cant argue against it. Their current problems lie elsewhere. Buying 30 yo Pjanic is only going to add up to those issues. Imo
 
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JuveJay

起死回生
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
62,174
So the gist of this argument is that Messi is a legendary player but his persona and presence at Barcelona is bad for the growth of the team and players around him?
 
Nov 25, 2005
31,299
So the gist of this argument is that Messi is a legendary player but his persona and presence at Barcelona is bad for the growth of the team and players around him?
The point is that when you have such a luxury player the rest of the team better consist of young runners with mega stamina!
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
You are right that he is playing in a perfect environment so that his skills can thrive even further but getting behind a player that is as productive as Messi, making him a focal point of your team, elevated Barcalona to another level, which besides CR no other player would be able to take advantage of. Its a call that Barca mgt made at some point and looking at number of trophies over the years, you cant argue against it. Their current problems lie elsewhere. Buying 30 yo Pjanic is only going to add up to those issues. Imo
Nobody is talking about the Guardiola era, or MSN's triple or anything, we're talking about current Messi. We're talking about today's Messi, who is nothing but a shadow of himself. You could have put Younger Messi to any team and he would have most likely shined there(not much as in Barca but still) but you really can't say same about 33yr old Messi anymore. The sacrifices that whole club needs to make, for having him on the field in every single game for 90mins is just way too damn much. The return isn't enough anymore or kind of is, because you can't get rid of 4-5 +32yr old players at once alongside with Messi to completely change the dynamics of the team. You're literally stuck with 33yr old Messi, you're stuck with all his buddies that are old and fragile, you're stuck with the certain system you need to play, you're stuck with the same starting XI and you're stuck of not really bringing any new blood to the team. Also, you're stuck with all the signings that were made just so you could get the absolute max out of that system, which includes Messi being there and if you look at it, those signings were nothing but a panic moves to satisfy the so called GOAT. Where's the new defenders for example? Where's the future CB when Pique is gone for example? They did invest like 400m straight to the attacking players, what kind of politics is that? And anybody who says they didn't do it for making Messi happier, to satisfy Messi or Messi even raising his voice to have some additions to the front line is just purely ignoring the facts. You just ain't throwing 400m to 3 attacking players, if goalscoring has never been the problem, do you? They could have bought quality CB(MDL, VVD) type of a player, they could have had great wingback if not on the left, but atleast on the right side replacing what Dani Alves was for them.

Was never done.



So the gist of this argument is that Messi is a legendary player but his persona and presence at Barcelona is bad for the growth of the team and players around him?
Well basically yes. There wouldn't be any problem Messi was willing to actually come forward little bit, so it would make managements job way easier as well. Now it's all just for gathering one player, instead of looking Barcelona as a team, as a club and investing little bit to the future as well. It's understandable tho, if i wanted to keep my job on the board, the first thing i'd probably do is to keep Messi happy but if i actually cared more about the club, i'd prob say it's time to adapt a little bit and tell this is what we're going to do, our core is too old and so on that would you like to be around, even we did some sort of clearance in here. If he agreed that he cares about the club that has given him everything, he would just give a little nod and be part of the rebuild with his full heart but if not, which would be understandable, he would try to find a new club with different ambitions.

It really ain't more complicated than that. Don't get mistaken tho, i really hope that core will be there till they're 40 and if there's something that makes me more happy than Barca losing games or doing bad, is only Inter doing the same. They're just a disgraceful club by all means.
 

campionesidd

Senior Member
Mar 16, 2013
10,211
Barca's problems have little to do with Messi and more with their board's ineptitude.
They've splurged massive amounts of money on colossal flops like Coutinho, Dembele, and Griezmann. They just buy trending names without assessing if the players fit the team and the formation.
With the revenue they have, they could easily have built another 2009-11 like team and dominated the CL for years.
 

Vlad

Senior Member
May 23, 2011
19,219
Nobody is talking about the Guardiola era, or MSN's triple or anything, we're talking about current Messi. We're talking about today's Messi, who is nothing but a shadow of himself. You could have put Younger Messi to any team and he would have most likely shined there(not much as in Barca but still) but you really can't say same about 33yr old Messi anymore. The sacrifices that whole club needs to make, for having him on the field in every single game for 90mins is just way too damn much. The return isn't enough anymore or kind of is, because you can't get rid of 4-5 +32yr old players at once alongside with Messi to completely change the dynamics of the team. You're literally stuck with 33yr old Messi, you're stuck with all his buddies that are old and fragile, you're stuck with the certain system you need to play, you're stuck with the same starting XI and you're stuck of not really bringing any new blood to the team. Also, you're stuck with all the signings that were made just so you could get the absolute max out of that system, which includes Messi being there and if you look at it, those signings were nothing but a panic moves to satisfy the so called GOAT. Where's the new defenders for example? Where's the future CB when Pique is gone for example? They did invest like 400m straight to the attacking players, what kind of politics is that? And anybody who says they didn't do it for making Messi happier, to satisfy Messi or Messi even raising his voice to have some additions to the front line is just purely ignoring the facts. You just ain't throwing 400m to 3 attacking players, if goalscoring has never been the problem, do you? They could have bought quality CB(MDL, VVD) type of a player, they could have had great wingback if not on the left, but atleast on the right side replacing what Dani Alves was for them.

Was never done.




Well basically yes. There wouldn't be any problem Messi was willing to actually come forward little bit, so it would make managements job way easier as well. Now it's all just for gathering one player, instead of looking Barcelona as a team, as a club and investing little bit to the future as well. It's understandable tho, if i wanted to keep my job on the board, the first thing i'd probably do is to keep Messi happy but if i actually cared more about the club, i'd prob say it's time to adapt a little bit and tell this is what we're going to do, our core is too old and so on that would you like to be around, even we did some sort of clearance in here. If he agreed that he cares about the club that has given him everything, he would just give a little nod and be part of the rebuild with his full heart but if not, which would be understandable, he would try to find a new club with different ambitions.

It really ain't more complicated than that. Don't get mistaken tho, i really hope that core will be there till they're 40 and if there's something that makes me more happy than Barca losing games or doing bad, is only Inter doing the same. They're just a disgraceful club by all means.
The initial argument wasnt about Messi's character. Hes an asshole with gigantic ego. In fact I hope this season's failure was just a preview of worse things to come for Barcelona. The argument was whether he still is a great player since you kept downplaying his contribution over the last 5 years (hes a shadow of himself)as he was allegedly carried by his teammates to hit 60 g+a per season, which is laughable. You are even contradicting yourself, his teammates are carrying him to inflate his stats, but at the same time they arent good enough...
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
684
The initial argument wasnt about Messi's character. Hes an asshole with gigantic ego. In fact I hope this season's failure was just a preview of worse things to come for Barcelona. The argument was whether he still is a great player since you kept downplaying his contribution over the last 5 years (hes a shadow of himself)as he was allegedly carried by his teammates to hit 60 g+a per season, which is laughable. You are even contradicting yourself, his teammates are carrying him to inflate his stats, but at the same time they arent good enough...
Can we atleast agree that he's physically done? Or, let's say that he's physically done to play against the top teams of the world? Like, what are his stats past 5 years in NT + UCL beyond the group stage for example? Those are the games where's mostly quality teams left, excluding the few but in general, it's mostly way more even match ups compared to 500m budget Barca vs 50m Getafe. Those are the games you need to keep up with the game, instead of just jogging and walking around, so it would strongly suggest that his stats ain't anything spectacular in there.

Btw, every top "athlete" in any sports had gigantic ego. If you were happy at being second fill to nobody, you were never the best.
 
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