Israeli-Palestinian conflict (48 Viewers)

[Ronn]

There is no public support for a renewed offer, there hasn't been one the last decade. Unfourtently.

Israelies have become disillusioned with the peace process. Rightly or not.

Also there are internal politics in play that prevent Bibi from forming a coalition with the center-left block that support the 2 state solution.

Hopefully this conflict will change the political landscape here drastically.

Do you see any chance that it changes drastically, but not entirely to the right of the spectrum?

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

First I never claimed moral high ground on the Palestinian issue. I have vastly superior moral high ground on Hamas and I know it first hand. Thinking they are freedom fighters the way they have done things is unfathomable to me.

Secondly, I don't endores it, I acknowledge it. I'm part of a country and I can disagree with some of it's policies, I do my part in trying to change those as a member of a democratic country.

But as many people were abhorrently against the withdrawal and removel of settlements in Gaza and the sinai and still served so will I.

Third, Israel only legitimacy is it's ability to exist, by force and by diplomacy. In no way it is given by the UN, international community or any other ethral body. The UN also didn't proclaim Israel out of thin air, it was earned.

To your last point, there is no good answer here. If those are your people?
I also don't necessarily ascribe to this doomsday scenario you need to accept as a basis. We can ask this question in a different way were the burden of prof is not on Israel, this is were the bias is showing.

I appreciate your levelheaded answer, i really do. As i said many times, i am not sure id be as moderate as you are if i were in your shoes. But morality is based on firm immovable principles. Either we operate on morality or on practicality. You asked seven to be consistent and not use double standards. What hamas did is immoral on every sense. But you will forgive me if i say that you serving in an army that will engage in ethnic cleansing is also immoral in every sense, your sense of duty, though commendable, doesn't change that.

I 100% agree with your point on the existence of israel. It's completely a matter of practicality which is only achieved on the field of battle and diplomacy. And it was earned not by moral means but very practical ones.

So as you see, we are operating on practicality. And if there's a conflict where one side is threatening to use nuclear weapons, potentially triggering a world war that could spell the end of civilization. I ask you once again, israeli or not, is the fate of 10 million people worth sacrificing the world? If it comes down to it, either no israel or the end of the world? Do you or anyone pick the end of the world?

 

[Tomice]

The attacks of a terrorist organization born to free a country from the occupation of a foreign invader are unrelated to that occupation?

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For you as an outsider this is just another round of hostilities between us an hamas. They shoot some missles, we shot back.

For us this time is different, the pardigam has chenged. This was not about resistance to occupation, it was the face of evil coming to eradicate us.
Cutting a pregnant women belly and stabbing the baby or behading 3 years olds has nothing to do with the occupation. Handcuffed kids watching their parents limbs getting cut off before being burned has nothing to do with freedom.

The simple Palestinian is just again cought in the crossfire, this is the only connection to the occupation to me.

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Do you see any chance that it changes drastically, but not entirely to the right of the spectrum?

I'll clarify. By changing the landscape I meant not having Bibi as PM. He has a solid base of voters who are now becoming disillusioned.
People are catching up to his faults, cowardice and lack of vision.

The moment he loses his base there will be no post-zionist, religious, far-right government, the only type he can form. Every other party right, center or left absolutely refuse to join him.

Bibi stagnated the entire country so he can hold to his crown. He is the worst thing that have happened to us and the Palestinians. He has no courage to make any sacrifice that does not serve him personally on our expanse.

 

[BayernFan]

 

[IliveForJuve]

Ben Shapiro has truly gone full on retarded:

 

[BayernFan]

This is victim mentality, combine that with deflecting questions left and right and denying what happened on a whole new level.

Those people can't be reasoned with in any sort of form. Some people eed to understand that.

 

[Seven]

For you as an outsider this is just another round of hostilities between us an hamas. They shoot some missles, we shot back.

