30k dead civilians and this BS gets posted.
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Israeli-Palestinian conflict (33 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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A pro-israeli American in Burlington City Council hearing, trying to argue against another Jewish American who spoke before her, who was speaking against the Gaza massacres, and had compared it how she lost family in holocaust genocide and thats why she cant stand for another.
Then the pro Israeli student turn to rebuttal wanted to deny it is, and it went like this:
Then the pro Israeli student turn to rebuttal wanted to deny it is, and it went like this:
Well I disagree. Believe it or not there's genuine people who are concerned about what's happening and they are surely neither supremacists nor antisemitic... that excuse is getting old and boring.
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She needs some coaching from Hill and Knowlton in the future.
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A pro-israeli American in Burlington City Council hearing, trying to argue against another Jewish American who spoke before her, who was speaking against the Gaza massacres, and had compared it how she lost family in holocaust genocide and thats why she cant stand for another.
Then the pro Israeli student turn to rebuttal wanted to deny it is, and it went like this:
Then the pro Israeli student turn to rebuttal wanted to deny it is, and it went like this:
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This was the case long before that happened. Don't even try denying it.
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I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who care about the humanity of the situation. But for years this conflict has been used as a front for Arab/Muslim v Jew/West sentiments. There is a reason you don't hear the same level of outrage when other massacres of the same if not worse scale occur across the globe.
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I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who care about the humanity of the situation. But for years this conflict has been used as a front for Arab/Muslim v Jew/West sentiments. There is a reason you don't hear the same level of outrage when other massacres of the same if not worse scale occur across the globe.
The most obvious solution to this is to disband the quasi-religious Israel nation state and make the secular Jews live somewhere else or create an entirely new secular state somewhere far from the Middle Earth I mean middle east, hint : Australia is very sparsely populated, just go there ffs.
Let the 3 religious freaks groups see for themselves that there's no yhwh, no jesus, no allah, no messiah, no 2nd coming, no mahdi, no false prophet no holy place, no war to bring the end times, blablabla whatsoever in the lalalaland...
Let the 3 religious freaks groups see for themselves that there's no yhwh, no jesus, no allah, no messiah, no 2nd coming, no mahdi, no false prophet no holy place, no war to bring the end times, blablabla whatsoever in the lalalaland...
Honestly if you just drop them somewhere in the outback, they might not even notice.
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https://www.demorgen.be/nieuws/waar...nternationaal-gerechtshof-zinvol-is~b7f0f92d/
I know most of you don't understand Dutch.
Basically the article is an opinion about why Belgium should support South Africa's claim of Israel's genocidal conduct before the ICJ. The opinion itself is not all that revolutionary, but it's remarkable who signed off on it. Most of them are legal scholars and some of them have decades of experience in teaching international law. I don't know these people as extremists or even as confrontational. In fact, I'd say I known them as rather hesitant to share their opinion. That these people, who spent an entire career studying this particular subject, claim this is genocide, means something to me.
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https://www.demorgen.be/nieuws/waar...nternationaal-gerechtshof-zinvol-is~b7f0f92d/
I know most of you don't understand Dutch.
Basically the article is an opinion about why Belgium should support South Africa's claim of Israel's genocidal conduct before the ICJ. The opinion itself is not all that revolutionary, but it's remarkable who signed off on it. Most of them are legal scholars and some of them have decades of experience in teaching international law. I don't know these people as extremists or even as confrontational. In fact, I'd say I known them as rather hesitant to share their opinion. That these people, who spent an entire career studying this particular subject, claim this is genocide, means something to me.
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Ideally, Australia would accept it, there are predictions that with climate change Australia would have a booming agriculture due to the outback region climate getting more wet and then more people would migrate and etc
Besides, secular Jews would be one group of people that a country like Australia would have little problem accepting in theory.
I mean what else can realistically be done? As long as there are at the very least several millions of people who have irrational attachment to that area, this thing would always have bloodbaths... That's a several million number count, in reality there are billions of people who hold irrational attachment to that place.
Especially when that irrational attachment tells them that it is somehow connected to their very existence.
Besides, secular Jews would be one group of people that a country like Australia would have little problem accepting in theory.
I mean what else can realistically be done? As long as there are at the very least several millions of people who have irrational attachment to that area, this thing would always have bloodbaths... That's a several million number count, in reality there are billions of people who hold irrational attachment to that place.
Especially when that irrational attachment tells them that it is somehow connected to their very existence.
It really doesn't, but go off. There are idiots on both sides of the conflict who want to dismiss the 2 state solution, but to deny that Israel's existence has fueled Arab/Muslim supremacist sentiments is simply being ignorant.
