Israeli-Palestinian conflict (50 Viewers)

[Tomice]

Sure, we can do that. I really want it, personally. Where's the offer currently at so we can make it happen?

There is no public support for a renewed offer, there hasn't been one the last decade. Unfourtently.

Israelies have become disillusioned with the peace process. Rightly or not.

Also there are internal politics in play that prevent Bibi from forming a coalition with the center-left block that support the 2 state solution.

Hopefully this conflict will change the political landscape here drastically.

 

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[IliveForJuve]

Is Belgium less real than Israel?

 

[BayernFan]

It is that simple.

But it does require both parts to compromise. And that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

 

[Tomice]

It is that simple.

Then they should have accepted the offeres they were offered no?

Those that you so easily ignore in all your arguments like they didn't happen

 

[Seven]

Is Belgium less real than Israel?

Belgium is very similar to Israel in the sense that it was created by other countries to resolve international conflicts, even if it did have historical roots. Neither Belgium nor Israel are perfect solutions, though Belgium (or at least its inhabitants) has thrived economically.

 

[Tomice]

Israel decided it was a meaningful charter by being a member. It is Israel itself that said it would follow those principles.

And again, you are not arguing on the merits of the case. Does that not say everything we need to know?

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Then, maybe, you should think about:

- not ethnic cleansing;
- adhering to international law.

We can talk about Hamas later.

But Hamas is the issue at the moment, hence your deflecting lol

 

[BayernFan]

Is Belgium less real than Israel?

ItsNotReal.

 

[Seven]

Then they should have accepted the offeres they were offered no?

Those that you are so easily ignore in all your arguments like they didn't happen

This is a different debate.

But yes, I do think there should be some compromise on their part. However I know you need no reminding that Israel has extended its territory quite significantly.

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But Hamas is the issue at the moment, hence your deflecting lol

No, it is not.

Israel have been an occupier for decades. Decades. Long before Hamas even existed.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Sure lol,

You are the one deflecting. The only case you are building is a case for a terrorist organisation and an Iranian proxy with the explicit aim of a complete genocide.

I never will dispute claims of ethnic cleansing, never have. Never said Israel didn't violate "international law". I just find laughable your double standards, whataboutisim and naive outlook on how the world works.

If you acknowledge and endorse ethnic cleansing, then what moral ground do you have to call anyone a terrorist?

Secondly if UN is a joke with no legitimacy, doesn't that make israel, a direct product of the UN and its most impactful legacy, illegitimate?

I appreciate your candor and willingness to see this in practical terms. So lemme ask you this, in practical terms, please key word here is practical since we doing away with all morality, is the fate of 10 million people worth destroying the world over?

 

[IliveForJuve]

I understand Tomice's and Israel's stance.

If it was possible for me to exterminate a certain demographic in Bolivia, I'd do it. Friggin animals.

 

[BayernFan]

Another problem is the "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". As long as you have that mindset there's not gonna be any sort of peace, how can you make compromises that way? I fully understand wanting your own country, but if you believe everything is yours then there's a problem. To be fair though, I don't know if that chant is how the borders were before the Israeli-Arab wars.

And Israel gotta understand they can't just have all their settlements and annex territory at their will.

 

[Tomice]

This is a different debate.

But yes, I do think there should be some compromise on their part. However I know you need no reminding that Israel has extended its territory quite significantly.

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No, it is not.

Israel have been an occupier for decades. Decades. Long before Hamas even existed.

And I will never defend the settlement enterprise either.

But as that UN guy said, it also didn't happen in a vaccum.

And I'll guess we will have to disagree on what is the issue at the moment. I simply can't see you having a case there

 

[Seven]

And I will never defend the settlement enterprise either.

But as that UN guy said, it also didn't happen in a vaccum.

And I'll guess we will have to disagree on what is the issue at the moment. I simply can't see you having a case there

The attacks of a terrorist organization born to free a country from the occupation of a foreign invader are unrelated to that occupation?

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[GordoDeCentral]

Another problem is the "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". As long as you have that mindset there's not gonna be any sort of peace, how can you make compromises that way? I fully understand wanting your own country, but if you believe everything is yours then there's a problem.

And Israel gotta understand they can't just have all their settlements and annex territory at their will.

It doesn't matter what anyone wants, palestinians will be forced to take a deal because:

-Israel is a fait accompli

-those who support the pali issue are only interested in saving face. And i believe that a fair deal will allow them to achieve that and the whole world will be behind it


But for any of this to materialize israel has to feel the need to make peace.

