Israeli-Palestinian conflict (46 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,632


@Seven @Tomice this guy (in the video, not the written tweet) has pretty sound speech that cuts through the BS.


Only thing to note that would done differently is I would be much harsher on Hamas, tho he is right they are the defacto rulers of Gaza so you have to deal with them to find a solution, not just ignore.
I’m curious, what solution do you think Hamas is interested in?
I think people still are looking at Hamas as freedom fighters with cruel tactics. This ain’t it IMO. Hamas wouldn’t survive a month without Iran’s support. They’re very much an extension of Islamic Republic’s foreign policy. And Iran is not interested in a 2 state solution or any solution that leads to the recognition of Israel.
 

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Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981


@Seven @Tomice this guy (in the video, not the written tweet) has pretty sound speech that cuts through the BS.


Only thing to note that would done differently is I would be much harsher on Hamas, tho he is right they are the defacto rulers of Gaza so you have to deal with them to find a solution, not just ignore.
He is a very naive person and dishonest, or deft.

First, No sense in acting as if Hamas are a rational player with any Intent on reaching any peaceful agreement. Their sole reason of existence is resistance to Israel, without it they will have no funding, no money to embazle and no legitimacy.

Mentioning the irgun or lehi is a good bait and switch "whatabout" attempt in drawing a false equivalency. Both were considered terror organisations by the Jewish agency and the zionist Congress, both organisations are not a celebrated part of our history. In the 49' election lehi got 1.5% of votes and irgun 16%. Hamas got 74% in 06', the public support for terrorism as a legitimate method is not comparable.

When the IDF spokesperson says it's 500 militants out of the 800 it was to counter an argument of the IDF using indiscriminate fire to kill civilians. To present it out of context and paint it the way he does is dishonest and moraly bankrupt.

The final nail in trying to take him seriously is him saying we should have negotiated with Yaser Arafat, lol. First like we never did, secondly like there ever was a bigger negotiator in bad faith then him, he single handedly wrecked the Palestinian future.

He is right about this current government though and the crazy settlers.

But the main general issue I have is with this approach which I see often, usually with westren leftistist, is putting the entirety of the blame on one side and infentlizing the other. Acting as if the Palestinian side has no agency, just children fumbling in the dark while ignoring all Palestinians mistakes and wrongdoings absolving them of most and sometimes any blame. This approach to put the pressure solely on the Israeli side and non on the Palestinian is only prolonging the conflict.

As a side note, all this videos with the title "watch it before it gets taken down" are just playing into the tired antisemtic trope of Jews controlling the media, those videos are never taken down lol.

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It was, capturing a lot of my sentiments. Thanks
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,289
But the main general issue I have is with this approach which I see often, usually with westren leftistist, is putting the entirety of the blame on one side and infentlizing the other. Acting as if the Palestinian side has no agency, just children fumbling in the dark while ignoring all Palestinians mistakes and wrongdoings absolving them of most and sometimes any blame. This approach to put the pressure solely on the Israeli side and non on the Palestinian is only prolonging the conflict.

As a side note, all this videos with the title "watch it before it gets taken down" are just playing into the tired antisemtic trope of Jews controlling the media, those videos are never taken down lol.

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Israel is Goliath here.

I know they like to pretend they're David, but they're not. And if you are the stronger power and you in fact occupy territories, that comes with responsibility.

People go soft on Hamas (wrongfully I may add), because Hamas were born out of resistance. And people identify with resistance to a foreign power.

What bothers me too is that Hamas and Palestine are equated. If Israel puts forward decent offers and presents them to Hamas, it will take power away from Hamas if they decline. What doesn't take power away is terrorizing millions of citizens, who will now breed new Hamas members.

But what really gets me is that Israel knows all of this. Imo they are intentionally keeping both Hamas and the conflict alive, because, in all honesty, they believe they have more to gain from the conflict than peace. The Israeli leaders probably love Hamas at this point.

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Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
Israel is Goliath here.

I know they like to pretend they're David, but they're not. And if you are the stronger power and you in fact occupy territories, that comes with responsibility.

People go soft on Hamas (wrongfully I may add), because Hamas were born out of resistance. And people identify with resistance to a foreign power.

What bothers me too is that Hamas and Palestine are equated. If Israel puts forward decent offers and presents them to Hamas, it will take power away from Hamas if they decline. What doesn't take power away is terrorizing millions of citizens, who will now breed new Hamas members.

But what really gets me is that Israel knows all of this. Imo they are intentionally keeping both Hamas and the conflict alive, because, in all honesty, they believe they have more to gain from the conflict than peace. The Israeli leaders probably love Hamas at this point.