Chants like "From the River to the Sea" for example aren't some harmless nursery rhymes. They are explicit calls for the eradication of Israel that have been used since the 60s, long before the events of October 7th. You just have to take one look at Hamas' charter and the level of involvement of Muslim nations around the world to know what I mean (looking at Turkey, Iran e.t.c.).
Chants like "From the River to the Sea" for example aren't some harmless nursery rhymes. They are explicit calls for the eradication of Israel that have been used since the 60s, long before the events of October 7th. You just have to take one look at Hamas' charter and the level of involvement of Muslim nations around the world to know what I mean (looking at Turkey, Iran e.t.c.).
Why does the extreme become the poster child in your head of the view you oppose? Why is Hamas considered the essence of the Palestinian people to you? All of your arguments here are just an appeal to extremes.
Hamas doesn't exist with an independent Palestinian state, just as the King David Hotel doesn't get bombed with an independent Jewish state. Next I fear you may claim Israel should be eradicated because of Israeli settlers, they hold power in Israel too with an army to back them up as you can see after all.
Hamas doesn't exist with an independent Palestinian state, just as the King David Hotel doesn't get bombed with an independent Jewish state. Next I fear you may claim Israel should be eradicated because of Israeli settlers, they hold power in Israel too with an army to back them up as you can see after all.
Because they were elected by them, and are supported by them. Polls as recently as last month suggest that 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 59% of Palestinians reject the idea of a two-state solution. The number is even higher among the younger generations who are, unsurprisingly, the loudest in Anti-Israeli activism. Another poll from the same year showed that most Palestinians want to reclaim all of historic Palestine, including pre-1967 Israel. These sentiments, like I said, were very much the case before the attack took place, and I'm not suggesting that they somehow deserve the treatment that they're getting either. I'm merely highlighting that anti-Israeli sentiments were prevalent before the Israeli 'genocide' and aren't some novelty borne as an 'understandable' consequence of the "30k dead".
They will exist for as long as Israel exists, irrespective of whether a two-state solution is achieved.
They will exist for as long as Israel exists, irrespective of whether a two-state solution is achieved.
As was Israeli's far-right coalition government. What would you have expected to happen though, civilians that have to pass through checkpoints everyday to go about their daily life or watch family members be detained on no charges to not want to tear that down by any means? Be realistic. Like you said below, this didn't start in October. Actions generate reactions, and desperate ones even moreso. An independent and stable Palestinian state doesn't elect a Hamas, just as a Germany not starving and desperate do not elect a Hitler.
Do you not expect this though? Lets be realistic here, if you grew up seeing yourself and everyone around you be treated as a second-class citizen in a mass prison in the best of times, naturally they're going to hate their oppressor, they're going to want them destroyed. I know I would, and I know that you would too. We both know that this didn't start on October 7th as you said, so why pretend that it did? It's not a consequence of 30k dead, it's a consequence of generations of oppression. And you put genocide in quotes, but what would you call it then? It's bombing fish in a barrel.
It doesn't matter what most Palestinians "want," because they'll have to take what they can get as an independent state. Once people have actual stability and control over their future, equations change with time. Afterall, it worked before didn't it?
I disagree. HOWEVER, if this massacre were to stop literally right now, damage done doesn't disappear. You have entire generations bombed into nothing, hatred will obviously remain for a very, very long time. But again, why would we expect different?
But enough of this, lets look at your original post:
How can you, taking the above into account and that it is by your own admission a human tragedy, then say that it doesn't matter and is just based in prejudice for the majority of people? This is what I take issue with.
Do you not expect this though? Lets be realistic here, if you grew up seeing yourself and everyone around you be treated as a second-class citizen in a mass prison in the best of times, naturally they're going to hate their oppressor, they're going to want them destroyed. I know I would, and I know that you would too. We both know that this didn't start on October 7th as you said, so why pretend that it did? It's not a consequence of 30k dead, it's a consequence of generations of oppression. And you put genocide in quotes, but what would you call it then? It's bombing fish in a barrel.
It doesn't matter what most Palestinians "want," because they'll have to take what they can get as an independent state. Once people have actual stability and control over their future, equations change with time. Afterall, it worked before didn't it?
I disagree. HOWEVER, if this massacre were to stop literally right now, damage done doesn't disappear. You have entire generations bombed into nothing, hatred will obviously remain for a very, very long time. But again, why would we expect different?
But enough of this, lets look at your original post:
How can you, taking the above into account and that it is by your own admission a human tragedy, then say that it doesn't matter and is just based in prejudice for the majority of people? This is what I take issue with.