 

[BayernFan]

The attacks of a terrorist organization born to free a country from the occupation of a foreign invader are unrelated to that occupation?

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Hamas end goal is not only to free themselves from any occupation though, but eradicate Israel and the Jews.

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It doesn't matter what anyone wants, palestinians will be forced to take a deal because:

-Israel is a fait accompli

-those who support the pali issue are only interested in saving face. And i believe that a fair deal will allow them to achieve that and the whole world will be behind it


But for any of this to materialize israel has to feel the need to make peace.

I wish it was that simple bro. The US should honestly pressure Israel and the Arab the same to the Palestinians.

 

[Post Ironic]

You are doing what a lot of people are doing. Confusing the behaviour of Palestinian leaders or Palestinian political factions with the violations of international law by a state.

I despise Hamas. I always have. I think they are a detriment to their own people and an obstacle that needs to be overcome to work towards peace. But you don't have to be a political mastermind to see that Israel uses Hamas to illegally occupy territories and perhaps annex even more territories. And also, a terrorist organization born under your very occupation, is not exactly a strong argument to wage war.

Israel need to be held accountable. Then and only then can there be peace.

While I agree in part, you are ignoring the PLO which has been operating since 1964 as a militant terrorist organization. Before the settlements.

 

[Tomice]

If you acknowledge and endorse ethnic cleansing, then what moral ground do you have to call anyone a terrorist?

Secondly if UN is a joke with no legitimacy, doesn't that make israel, a direct product of the UN and its most impactful legacy, illegitimate?

I appreciate your candor and willingness to see this in practical terms. So lemme ask you this, in practical terms, please key word here is practical since we doing away with all morality, is the fate of 10 million people worth destroying the world over?

First I never claimed moral high ground on the Palestinian issue. I have vastly superior moral high ground on Hamas and I know it first hand. Thinking they are freedom fighters the way they have done things is unfathomable to me.

Secondly, I don't endores it, I acknowledge it. I'm part of a country and I can disagree with some of it's policies, I do my part in trying to change those as a member of a democratic country.

But as many people were abhorrently against the withdrawal and removel of settlements in Gaza and the sinai and still served so will I.

Third, Israel only legitimacy is it's ability to exist, by force and by diplomacy. In no way it is given by the UN, international community or any other ethral body. The UN also didn't proclaim Israel out of thin air, it was earned.

To your last point, there is no good answer here. If those are your people?
I also don't necessarily ascribe to this doomsday scenario you need to accept as a basis. We can ask this question in a different way were the burden of prof is not on Israel, this is were the bias is showing.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Hamas end goal is not only to free themselves from any occupation though, but eradicate Israel and the Jews.

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I wish it was that simple bro. The US should honestly pressure Israel and the Arab the same to the Palestinians.

The arabs will 100% imo no arab leader likes to do this or want to do this. But they have to do the minimum to keep the people at bay.

The US unfortunately has no agency in this matter. All US politicians are beholden to the israeli lobby, i mean just look at the senate vote, travesty.

I really believe that if israel offers west bank, gaza, and some sort of a fair arrangement on both jerusalem and golan heights, there will be no other choice but peace. No one will ever care for Palestinians if they dont go through with this.

 

[Seven]

First I never claimed moral high ground on the Palestinian issue. I have vastly superior moral high ground on Hamas and I know it first hand. Thinking they are freedom fighters the way they have done things is unfathomable to me.

Secondly, I don't endores it, I acknowledge it. I'm part of a country and I can disagree with some of it's policies, I do my part in trying to change those as a member of a democratic country.

But as many people were abhorrently against the withdrawal and removel of settlements in Gaza and the sinai and still served so will I.

Third, Israel only legitimacy is it's ability to exist, by force and by diplomacy. In no way it is given by the UN, international community or any other ethral body. The UN also didn't proclaim Israel out of thin air, it was earned.

To your last point, there is no good answer here. If those are your people?
I also don't necessarily ascribe to this doomsday scenario you need to accept as a basis. We can ask this question in a different way were the burden of prof is not on Israel, this is were the bias is showing.

Existing is not the same as annexing.

Unless you're looking for Lebensraum.

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[IliveForJuve]

Yeah, if I'm Israel no way I'm giving up all the land I conquered because my neighbours were retarded and declared war on me.

Palestine and the other Arabs lost. They should compromise if they want peace. Started a war and lost the war.