Israeli-Palestinian conflict (39 Viewers)

[maxi]

Why is Hamas considered the essence of the Palestinian people to you?

Because they were elected by them, and are supported by them. Polls as recently as last month suggest that 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 59% of Palestinians reject the idea of a two-state solution. The number is even higher among the younger generations who are, unsurprisingly, the loudest in Anti-Israeli activism. Another poll from the same year showed that most Palestinians want to reclaim all of historic Palestine, including pre-1967 Israel. These sentiments, like I said, were very much the case before the attack took place, and I'm not suggesting that they somehow deserve the treatment that they're getting either. I'm merely highlighting that anti-Israeli sentiments were prevalent before the Israeli 'genocide' and aren't some novelty borne as an 'understandable' consequence of the "30k dead".

Hamas doesn't exist with an independent Palestinian state

They will exist for as long as Israel exists, irrespective of whether a two-state solution is achieved.

 

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[AFL_ITALIA]

Because they were elected by them, and are supported by them. Polls as recently as last month suggest that 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack.

As was Israeli's far-right coalition government. What would you have expected to happen though, civilians that have to pass through checkpoints everyday to go about their daily life or watch family members be detained on no charges to not want to tear that down by any means? Be realistic. Like you said below, this didn't start in October. Actions generate reactions, and desperate ones even moreso. An independent and stable Palestinian state doesn't elect a Hamas, just as a Germany not starving and desperate do not elect a Hitler.

In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 59% of Palestinians reject the idea of a two-state solution. The number is even higher among the younger generations who are, unsurprisingly, the loudest in Anti-Israeli activism. Another poll from the same year showed that most Palestinians want to reclaim all of historic Palestine, including pre-1967 Israel. These sentiments, like I said, were very much the case before the attack took place, and I'm not suggesting that they somehow deserve the treatment that they're getting either. I'm merely highlighting that anti-Israeli sentiments were prevalent before the Israeli 'genocide' and aren't some novelty borne as an 'understandable' consequence of the "30k dead".

Do you not expect this though? Lets be realistic here, if you grew up seeing yourself and everyone around you be treated as a second-class citizen in a mass prison in the best of times, naturally they're going to hate their oppressor, they're going to want them destroyed. I know I would, and I know that you would too. We both know that this didn't start on October 7th as you said, so why pretend that it did? It's not a consequence of 30k dead, it's a consequence of generations of oppression. And you put genocide in quotes, but what would you call it then? It's bombing fish in a barrel.

It doesn't matter what most Palestinians "want," because they'll have to take what they can get as an independent state. Once people have actual stability and control over their future, equations change with time. Afterall, it worked before didn't it?

They will exist for as long as Israel exists, irrespective of whether a two-state solution is achieved.

I disagree. HOWEVER, if this massacre were to stop literally right now, damage done doesn't disappear. You have entire generations bombed into nothing, hatred will obviously remain for a very, very long time. But again, why would we expect different?

But enough of this, lets look at your original post:

Neither do Free Palestinian supporters, let's be honest. Most of them are likely just arab/muslim supremacists using the human tragedy occurring there as a smokescreen for their antisemitism.

How can you, taking the above into account and that it is by your own admission a human tragedy, then say that it doesn't matter and is just based in prejudice for the majority of people? This is what I take issue with.

 

[campionesidd]

As was Israeli's far-right coalition government. What would you have expected to happen though, civilians that have to pass through checkpoints everyday to go about their daily life or watch family members be detained on no charges to not want to tear that down by any means? Be realistic. Like you said below, this didn't start in October. Actions generate reactions, and desperate ones even moreso. An independent and stable Palestinian state doesn't elect a Hamas, just as a Germany not starving and desperate do not elect a Hitler.


Do you not expect this though? Lets be realistic here, if you grew up seeing yourself and everyone around you be treated as a second-class citizen in a mass prison in the best of times, naturally they're going to hate their oppressor, they're going to want them destroyed. I know I would, and I know that you would too. We both know that this didn't start on October 7th as you said, so why pretend that it did? It's not a consequence of 30k dead, it's a consequence of generations of oppression. And you put genocide in quotes, but what would you call it then? It's bombing fish in a barrel.

It doesn't matter what most Palestinians "want," because they'll have to take what they can get as an independent state. Once people have actual stability and control over their future, equations change with time. Afterall, it worked before didn't it?


I disagree. HOWEVER, if this massacre were to stop literally right now, damage done doesn't disappear. You have entire generations bombed into nothing, hatred will obviously remain for a very, very long time. But again, why would we expect different?

