Israeli-Palestinian conflict (69 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
- Start date
Every instance of conflict that flares up every few years, you kill hundreds to thousands of civilians, what percentage of that is Hamas invented war crimes, and whats actual Israeli war crimes on civilian population?
Or as the ones in power of this world puts it "collateral damage", unfortunate human shields in targeted killing".
That bold part is the crux of the double standard. The world condemns the Hamas attack on civilians the collective punishment of Israelis in the name of pragmatic resistance.
The standard and expectation here is that Palestinians should practice restraint despite being occupied and sieged for years. We demand they don’t succumb to toxic ideologies that see Israeli civilians as cannon fodder for the greater good or for some pragmatic objective to stop the Saudi deal.
Hold yourself to that same standard. Resist the urge to exact vengeance on innocents in the name of security. You can achieve security in a variety of ways. Don’t fall to the same base instincts that the US fell for after 9/11. Learn from their mistakes. Don’t betray your values.
No one can hold the US accountable, they can look back and say that was a huge mistake, but that doesn’t undo the damage to the people nor to the moral drift you’re experiencing. American standing in the world was permanently undermined after they betrayed their values so publicly.
I don’t know how you can’t see it. Watch Training Day. It’s the same moral principle in the police context.
The standard and expectation here is that Palestinians should practice restraint despite being occupied and sieged for years. We demand they don’t succumb to toxic ideologies that see Israeli civilians as cannon fodder for the greater good or for some pragmatic objective to stop the Saudi deal.
Hold yourself to that same standard. Resist the urge to exact vengeance on innocents in the name of security. You can achieve security in a variety of ways. Don’t fall to the same base instincts that the US fell for after 9/11. Learn from their mistakes. Don’t betray your values.
No one can hold the US accountable, they can look back and say that was a huge mistake, but that doesn’t undo the damage to the people nor to the moral drift you’re experiencing. American standing in the world was permanently undermined after they betrayed their values so publicly.
I don’t know how you can’t see it. Watch Training Day. It’s the same moral principle in the police context.
I don't claim israel hasn't committed any war crimes. Surly I don't know the ratio. Or all the incidents.
To me even the idea that an Israeli ( in that position especially) will deliberately strike an hospital to cause civilian deaths is inconceivable. For many, many reasons, internal, logical and from intimate knowledge of my fellow people and my army.
It's not my place to "sell" this to anyone so I don't even bother. People choose their own narratives.
To me even the idea that an Israeli ( in that position especially) will deliberately strike an hospital to cause civilian deaths is inconceivable. For many, many reasons, internal, logical and from intimate knowledge of my fellow people and my army.
It's not my place to "sell" this to anyone so I don't even bother. People choose their own narratives.
I completely understand and appreciate your point.
When I hear an Israeli talk of revenge or flattening gaza I squirm out of instinct. Honestly. But I understand people are driven by basic emotion and we are all grieving.
The problem is, and I said it in my first post here after the event is this is the point of no return for us both. I only felt sadness. We can talk all we want about restraint and reaching for moral high ground.
Israelis will consider the palestinians savages for a long long time after this. Maybe for ever unredeemable.
It might be our fault we got here, but we are already here.
I don't think I have the word to describe the extent of the impact this attack had on us. I'm generally a very restrained, peaceful guy. If this has this effect on me than it's way worse for vast majority of Israelis, this is what saddens me.
But when you are talking of restraint and holding israel and hamas to same standards my blood boils.
You can fight for you country and freedom, armed resistance is a legitimate endeavour but not like this. This is a deamon you can't put back in a bottle, you just can't. There is a line you can not cross.
If they would have killed a million of us humanly (for lack of better word) we might have had a chance, but not like this
When I hear an Israeli talk of revenge or flattening gaza I squirm out of instinct. Honestly. But I understand people are driven by basic emotion and we are all grieving.
The problem is, and I said it in my first post here after the event is this is the point of no return for us both. I only felt sadness. We can talk all we want about restraint and reaching for moral high ground.
Israelis will consider the palestinians savages for a long long time after this. Maybe for ever unredeemable.
It might be our fault we got here, but we are already here.
I don't think I have the word to describe the extent of the impact this attack had on us. I'm generally a very restrained, peaceful guy. If this has this effect on me than it's way worse for vast majority of Israelis, this is what saddens me.
But when you are talking of restraint and holding israel and hamas to same standards my blood boils.
You can fight for you country and freedom, armed resistance is a legitimate endeavour but not like this. This is a deamon you can't put back in a bottle, you just can't. There is a line you can not cross.
If they would have killed a million of us humanly (for lack of better word) we might have had a chance, but not like this
Not genocide. Operate within the rules of war even when it’s hard to do so.
Like I said earlier: Regain control of your border and internal security, don’t fall asleep at the wheel again, negotiate hostage exchanges and play the long game of intelligence work, assassinations, drones….the kind of thing that the Mossad was supposedly famous for and have movies like Munich about. The way most civilized countries react to terror attacks.
Its not like hostage situations is an entirely new phenomenon. Police don’t just bomb the bank with everyone in it. You don’t go after the robbers innocent families to pressure the robbers to submit. That’s what separates a civilized police force from the mafia.
9/11 is not a template for appropriate response and Israel is not the United States. It’s strong but it’s not the global hegemon. There could be consequences.
