Kingsley Coman (17 Viewers)

[kao_ray]

Funny thing is that Nedved was an example to follow in training And as I remember his former coach at Sparta Prague said that this was the main factor for Nedved's development.

 

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[KB824]

I have no issues with Max not playing the younger players if they are not showing that they are deserving of such during training.

You just don't throw youth out there for the sake of it. They have to earn it, as you can't give these kids a sense of entitlement.

Now, the only issue that I WOULD have is if they were performing in training, but Max chose not to start them because of their youth. That would be wrong to do so, but since none of us are there, we can only assume that playing time is earned through outshining others in training. A meritocracy, the way it should be.

I think a lot of Juve fans were spoiled by what Pogba has been able to accomplish in such a short amount of time, and assuming that any youth product from an established club that Juve have pried away will be the next Paul, which is almost impossible. Pogba was the exception to end all exceptions. You simply don't procure world class talent like that from under someone's nose. I honestly can't even recall the last time that has happened. The fuckup of all fuckups if you are Manchester United.


Granted, Coman has shown ability when he has been given the opportunity, but Juve are not a club that needs to throw this kid into the fire. They have enough quality to where they can take their time with him. He doesn't turn 19 until June.

And this is coming from someone who was screaming for a housecleaning and a youth movement when Juve got relegated, so my stance on developing young talent is not new to anyone who has been around here for a while.

 

[Raz]

Isn't it early for you to be making such good points?

Anyways, tell that to ferguson in regards to Pogba.

Or better yet, every coach who coached giovinco.

Can't agree more with what @swag said. Youth shouldn't be a priority just because of some football manager fantasy.

Plus the kid is only 18 year old if i'm correct.

 

[Nzoric]

Exactly. We are not inter to purchase talents and then throw them straight into the furnace by giving them key roles in key matches off the bat. If we were desperate for results it would be a last resort, but we are anything but desparate right now.

 

[swag]

Pogba clearly managed to get a hell of a lot of first-team time despite his youth when he first got here, and it all shows. Conte could not bench his talent and even had to alter formations just to get him on the pitch.

Now I would love for nothing more than Coman to become "the next Pogba" (as he was billed as recently as this summer). But I also have to imagine the likes of Conte and Max have "the next ___" prodigies showering out of their asses ... and only if they "gave them more playing time".

 

[Post Ironic]

It's true to an extent. As an individual, if you're a forward and haven't learn how to shoot, pass, dribble and position yourself by the time you're professional, you're a lost cause. Training ain't magic.

Yep. Playing the game excessively as a child, especially in a non-structured, not overly training-oriented way as a child is where ability, skill, and talent develop. Once your matured, you can improve technique through repetition and physical fitness, but talent and skill in a sense better be there in spades already.

 

[Hust]

Or better yet, every coach who coached giovinco.

Can't agree more with what @swag said. Youth shouldn't be a priority just because of some football manager fantasy.

Plus the kid is only 18 year old if i'm correct.

So, how is giving Coman 15-20 mins every couple of games making "youth a priority"?

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Exactly. We are not inter to purchase talents and then throw them straight into the furnace by giving them key roles in key matches off the bat. If we were desperate for results it would be a last resort, but we are anything but desparate right now.

Again, giving someone a key role is giving them a guaranteed starting spot. Having them get playing time in the second half of games when are we clearly winning isn't giving someone a key role.

We happen to have a 44 goals for, 9 goals against record...how the hell isn't their more playing time for a youth to come on from time to time when the game is in the bag?

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I have no issues with Max not playing the younger players if they are not showing that they are deserving of such during training.

You just don't throw youth out there for the sake of it. They have to earn it, as you can't give these kids a sense of entitlement.

Now, the only issue that I WOULD have is if they were performing in training, but Max chose not to start them because of their youth. That would be wrong to do so, but since none of us are there, we can only assume that playing time is earned through outshining others in training. A meritocracy, the way it should be.

I think a lot of Juve fans were spoiled by what Pogba has been able to accomplish in such a short amount of time, and assuming that any youth product from an established club that Juve have pried away will be the next Paul, which is almost impossible. Pogba was the exception to end all exceptions. You simply don't procure world class talent like that from under someone's nose. I honestly can't even recall the last time that has happened. The fuckup of all fuckups if you are Manchester United.