But enough of this, lets look at your original post:

How can you, taking the above into account and that it is by your own admission a human tragedy, then say that it doesn't matter and is just based in prejudice for the majority of people? This is what I take issue with.

I don’t give unsolicited advice, but I’ll make an exception this time: Don’t waste your time with him.

 

[maxi]

As was Israeli's far-right coalition government. What would you have expected to happen though, civilians that have to pass through checkpoints everyday to go about their daily life or watch family members be detained on no charges to not want to tear that down by any means? Be realistic. Like you said below, this didn't start in October. Actions generate reactions, and desperate ones even moreso. An independent and stable Palestinian state doesn't elect a Hamas, just as a Germany not starving and desperate do not elect a Hitler.

Yes, precisely. Most of the conflicts since Israel's creation were provoked either by the Arab League or, in October 7th's case, Hamas. A two state solution already existed in the past and the Arabs blew it because they couldn't live to see an independent Jewish state. Paragraph 3 of the Khartoum Resolution stated: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it". The 6 day war happened and they lost. A matter of fuck around and find out. Hamas pretty much re-confirmed that paragraph 3 in their 1988 charter, and then again in their 2017 version. A compete refusal to recognise Israel. Whether Israel's actions since then have been proportionate is another question, but to assert that Hamas is merely a reactionary product of recent wrongdoings by Israel is just false. Palestinians, Arabs.. most of them have been opposed to Israel existing from the very start. Of course it has a lot to do with nationalism and religious/territorial pride. They fought through 4 fricking crusades to protect the Holy Land and keep it under their domain for well more than a millenia. They were never going to give it up so easily.

How can you, taking the above into account and that it is by your own admission a human tragedy, then say that it doesn't matter and is just based in prejudice for the majority of people? This is what I take issue with.

I wasn't referring to Palestinians themselves but moreso hypocrites like Erdogan and his cult. Assad wipes out half a million people? No outrage, no mass protests in London. Saudi bombs the shit out of Yemen? Who cares. But where they draw the line is when Jews are involved and are the perceived "oppressors" against their Muslim brethren.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Yes, precisely. Most of the conflicts since Israel's creation were provoked either by the Arab League or, in October 7th's case, Hamas. A two state solution already existed in the past and the Arabs blew it because they couldn't live to see an independent Jewish state.

Are you sure that was the reason? Let me ask you, if a foreign government came in and declared that your home is now under the control of some new government that doesn't represent you and seeks to displace you, if you do everything you can to fight back then is it because "you couldn't live to see it?" If China says the northeast US now belongs to Russia, yeah I'd want to fight back too.

Paragraph 3 of the Khartoum Resolution stated: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it". The 6 day war happened and they lost. A matter of fuck around and find out. Hamas pretty much re-confirmed that paragraph 3 in their 1988 charter, and then again in their 2017 version. A compete refusal to recognise Israel. Whether Israel's actions since then have been proportionate is another question, but to assert that Hamas is merely a reactionary product of recent wrongdoings by Israel is just false.

Point out where I asserted this. I have suggested and outright said the opposite multiple times in fact:

We both know that this didn't start on October 7th as you said, so why pretend that it did? It's not a consequence of 30k dead, it's a consequence of generations of oppression.

I wasn't referring to Palestinians themselves but moreso hypocrites like Erdogan and his cult. Assad wipes out half a million people? No outrage, no mass protests in London. Saudi bombs the shit out of Yemen? Who cares. But where they draw the line is when Jews are involved and are the perceived "oppressors" against their Muslim brethren.

This is far more understandable then. You increasingly have middle eastern nations normalizing relations with Israel as well, so I don't think it's as big of a party as you think outside of people directly impacted.

Palestinians, Arabs.. most of them have been opposed to Israel existing from the very start. Of course it has a lot to do with nationalism and religious/territorial pride. They fought through 4 fricking crusades to protect the Holy Land and keep it under their domain for well more than a millenia. They were never going to give it up so easily.

So this is a religion thing for you then? You're taking this to a place that I have no desire to go, so lets end it here because I have no desire to devolve this into Elvin-level posting.

 

[maxi]

Are you sure that was the reason? Let me ask you, if a foreign government came in and declared that your home is now under the control of some new government that doesn't represent you and seeks to displace you, if you do everything you can to fight back then is it because "you couldn't live to see it?" If China says the northeast US now belongs to Russia, yeah I'd want to fight back too.

I'm referring specifically to the Arab League nations here like Jordan and Egypt who were originally the ones in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip respectively. Palestine didn't break the 1949 Armistice Agreements, they did. If there's anyone to blame for the failure of the 2 state solution its them. Totally unecessary. Yet Israel gets the blame.