For us this time is different, the pardigam has chenged. This was not about resistance to occupation, it was the face of evil coming to eradicate us.
Cutting a pregnant women belly and stabbing the baby or behading 3 years olds has nothing to do with the occupation. Handcuffed kids watching their parents limbs getting cut off before being burned has nothing to do with freedom.

The simple Palestinian is just again cought in the crossfire, this is the only connection to the occupation to me.

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I'll clarify. By changing the landscape I meant not having Bibi as PM. He has a solid base of voters who are now becoming disillusioned.
People are catching up to his faults, cowardice and lack of vision.

The moment he loses his base there will be no post-zionist, religious, far-right government, the only type he can form. Every other party right, center or left absolutely refuse to join him.

Bibi stagnated the entire country so he can hold to his crown. He is the worst thing that have happened to us and the Palestinians. He has no courage to make any sacrifice that does not serve him personally on our expanse.

I understand your sentiment completely.

But it's difficult to draw a line, if we start talking about morality. I also wonder if Hamas could exist without broad dissatisfaction among Palestinians. And at the same time I wonder if all of Palestine endorses the attacks carried out by Hamas.

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[Tomice]

I appreciate your levelheaded answer, i really do. As i said many times, i am not sure id be as moderate as you are if i were in your shoes. But morality is based on firm immovable principles. Either we operate on morality or on practicality. You asked seven to be consistent and not use double standards. What hamas did is immoral on every sense. But you will forgive me if i say that you serving in an army that will engage in ethnic cleansing is also immoral in every sense, your sense of duty, though commendable, doesn't change that.

I 100% agree with your point on the existence of israel. It's completely a matter of practicality which is only achieved on the field of battle and diplomacy. And it was earned not by moral means but very practical ones.

So as you see, we are operating on practicality. And if there's a conflict where one side is threatening to use nuclear weapons, potentially triggering a world war that could spell the end of civilization. I ask you once again, israeli or not, is the fate of 10 million people worth sacrificing the world? If it comes down to it, either no israel or the end of the world? Do you or anyone pick the end of the world?

First there is nothing to forgive. Your point are valid and those are things I consistently weigh, unconsciously as well. I think in the balance of practicality and morality we are at an acceptable level if far from ideal.

The army does not make the policy, without it we have no right to exist.
If I expect other people to serve and do thing they are not 100% agree with so should I.

Life is complex, people are capable of doing good and evil things at the same time, I do have faith in my people and our values. Others may not and I won't try and convince them otherwise, nor do I fault them.

Also in my role I don't have too many moral questions to answer so that might influence my willingness as well. I rarely dealt with purely civilian population.
I know how the army itself approaches civilian casualties, our rules of engagement and what we do right and wrong moraly, I can or chose to accept that.

Every country has growing pains, not a single one started as a beacon of pure goodness, we will find our way I hope.

To your last question, I simply don't think I'm in a position to answer that. As I said if I could go back in time I would have chosen Uganda. No one can.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

First there is nothing to forgive. Your point are valid and those are things I consistently weigh, unconsciously as well. I think in the balance of practicality and morality we are at an acceptable level if far from ideal.

The army does not make the policy, without it we have no right to exist.
If I expect other people to serve and do thing they are not 100% agree with so should I.

Life is complex, people are capable of doing good and evil things at the same time, I do have faith in my people and our values. Others may not and I won't try and convince them otherwise, nor do I fault them.

Also in my role I don't have too many moral questions to answer so that might influence my willingness as well. I rarely dealt with purely civilian population.
I know how the army itself approaches civilian casualties, our rules of engagement and what we do right and wrong moraly, I can or chose to accept that.

Every country has growing pains, not a single one started as a beacon of pure goodness, we will find our way I hope.

To your last question, I simply don't think I'm in a position to answer that. As I said if I could go back in time I would have chosen Uganda. No one can.

