La Liga 2019/20 (4 Viewers)

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Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,812
Calma, Arnold. I didn't include them because it doesn't matter.

If you score and assist 50+ goals you hardly are a burden, not even if you move 100 meters per game. If anything, he keeps that sinking Barca ship afloat. But whatever.

Maybe try a 1000 letter post to win me over.
Of course it doesn't matter, it's a team game after all so :think: Do you realize why most of the players retire from the game, even they still kind of "got it"? It's purely the movement, they can't keep up with the game anymore etc. None of those retired legends never ran out of touch, never lost their game iq or anything but they just simply got caught by age and they prob felt like "fuck im getting carried around like a baby" and then decided it's time. You could bring back R9 if it was all about stats, he surely can't bag in a few here and there, just put him somewhere in the box and wala, he still has it. Even Pirlo ran quite alot on his 35s, he wasn't nowhere near a physical burden like Messi is.

1000 word post for the people who are desperately trying to search free streams for their favourite player to play or just for the people who can't even be bothered to do that and instead, are going straight to the google and googling their stats and thinking they know what they're talking about.
 

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Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,812
Messi is going to be first player ever to play on his 50s and still, have something like +50 goals/assists a season. I cannot see him stopping nowhere near in the future, by walking he can extend his career by 10-15 years easily.

People would still say 25+25 is still 25+25 :rofl:
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,249
Talk about being fixated over something, chill a bit. By the way @Osman is one of the more level headed guys here and certainly doesn't fit your ridiculous description of him.
I actually didn't read all that he wrote. Went over this in transfer thread, not doing it again, just warning others for that trap to make this thread about that again.

He thinks he can overcompensate the irrational fixation of "Messi bad" by writing 5 page essays. When its really not saying anything. There are flaws and issues to discuss, but not this, just a flat out wrong take to go the extremes he goes about Messi being a burden or being done as a top player 5 years ago (lol).
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,329
I actually didn't read all that he wrote. Went over this in transfer thread, not doing it again, just warning others for that trap to make this thread about that again.

He thinks he can overcompensate the irrational fixation of "Messi bad" by writing 5 page essays. When its really not saying anything. There are flaws and issues to discuss, but not this, just a flat out wrong take to go the extremes he goes about Messi being a burden or being done as a top player 5 years ago (lol).
The 50 gol+assist is very impressive indeed, but what if his productivity came at the expense of the team, the touches he requires, the others covering for him etc... Not to mention his toxic tendency to play favorites in any team he plays in.
Barca has started its steady decline ever since he became the undisputed leader of that team when iniesta left.
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,812
I actually didn't read all that he wrote. Went over this in transfer thread, not doing it again, just warning others for that trap to make this thread about that again.

He thinks he can overcompensate the irrational fixation of "Messi bad" by writing 5 page essays. When its really not saying anything. There are flaws and issues to discuss, but not this, just a flat out wrong take to go the extremes he goes about Messi being a burden or being done as a top player 5 years ago (lol).
It started from you or someone else saying something like they(Barca) been poor and it's managements fault. I just simply explained there's more truth in that, then like the typical fanboy would do, is to cover his face and literally refuse to believe that his player would be responsible for such a thing or even partly responsible, of course not all by himself. Yet again it just proves nobody from either side of these fanboys(Messi or Ronaldo) are capaple of having proper discussion and even less, taking some critique towards their favourite player.

Let's sign Pele while we're at it. Guy is a proven 50 goal a season scorer and with the help of stretches and limited playing time, he could do wonders. And that's just because movement ain't an issue.

:rolleyes2:
 
Jun 6, 2015
11,387
Of course it doesn't matter, it's a team game after all so :think: Do you realize why most of the players retire from the game, even they still kind of "got it"? It's purely the movement, they can't keep up with the game anymore etc. None of those retired legends never ran out of touch, never lost their game iq or anything but they just simply got caught by age and they prob felt like "fuck im getting carried around like a baby" and then decided it's time. You could bring back R9 if it was all about stats, he surely can't bag in a few here and there, just put him somewhere in the box and wala, he still has it. Even Pirlo ran quite alot on his 35s, he wasn't nowhere near a physical burden like Messi is.