Granted, Coman has shown ability when he has been given the opportunity, but Juve are not a club that needs to throw this kid into the fire. They have enough quality to where they can take their time with him. He doesn't turn 19 until June.

And this is coming from someone who was screaming for a housecleaning and a youth movement when Juve got relegated, so my stance on developing young talent is not new to anyone who has been around here for a while.

True that Juve has the quality off the bench but that quality also includes Coman. Now, I've seen from quite a few people here during games screaming for "Coman for this player; Coman at halftime; Coman for pace/taking on defenders; etc", and that includes you. It's interesting to see how the tune changes when we aren't in the middle of a game where we need something different in attack and people are calling for Coman then somehow between games we start seeing arguments where "well, depends on what he is producing in practice". Fact of the matter is, he wouldn't be on the Juve bench at 18 years old if he wasn't producing SOMETHING worthwhile in training.

Now, as you also know, I'm in the same camp as you in regards to youth players but I believe in games like yesterday or other games where the fate has been all but sealed we need to see him and not the Padoins/Pereyras/Giovincos sort of subs.

 

[swag]

So, how is giving Coman 15-20 mins every couple of games making "youth a priority"?

Just take the Giovinco vs. Coman argument as a sub, for example.

One has busted his ass for years in training, only to sit on the bench patiently year after year after year. He developed himself, he succeeded at other clubs, and he was ready to go when the coach called for him. He's also experienced in a way that a new kid would not be.

So what you do is completely demoralize that player and all of his teammates by showing favoritism instead in starting some relatively unproven kid who is the latest "great potential" of the month, who hasn't worked as hard or as long in training, who has not bid his time nearly as long on the bench, who is not as experienced in competitive matches, etc., etc.

Congratulations: you just created an entire squad that resents the coach.

 

[Hust]

Just close those fat lips of yours you silly bugger.

He's looked like a headless chicken for 90% of his time on the pitch so far.

Disagree. For 18 years old the kid has show a lot of composure especially with his passing (or the idea but not always lacking in end product) but that's standard of a kid. It's obvious most everyone knows where I stand on youth and boy do I LOVE youth but I don't think they need to start every game like some people will argue that is where I stand. It isn't. Some games where we are winning by a goal in the last 25-30 mins of a game it makes more sense to sub someone safe like Padoin on, for example, but when the game is in the bag then it makes perfect sense to let the kid spread his wings a bit. When we are dominating or winning by 2 or more goals there is little pressure for him to perform for the sake of the team rather than getting comfortable in a team like Juve.

One thing you will never get in practice is real game experience where you can manage the butterflies/nerves.


And I happen to have adorable lips. @Dule90

 

[Lion]

except giovinco is shit. he is also shit that we cant sell, and is leaving, therefore his motivation to prove himself is zero. w gain nothing by playing him.

 

[Dostoevsky]

And I happen to have adorable lips. @Dule90

Yep.

Just ask @mypenis

 

[Lion]

Pogba clearly managed to get a hell of a lot of first-team time despite his youth when he first got here, and it all shows. Conte could not bench his talent and even had to alter formations just to get him on the pitch.

Now I would love for nothing more than Coman to become "the next Pogba" (as he was billed as recently as this summer). But I also have to imagine the likes of Conte and Max have "the next ___" prodigies showering out of their asses ... and only if they "gave them more playing time".

pogba would have been barely used too. it was only marchisio's long term injury, and conte's stubbornes to use asa as a cm that allowed pogb to be undipusted starter.

 

[Hust]

Just take the Giovinco vs. Coman argument as a sub, for example.

One has busted his ass for years in training, only to sit on the bench patiently year after year after year. He developed himself, he succeeded at other clubs, and he was ready to go when the coach called for him. He's also experienced in a way that a new kid would not be.

So what you do is completely demoralize that player and all of his teammates by showing favoritism instead in starting some relatively unproven kid who is the latest "great potential" of the month, who hasn't worked as hard or as long in training, who has not bid his time nearly as long on the bench, who is not as experienced in competitive matches, etc., etc.

Congratulations: you just created an entire squad that resents the coach.

So, we are worried about Coman having more end product as a kid and how that might reflect on the more senior members who don't have that end product? We can't operate for the sake of hurting someone's feelings. It doesn't work that way.