I'm confused, do you or do you not believe in a two state solution now? Because it seems now you're suggesting that the formation of Israel in of itself was wrong and unfair.

Point out where I asserted this. I have suggested and outright said the opposite multiple times in fact:

By "recent wrongdoings" I wasn't merely implying October 7th but the events in the 90s and 00s that led to the election of Hamas.

So this is a religion thing for you then? You're taking this to a place that I have no desire to go, so lets end it here because I have no desire to devolve this into Elvin-level posting.

If you can't see how religion is heavily intertwined with the pan-islamic unity against Israel then I don't know what to say really. With the exception of four countries (Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela), the countries that do not recognize Israel are all Muslim. You literally had a Joint Arab Islamic Extraordinary Summit in November, exclusive to Islamic countries only, which sought a strategy against Israel. If not for religion, then where are these kind of summits for other genocides, especially considering that one of those present was the genocidal maniac Assad himself?

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I don’t give unsolicited advice, but I’ll make an exception this time: Don’t waste your time with him.

Again, for someone who has me on ignore you still seem awfully obsessed with my posts.

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And you put genocide in quotes, but what would you call it then?

The ICJ doesn't seem to think it's a genocide either, so...

 

[U Picciriddu]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/27/...l-hamas-october-7-allegations-intl/index.html

 

[Mohad]

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

The most obvious solution to this is to disband the quasi-religious Israel nation state and make the secular Jews live somewhere else or create an entirely new secular state somewhere far from the Middle Earth I mean middle east, hint : Australia is very sparsely populated, just go there ffs.

Let the 3 religious freaks groups see for themselves that there's no yhwh, no jesus, no allah, no messiah, no 2nd coming, no mahdi, no false prophet no holy place, no war to bring the end times, blablabla whatsoever in the lalalaland...

Fuck did we do to deserve this bullshit yo?

Let us fight over bullshit like “Change the date!” and which footy team is better instead of this complex and ancient religious/geopolitical bullshit

 

[Fr3sh]

Gonna need @maxi to explain this with some high level hasbara here

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

did she survive the encounter? it looked like she got circled by a cannibal tribe then video abruptly ends.

 

[AlexDP705]

The ICJ doesn't seem to think it's a genocide either, so...

That's simply not true. This interim ruling wasn't to determine if Israel are definitively guilty of genocide or not (a decision that will likely take years) but to decide if there was a plausible case of genocide, and if so to proceed with a more thorough investigation/trial. The court found that there was a plausible case of genocide being committed, presenting as fact evidence of genocidal actions and genocidal intent. All of Israel's arguments to have the case dismissed lost.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/27/...l-hamas-october-7-allegations-intl/index.html

Western states simultaneously crippling the organization providing shelter and humanitarian aid to 2 million people at risk of famine immediately after the ICJ had ordered Israel to ensure more aid reaches Gazans is cartoonishly evil. Very obviously a planned move to take the media spotlight away from ICJ ruling and to undermine the evidence UNRWA had provided to the case. Coincidently UNRWA is the entity through which millions of Palestinian refugees claim a right to return.

 

[maxi]

The court found that there was a plausible case of genocide being committed, presenting as fact evidence of genocidal actions and genocidal intent.

And then stopped short of even calling for a ceasefire, enabling Israel to continue with their assault. So make of that what you will.

 

[AlexDP705]

And then stopped short of even calling for a ceasefire, enabling Israel to continue with their assault. So make of that what you will.

A “ceasefire” could be ordered by ICJ if two states are involved. Palestine is not a state and Hamas a non-state actor. Again, the court ruled that there was a plausible case of genocide, and ordered Israel to immediately stop genocidal acts including killing Palestinians in Gaza. There’s no way for Israel to effectively comply with these orders without a negotiated ceasefire.

Of course Israel can just ignore any order from the ICJ (as it has been doing, reportedly killing another 400+ civilians since the ruling) because ultimately they need to be enforced, typically by a UNSC resolution which would likely be vetoed by the US anyway.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

did she survive the encounter? it looked like she got circled by a cannibal tribe then video abruptly ends.

random off topic question:

is Altinok a common Turkish surname?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

random off topic question:

is Altinok a common Turkish surname?

yes, it means golden arrow.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

yes, it means golden arrow.

I have neighbours with that surname. Lovely people. Turkish food

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

I have neighbours with that surname. Lovely people. Turkish food

Good for you.

 

[Tomice]

@Tomice you alright?

Crossed back to Israel this sunday, a few more days and we will go back home. Long, intense 4 months man but I'm good.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

House fails to pass standalone Israel aid bill as Senate package stalls

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-of-representatives-israel-aid-vote-mike-johnson/

$17.6 billion.