1000 word post for the people who are desperately trying to search free streams for their favourite player to play or just for the people who can't even be bothered to do that and instead, are going straight to the google and googling their stats and thinking they know what they're talking about.
Thats's basically you though. Zero capability to be critical over your own ideas. You do know that you're not some universal voice of football knowledge and understanding? You're just another random fucker on the internet that thinks they have the superior opinions.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,600
It's not BS by any means and there's definitely alot truth in that. You're typical, "can't see behind the stats and not watching any games" guy. That whole circus at Barca, let me break it down for you:

1. Previous signings:

Look at the players, or more specificially attacking players they sold so Messi could play his role as a false 9. They had played like Eto'o who was forced out, Zlatan was there for a year, Henry was there couple seasons and had to play on the left more than as a ST, then those Villa's and Sanchez's before they got Suarez who's like a perfect fit for Messi. So basically they had like 5 different guys on a tryout before they found their guy.

2. Current signings:

Then you take a look at the recent signings after they sold Neymar. Desperately trying to get someone in return in order to keep Messi happy. They signed Dembele, Coutinho and Griezmann with zero clue if they have use for them, but just prob had the pressure to sign somebody so Messi wouldn't lose his mind. It's not necessarily Messi's fault, it's understandable that he demands certain things, but pleasing a guy who's like 31-33yr instead of doing what RM did and told Ronaldo he's free to go, was the right thing. Barca's board is too scared to do such a thing, and Messi demanding(or Messi being there demands, whatever) these things for his short term success instead of looking at the big picture and being part of the complete rebuild isn't something Messi is willing to do, so they need to invest around a 33yr old for next couple years, which is so god damn stupid management in a long run because they need certain type of players, instead of just thinking we're going to play football like this, we need these type of players but no, Messi wants free role and their signings are always making his game better or playing through him. Like, they haven't really invested on the defense at all, it's always attacking players but still not replacing Suarez, because he's Messi's bf.

3. The coach roulette:

Just checked they've had 9 coaches since Guardiola left in 2012 summer and that's ridicilous. The funniest in here is that Gerardo Martino was coach for Barcelona and for Argentina. Coincidence? I don't think so. He actually coached Newell Old Boys which is Messi's boyhood club, then from there he went straight to Barcelona and from Barcelona to Argentina NT coach and people seriously say, Messi has no say who's coach in there, or which players he prefers to sign. It ain't just the rumours it being like that, there's actually alot of things that supports it being more true, than not. There's been speculation about Xavi coming back to home, but im sure he won't come before that circus is over in there and that includes Messi and the old boys being gone, so he can actually focus on coaching.

4. Board:

How their management is supposed to do well, when they're so scared of Messi leaving while Messi giving all these demands or players/coaches he would prefer to have? They can't even make their own decisions, Messi is currently bigger than the club and they're shitting on their pants alongside of losing it and it's not just Barcelona who is scared, it's La Liga as well.


Final conclusion:



Once all this stops, there's going to be an anarchy in Barcelona and that's their club for +5 years and you all know it's going to happen. Pique cares more about making Catalonia independent or becoming the next President of Barcelona. Suarez and Messi will just agree eachothers for whatever. Bartomeu and co. can't walk on the streets of Barcelona for a while. Their fans will split up, Messi is retired nobody gives a fuck about Futbol Club Barcelona for a while. SO, i don't care how many goals or assists he has per season from now on, he is responsible as much as anybody, just by being who he is, just by not willing to see the big picture and wants to sacrifice whole club for his last years of hurray in order to have some individual success. If it wasn't like i said, he would have accepted a limited role, different role instead of that free role still at 33 and he would have accepted club attempting even some sort of rebuild while he's still playing. That would have been caring about the club but he clearly does not, that's why he sticks around with his demands till the death. How how many different athletes you've seen sticking around and sucking the playing time from the potential future stars? It has happened on so many sports, so many times and it never ended nothing but a total split between the team and player. You can take a look at RM for example, Ronaldo asked more money but RM said not going to happen, which was obviously smart in their part even they might have lost some money, but it allowed them to rebuild better which Barca can't obviously do as long as Messi is in there. Now you're saying "oh well but he still assists every game and scores 40 goals a season", but that's not the point, the point is that whole team needs to be surrounded around him and the more you prolong it, the bigger will be the causes in the future. He isn't 25, he isn't the future anymore and as long as you care about more about his stats which are obviously carried big time due his limited movement on the pitch, the longer it takes to recover from this whole mess. He is still best player in their club, but nowhere near a guy you should build around. He shouldn't even be playing 90mins a match if he can't run more than 5km per game, he's max 30-60min a game guy nowdays, yet you build around him and trying to make him being able to be part of game by playing so god damn slow.
Damn, we got another guy with the stats so the question goes, why don't you include ran km's for stats, for example? Oh ya, but we forgot it would make him look bad, but adding goals and assist actually makes him look good.