To counter your argument...who hit the bench out of our midfield when Pogba came? It wasn't Pirlo. Wasn't Vidal. Exclude Pogba and that leaves Marchisio getting bench time. By your argument, he has been here busting his ass for years to have a 19 year old bench him by an Italian coach who likes Marchisio. Was Marchisio's reaction to demoralize and self-implode? Nope, he took his chances and took them well and continued with the same fighting spirit he always had and we have anything BUT a squad that resented the coach.

 

[swag]

except giovinco is shit. he is also shit that we cant sell, and is leaving, therefore his motivation to prove himself is zero. w gain nothing by playing him.

This is where you're clueless about team dynamics. Instead of thinking like an administrator, think like a coach. Giovinco has worked long and hard along his teammates. He's developed a rapport in the locker room over the years.

If a coach just gives him the "fuck off, you're worthless to me", what message is he sending all of Giovinco's locker room teammates about how they will be treated respectfully when they are injured, when they have trained hard but are experiencing a bad patch of form, when there are transfer rumors about them being wanted by other clubs, etc.

This is what managers must do to manage morale and team spirit in the locker room. Athletes may be cattle, but treating them like cattle on top of that just gives you a Blanc problem.

 

[Hust]

Yep.

Just ask @mypenis

 

[swag]

So, we are worried about Coman having more end product as a kid and how that might reflect on the more senior members who don't have that end product? We can't operate for the sake of hurting someone's feelings. It doesn't work that way.

What amazing corpus of end product does Coman have to show for himself to justify why he should be benching other players who have trained harder and longer than him in the squad?

To counter your argument...who hit the bench out of our midfield when Pogba came? It wasn't Pirlo. Wasn't Vidal. Exclude Pogba and that leaves Marchisio getting bench time. By your argument, he has been here busting his ass for years to have a 19 year old bench him by an Italian coach who likes Marchisio. Was Marchisio's reaction to demoralize and self-implode? Nope, he took his chances and took them well and continued with the same fighting spirit he always had and we have anything BUT a squad that resented the coach.

The difference is that you're talking about benching Marchisio because there are better starting options. That's not the same as not giving Coman a sub in late in the game because you want to give an unproven kid more experience in a real match.

 

[Raz]

Anyway I'm all up for seeing more Coman and I hope he will the next Messi if possible. But ranting that a 18 year old new signing doesn't get playing time constantly is a bit of overkill.

If he's good he will get his chance. We haven't seen him in training so we don't know really what is happening there. And what is the point in giving him 5-10 minutes at all above the rest of the squad, has he proved more then them? Time will come for him if he's that good.

 

[Hust]

What amazing corpus of end product does Coman have to show for himself to justify why he should be benching other players who have trained harder and longer than him in the squad?



The difference is that you're talking about benching Marchisio because there are better starting options. That's not the same as not giving Coman a sub in late in the game because you want to give an unproven kid more experience in a real match.

Aside from the spectacular goal last week, one great individual effort earlier this season that led to a goal, and some very impressive attacking that gets himself into positions to offer up some assist opportunities for the strikers. I'd be interested to see what more to his "end product" he would deliver if he was given some more PT.

Again, do you think Marchisio believed he couldn't contribute to the team equally as a 19 year old? Marchisio was on fire Conte's first season then had an unfortunate span of injuries that Lion brought up. How else is a young player expected to get better? By getting experience. Now, Juve must seem to think the kid is good enough for the first team because he is still here and hasn't been loaned out to get experience so there is obviously a spark there somewhere.

 

[Lion]

This is where you're clueless about team dynamics. Instead of thinking like an administrator, think like a coach. Giovinco has worked long and hard along his teammates. He's developed a rapport in the locker room over the years.

If a coach just gives him the "fuck off, you're worthless to me", what message is he sending all of Giovinco's locker room teammates about how they will be treated respectfully when they are injured, when they have trained hard but are experiencing a bad patch of form, when there are transfer rumors about them being wanted by other clubs, etc.

This is what managers must do to manage morale and team spirit in the locker room. Athletes may be cattle, but treating them like cattle on top of that just gives you a Blanc problem.

you say this as if giovinco is first team undipsuted starter going through a bad form and we suddenly want to drop him. no this is a player that is shit, and he no longer is needed or even valuable to juve as an asset.

and your theory is wrong. we did fine in conte's seasons despite him not playing, amauri, krasic, elia, benching matri for a shit boriello, not offering del piero a new contract.

so wrong you are

 

[Hust]

We haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what Coman can offer. As for as safety subs like Padoin we already know what we will get.