You are a good man, my friend. And I have mad respect for you. May He protect you and yours, and may He shine a light of hope and reconciliation in that land.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

There is no public support for a renewed offer, there hasn't been one the last decade. Unfourtently.

Israelies have become disillusioned with the peace process. Rightly or not.

Also there are internal politics in play that prevent Bibi from forming a coalition with the center-left block that support the 2 state solution.

Hopefully this conflict will change the political landscape here drastically.

I'll hope for it, but I will also strongly doubt it with happen solely from within.

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Ben Shapiro has truly gone full on retarded:

"Always has been"

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Revelations, boys

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Revelations, boys

Pandering to boomer evangelicals, as you can see it's all folks who are gonna be dead or demented in the next 10 years

 

[Bianconero81]

"The Chosen People"

So arrogant, entitled and deluded as fuck.

 

[duranfj]

So Hamas terrorism is because of Israel.

What about Hezbolah? Also about Israel
What about Al Qaeda? That’s on US
What about ISIS? That’s also on US

Palestine and Israel conflict is quite complex and tragic but when a country is fighting Terrorism there are not middle ground. Israel have to protect every innocent not matter where they are from but ignoring they are fighting a terrorist group that will happily kill their own people just to accomplish their main goal, it’s simply stupidity.

ISIS was formed for a few Al Qaeda members because the military operation stop just before take them all down. We all know what happened after that. I have not doubt this time it would be way worse than that

 

[Tomice]

Pandering to boomer evangelicals, as you can see it's all folks who are gonna be dead or demented in the next 10 years

Those guys are also a massive driving force behind the settler and the "whole israel" movement. They have, together with conservative-liberterian American Jewish group called Kohelet subverted and influenced a lot of Israeli politics and policies last decade, among them the recent judicial reform shitstorm and the unfortunate "israel as a Jewish nation state" law.

They are both evil forces in my book. Fuck'em

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You are a good man, my friend. And I have mad respect for you. May He protect you and yours, and may He shine a light of hope and reconciliation in that land.

I appreciate the frank intellectually honest
debate, it's rare. I can put into words a sometimes confused or contradicting convictions against a fair, challenging counter weight.
It can be hard find here and in Israel right now with people emotions running high.

 

[Bianconero81]

So Hamas terrorism is because of Israel.

What about Hezbolah? Also about Israel
What about Al Qaeda? That’s on US
What about ISIS? That’s also on US

Palestine and Israel conflict is quite complex and tragic but when a country is fighting Terrorism there are not middle ground. Israel have to protect every innocent not matter where they are from but ignoring they are fighting a terrorist group that will happily kill their own people just to accomplish their main goal, it’s simply stupidity.

ISIS was formed for a few Al Qaeda members because the military operation stop just before take them all down. We all know what happened after that. I have not doubt this time it would be way worse than that

Fuck all these organizations, but let's not pretend Israel are merely protecting their own people FFS - that's as naive and gullible as it gets.

 

[Fab Fragment]

Those guys are also a massive driving force behind the settler and the "whole israel" movement. They have, together with conservative-liberterian American Jewish group called Kohelet subverted and influenced a lot of Israeli politics and policies last decade, among them the recent judicial reform shitstorm and the unfortunate "israel as a Jewish nation state" law.

They are both evil forces in my book. Fuck'em

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I appreciate the frank intellectually honest
debate, it's rare. I can put into words a sometimes confused or contradicting convictions against a fair, challenging counter weight.
It can be hard find here in Israel right now with people emotions running high.

Very interesting and I appreciate your honesty. I’m a little surprised to learn that American evangelicals hold so much sway in Israeli politics.

 

[campionesidd]

Ben Shapiro has truly gone full on retarded:

He always was.

 

[ALC]

Revelations, boys

Israel keep staying on track with Hitler

 

[Enron]

Very interesting and I appreciate your honesty. I’m a little surprised to learn that American evangelicals hold so much sway in Israeli politics.

They’re just trying to bring on Revelation.