Yes, precisely. Most of the conflicts since Israel's creation were provoked either by the Arab League or, in October 7th's case, Hamas. A two state solution already existed in the past and the Arabs blew it because they couldn't live to see an independent Jewish state. Paragraph 3 of the Khartoum Resolution stated: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it". The 6 day war happened and they lost. A matter of fuck around and find out. Hamas pretty much re-confirmed that paragraph 3 in their 1988 charter, and then again in their 2017 version. A compete refusal to recognise Israel. Whether Israel's actions since then have been proportionate is another question, but to assert that Hamas is merely a reactionary product of recent wrongdoings by Israel is just false. Palestinians, Arabs.. most of them have been opposed to Israel existing from the very start. Of course it has a lot to do with nationalism and religious/territorial pride. They fought through 4 fricking crusades to protect the Holy Land and keep it under their domain for well more than a millenia. They were never going to give it up so easily.
I wasn't referring to Palestinians themselves but moreso hypocrites like Erdogan and his cult. Assad wipes out half a million people? No outrage, no mass protests in London. Saudi bombs the shit out of Yemen? Who cares. But where they draw the line is when Jews are involved and are the perceived "oppressors" against their Muslim brethren.
I wasn't referring to Palestinians themselves but moreso hypocrites like Erdogan and his cult. Assad wipes out half a million people? No outrage, no mass protests in London. Saudi bombs the shit out of Yemen? Who cares. But where they draw the line is when Jews are involved and are the perceived "oppressors" against their Muslim brethren.
Are you sure that was the reason? Let me ask you, if a foreign government came in and declared that your home is now under the control of some new government that doesn't represent you and seeks to displace you, if you do everything you can to fight back then is it because "you couldn't live to see it?" If China says the northeast US now belongs to Russia, yeah I'd want to fight back too.
Point out where I asserted this. I have suggested and outright said the opposite multiple times in fact:
This is far more understandable then. You increasingly have middle eastern nations normalizing relations with Israel as well, so I don't think it's as big of a party as you think outside of people directly impacted.
So this is a religion thing for you then? You're taking this to a place that I have no desire to go, so lets end it here because I have no desire to devolve this into Elvin-level posting.
Point out where I asserted this. I have suggested and outright said the opposite multiple times in fact:
This is far more understandable then. You increasingly have middle eastern nations normalizing relations with Israel as well, so I don't think it's as big of a party as you think outside of people directly impacted.
So this is a religion thing for you then? You're taking this to a place that I have no desire to go, so lets end it here because I have no desire to devolve this into Elvin-level posting.
I'm referring specifically to the Arab League nations here like Jordan and Egypt who were originally the ones in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip respectively. Palestine didn't break the 1949 Armistice Agreements, they did. If there's anyone to blame for the failure of the 2 state solution its them. Totally unecessary. Yet Israel gets the blame.
I'm confused, do you or do you not believe in a two state solution now? Because it seems now you're suggesting that the formation of Israel in of itself was wrong and unfair.
By "recent wrongdoings" I wasn't merely implying October 7th but the events in the 90s and 00s that led to the election of Hamas.
If you can't see how religion is heavily intertwined with the pan-islamic unity against Israel then I don't know what to say really. With the exception of four countries (Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela), the countries that do not recognize Israel are all Muslim. You literally had a Joint Arab Islamic Extraordinary Summit in November, exclusive to Islamic countries only, which sought a strategy against Israel. If not for religion, then where are these kind of summits for other genocides, especially considering that one of those present was the genocidal maniac Assad himself?
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Again, for someone who has me on ignore you still seem awfully obsessed with my posts.
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The ICJ doesn't seem to think it's a genocide either, so...
I'm confused, do you or do you not believe in a two state solution now? Because it seems now you're suggesting that the formation of Israel in of itself was wrong and unfair.
By "recent wrongdoings" I wasn't merely implying October 7th but the events in the 90s and 00s that led to the election of Hamas.
If you can't see how religion is heavily intertwined with the pan-islamic unity against Israel then I don't know what to say really. With the exception of four countries (Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela), the countries that do not recognize Israel are all Muslim. You literally had a Joint Arab Islamic Extraordinary Summit in November, exclusive to Islamic countries only, which sought a strategy against Israel. If not for religion, then where are these kind of summits for other genocides, especially considering that one of those present was the genocidal maniac Assad himself?
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Again, for someone who has me on ignore you still seem awfully obsessed with my posts.
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The ICJ doesn't seem to think it's a genocide either, so...
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