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It's a valid argument that I can agree with but the last part.

First you are right but I don't think it's neccesserily pretending with an intent as you my conclude, some of it maybe. israelis are captives of this mentality, in part due to being a persecuted minority for over a millenia and for still viewing the conflict in it's broader sense as an arab-israeli one. It is what it is unfortunately and we do "use" it, I just think we really do have it, for an outsider looking in it may seem crazy I understand.

I also completely understand people supporting the underdog, would have probably done the same In their shoes. There is a reason Robin Hood is such a classic tale, I think most good people are brought up to want to help the weak and unfortunate, it a buetifully human thing.

On the last part, people tend to forget, not consider or purposely ignore that Israel is like any other democratic country were politicians will do anything to stay in power, goverments come and go, public opinion and support ebb and flow and policies and decisions are not set in stone. Also Israelis are not special, the common idiot is still the common idiot who still gets to vote.

I agree this government gains more from the conflict, bibi can't lead any other type of government and will lose his remaining base even with any vague 2 state solution suggestion. But the peace process died not because of him, it died due to the bad Palestinian decisions between 95' to 08' imo, we can disagree who at fault but my point is that bibi used that to get elected and kept using that to get re-elected.

Please don't equate what this and other governments under Bibi want and what Israel as a country wants. This is the dynamic nature of democratic countries. The fact that we do badly now is not neccesserily a testament that we will always when the other side is also willing. The stage for restarting the peace process is not there this moment, or the last 10 years sadly. hopefully after this Bibi will be gone and he will, that day will come again.
 
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Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,632
Israel is Goliath here.

I know they like to pretend they're David, but they're not. And if you are the stronger power and you in fact occupy territories, that comes with responsibility.

People go soft on Hamas (wrongfully I may add), because Hamas were born out of resistance. And people identify with resistance to a foreign power.

What bothers me too is that Hamas and Palestine are equated. If Israel puts forward decent offers and presents them to Hamas, it will take power away from Hamas if they decline. What doesn't take power away is terrorizing millions of citizens, who will now breed new Hamas members.

But what really gets me is that Israel knows all of this. Imo they are intentionally keeping both Hamas and the conflict alive, because, in all honesty, they believe they have more to gain from the conflict than peace. The Israeli leaders probably love Hamas at this point.

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That's an incredibly naive statement. No offense but I think you're so much in a western democracy bubble that you have no idea how militaristic despotic regimes work.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,973
@Tomice

This post hits a lot of what I’m thinking lately.
We had the York University student unions release statements immediately following the Hamas attack stating basically that “this is what decolonization looks like” and it was “a strong act of resistance” and outright supporting Hamas and blaming Israel 100% for the 10/7 attack. Even more amusing/sad is that expressed support for such violent attacks also happening in Canada/USA by the indigenous.

It’s somewhat mind-boggling when I get told that everyone is just Pro-Palestinians, pro-two state solution, etc. Because half of the statements put out by these student groups, a very vocal (probably) minority at these protests are overtly and loudly pro-Hamas.

For those who doubt the above, here’s the link to the York University student Union statement. There are a lot of young people in academia voicing this trash.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...00/Statement+of+Solidarity+with+Palestine.pdf

“Settler-colonial states like so-called Canada” :sergio: :lol2:

These kids are fucking idiots.
 

BayernFan

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2016
6,859
@Tomice

This post hits a lot of what I’m thinking lately.
We had the York University student unions release statements immediately following the Hamas attack stating basically that “this is what decolonization looks like” and it was “a strong act of resistance” and outright supporting Hamas and blaming Israel 100% for the 10/7 attack. Even more amusing/sad is that expressed support for such violent attacks also happening in Canada/USA by the indigenous.

It’s somewhat mind-boggling when I get told that everyone is just Pro-Palestinians, pro-two state solution, etc. Because half of the statements put out by these student groups, a very vocal (probably) minority at these protests are overtly and loudly pro-Hamas.

For those who doubt the above, here’s the link to the York University student Union statement. There are a lot of young people in academia voicing this trash.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...00/Statement+of+Solidarity+with+Palestine.pdf

“Settler-colonial states like so-called Canada” :sergio: :lol2:

These kids are fucking idiots.
Far lefties has never been the brighest really.

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,289
That's an incredibly naive statement. No offense but I think you're so much in a western democracy bubble that you have no idea how militaristic despotic regimes work.
What a patronizing statement to make.

You believe Palestinians don't care more about their everyday problems than the eradication of Israel or whatever Hamas wants to happen?

Palestinians are people. People want food, security and opportunity to better themselves. If that happens without Hamas, they'll be happy.

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