There we have it.
If he has 50 g+a, I wouldnt care if he crawls all over the pitch. But surely if he was such a burden to the team, his productivity would have been far inferior than 50 g+a and arguing that he is carried by his teammates to hit those stats is laughable :p. If all these great players from the past had banged as many goals as CR and Messi have these days in their 30s, they wouldnt have retired. Simple as that. Does he run as much as he did in his 20s? Ofc not. But pinning Barca's problems on Messi is senseless. Also consider what kind of team Barcelona was before Messi, basically eternal chokers, behind Real in every aspect of the game. Their rise and popularity was down to Messi, Id say 90% of it roughly. So he can pick coaches and teammates as long as he is maintaining high level of productivity, eventhough getting carried by his teammates :p. Football is a team sport afterall.

Btw I have never been a fan of garden gnome...
 

Pegi

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,812
If he has 50 g+a, I wouldnt care if he crawls all over the pitch. But surely if he was such a burden to the team, his productivity would have been far inferior than 50 g+a and arguing that he is carried by his teammates to hit those stats is laughable :p. If all these great players from the past had banged as many goals as CR and Messi have these days in their 30s, they wouldnt have retired. Simple as that. Does he run as much as he did in his 20s? Ofc not. But pinning Barca's problems on Messi is senseless. Also consider what kind of team Barcelona was before Messi, basically eternal chokers, behind Real in every aspect of the game. Their rise and popularity was down to Messi, Id say 90% of it roughly. So he can pick coaches and teammates as long as he is maintaining high level of productivity, eventhough getting carried by his teammates :p. Football is a team sport afterall.

Btw I have never been a fan of garden gnome...
It has been discussed before. If Messi played any individual sport in this world, he wouldn't cut it anymore. And yes, we're talking about the physically demanding sports, like condition based like football is. That's a testiment to the fact that he's getting carried by team m8s, atleast to some degree. He's way more reliant from team m8s he has than literally anybody nowdays. The less you move, the more you need your team m8s, it's a simple fact in team sports.

Thats's basically you though. Zero capability to be critical over your own ideas. You do know that you're not some universal voice of football knowledge and understanding? You're just another random fucker on the internet that thinks they have the superior opinions.
I don't care if im right or wrong and yes, and yes it's mostly opinion exluced the facts(stats and everything) but it's better to atleast have something you're basing on your opinions instead of just throwing out the words and tantrums when you disagree. Just like the people in here, you say something they disagree on and the first thing is literally trying to caps lock me to death because they disagreed. Fuck, be a man and say why you think differently instead of just basing your beliefs on something that was true +5 years ago. I know human mind works in a way that it always thinks it's young, like the results you've had in the past and you'd almost be you could still have the results you had in the past but once you hit the gym or treadmill or whatever, you realize that it ain't the truth anymore. Same goes with these fanboys, just cannot accept that their fav player is getting old, just like they're and Messi will forever be 25 for them, with the ability to get past 15 players in a game and run like a madman and Barca playing like it was under Guardiola.

Time to wake up or atleast come with somewhat decent explanation why you think Messi is still 25 and carries his team like never before.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,600
It has been discussed before. If Messi played any individual sport in this world, he wouldn't cut it anymore. And yes, we're talking about the physically demanding sports, like condition based like football is. That's a testiment to the fact that he's getting carried by team m8s, atleast to some degree. He's way more reliant from team m8s he has than literally anybody nowdays. The less you move, the more you need your team m8s, it's a simple fact in team sports.
You cant possibly know this. Ifs and buts. Your opinion isnt testament to the facts... What we do know is that he is still scoring bucketload of goals and adding as many assists. Saying hes been carried by his teammates to score 50 g+a sounds silly. Especially since this is prolly the weakest Barca in the last 15 years.

- - - Updated - - -

Time to wake up or atleast come with somewhat decent explanation why you think Messi is still 25 and carries his team like never before.
Who is saying this? But its legitimate to claim he has carried Barca to 2nd place, considering how effective he still is.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,249
Something that was true 5 years ago? You called his ACTUAL production and impactful performances as in what litterally leads to their wins, his goals and assists, as some kind of irrelevant factor to your argument of him being a finished player now. No one is talking about 5 years ago, the fact is just last season, he finished with contribution of 71 goals&assists in 49 games. Let that sink in, this not just stats, this litterally what he does on the pitch, what he is paid for. Who gives a damn if he is running less then the others, they can run less too if they can bring this to the table. No has ever had issue with Ronaldo coasting on D too, because he delivers.

Its "just stats" if its a dozen or so amount, or shy off 20 in full season (more then half of what he made people accostumed to), but not when its friggin 51 goals and 20 assists, averaging more then a goal a game, AND being the best creator around. Yes he is not the physical beast he was at his youth, limiting his work rate to just the final third, but for some bizzare reason the very FACT that he is still delivering tangible huge volume of goals and assist is irrelevant factor for you. Because you are already set your mind completely on that he is done as a player.


This not the impact of someone is finished or being carried, its absolute opposite. How are or why am I entertaining this madness? And anyone who actually acknowledges this mere obvious huge fact of his output is a Messi fanboy? Jesus, you are so foregone. Just look at how many are disagreeing with you, just let it sink in, this is Tuz, where Messi is hugely unpopular in and regurarly mocked. But no one is actually blind enough in their extreme phobia for him, to completely dismiss the actual fruit of his performances on the pitch. Massive amount of goals and assists. At 33. In worst Barca in ages. Llitterally makes no sense, one thing to say Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho carried him, even tho he was clearly the best one, but to say this current garbage Barca carries him????


I guess this historic freak, like Ronaldo, has moved the goal posts so high out of reach of the norm, that litterally maddening number of goals and assists, in what should be the end of the career, is taken for granted. To the point some random somewhat deranged psuedo expert online calling them finished for over 5 years now, despite litterally showing season by season they are not.
 
Last edited:
Jun 6, 2015
11,387
I don't care if im right or wrong and yes, and yes it's mostly opinion exluced the facts(stats and everything) but it's better to atleast have something you're basing on your opinions instead of just throwing out the words and tantrums when you disagree. Just like the people in here, you say something they disagree on and the first thing is literally trying to caps lock me to death because they disagreed. Fuck, be a man and say why you think differently instead of just basing your beliefs on something that was true +5 years ago. I know human mind works in a way that it always thinks it's young, like the results you've had in the past and you'd almost be you could still have the results you had in the past but once you hit the gym or treadmill or whatever, you realize that it ain't the truth anymore. Same goes with these fanboys, just cannot accept that their fav player is getting old, just like they're and Messi will forever be 25 for them, with the ability to get past 15 players in a game and run like a madman and Barca playing like it was under Guardiola.

Time to wake up or atleast come with somewhat decent explanation why you think Messi is still 25 and carries his team like never before.
In recent years top teams have definitely moved away from the concept of having those 2-3 players that don't add much defensively. However having one player that doesn't add much defensively isn't something a well build team cannot handle when that player adds as much going forward as Messi or Ronaldo for example do. Messi has never been some physically or defensively capable player, that's not something that his teams have ever expected of him. His job is to be the main threat in attack. Not sure why maximising on the attacking talent of one the greatest ever attacking players is now seen as a bad thing.

I do not like Messi the player or Messi the person, not the biggest fan of Ronaldo either. I nowadays totally prefer players that pull their weight both with and without the ball. However saying that Messi is being "carried" by his team is complete hyperbole and has really no basis in reality. By your logic we could take pretty much any great attacking player of the past 100 years and claim he was carried by his team because he didn't run and defend enough. Top attacking talents have always been given more freedom defensively.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
51,815
In La Liga it's 2 points without Messi playing and around 2.156 with him playing. Hasn't really missed many games though so can't really read anything from it.
I looked at all competitions, and yes it's 7 games he's missed. I just don't think they're a 40-50pts team without him, but still a at minimum 70pts team, not far off from what they're now. They've got quality in all areas
 
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