Like I said earlier: Regain control of your border and internal security, don’t fall asleep at the wheel again, negotiate hostage exchanges and play the long game of intelligence work, assassinations, drones….the kind of thing that the Mossad was supposedly famous for and have movies like Munich about. The way most civilized countries react to terror attacks.
Its not like hostage situations is an entirely new phenomenon. Police don’t just bomb the bank with everyone in it. You don’t go after the robbers innocent families to pressure the robbers to submit. That’s what separates a civilized police force from the mafia.
9/11 is not a template for appropriate response and Israel is not the United States. It’s strong but it’s not the global hegemon. There could be consequences.
Last edited:
WORLD
Israeli T-Shirts Joke About Killing Arabs
MARCH 23, 2009 / 1:37 PM / CBS/AP
Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in cross-hairs and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war.
"The smaller they are, the harder it is," says another shirt showing a child in a rifle sight. Soldiers wore the shirts to mark the end of basic training and other military courses and they were first reported by the Haaretz daily.
The military condemned the soldiers involved, but it was not immediately clear how many wore the shirts. They were not manufactured or sanctioned by the military and appear not to have been widely distributed.
The shirts "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless," the military said in a statement. "This type of humor is unbecoming and should be condemned." The army said it would not tolerate such behavior and would take disciplinary action against the soldiers involved.
Haaretz showed pictures of five shirts and said they were made at the unit level - indicating that they were made for small numbers of troops, perhaps several dozen, at a time. It said they were worn by an unknown number of enlisted men in different units. The Tel Aviv factory that made many of the shirts, Adiv, refused to comment.
Some of the shirts had blatant sexual messages. One battalion had a shirt made of a soldier standing next to a young woman with bruises, with the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" according to Haaretz.
Others featured the phrase "Confirming the kill," a reference to the shooting an enemy in the head from close range to ensure he is dead, a practice that the IDF denies.
Israel's military has come under increasing scrutiny after unidentified soldiers alleged that some troops opened fire hastily and killed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war several months ago, including children, possibly because they believed they would not be held accountable under relaxed open-fire regulations. The military has ordered a criminal inquiry into soldiers accounts published in a military institute's newsletter.
On Monday, the military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, defended his troops.
"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army. I have no doubt that exceptional events will be dealt with," Ashkenazi told new recruits. Gaza "is a complex atmosphere that includes civilians, and we took every measure possible to reduce harm to the innocent."
Palestinians too have glorified attacks on Israelis in the past. In the Gaza Strip, Hamas-controlled media consistently send messages that Jews cannot be trusted and that Israel is a bloodthirsty, militaristic state eager to seize Palestinian land and slaughter Palestinian children.
The three-week Gaza offensive, launched to end years of rocket fire at Israeli towns, ended on Jan. 18. According to Palestinian officials, around 1,400 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians. Thirteen Israelis died, three of them civilians.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/
I just posted, but as you will see I think you completely misjudge the situation. It too late for all that
- - - Updated - - -
WORLD
Israeli T-Shirts Joke About Killing Arabs
MARCH 23, 2009 / 1:37 PM / CBS/AP
Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in cross-hairs and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war.
"The smaller they are, the harder it is," says another shirt showing a child in a rifle sight. Soldiers wore the shirts to mark the end of basic training and other military courses and they were first reported by the Haaretz daily.
The military condemned the soldiers involved, but it was not immediately clear how many wore the shirts. They were not manufactured or sanctioned by the military and appear not to have been widely distributed.
The shirts "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless," the military said in a statement. "This type of humor is unbecoming and should be condemned." The army said it would not tolerate such behavior and would take disciplinary action against the soldiers involved.
Haaretz showed pictures of five shirts and said they were made at the unit level - indicating that they were made for small numbers of troops, perhaps several dozen, at a time. It said they were worn by an unknown number of enlisted men in different units. The Tel Aviv factory that made many of the shirts, Adiv, refused to comment.
Some of the shirts had blatant sexual messages. One battalion had a shirt made of a soldier standing next to a young woman with bruises, with the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" according to Haaretz.
Others featured the phrase "Confirming the kill," a reference to the shooting an enemy in the head from close range to ensure he is dead, a practice that the IDF denies.
Israel's military has come under increasing scrutiny after unidentified soldiers alleged that some troops opened fire hastily and killed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war several months ago, including children, possibly because they believed they would not be held accountable under relaxed open-fire regulations. The military has ordered a criminal inquiry into soldiers accounts published in a military institute's newsletter.
On Monday, the military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, defended his troops.
"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army. I have no doubt that exceptional events will be dealt with," Ashkenazi told new recruits. Gaza "is a complex atmosphere that includes civilians, and we took every measure possible to reduce harm to the innocent."
Palestinians too have glorified attacks on Israelis in the past. In the Gaza Strip, Hamas-controlled media consistently send messages that Jews cannot be trusted and that Israel is a bloodthirsty, militaristic state eager to seize Palestinian land and slaughter Palestinian children.
The three-week Gaza offensive, launched to end years of rocket fire at Israeli towns, ended on Jan. 18. According to Palestinian officials, around 1,400 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians. Thirteen Israelis died, three of them civilians.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/
Not gonna read all that but I will guess you never served
- - - Updated - - -
WORLD
Israeli T-Shirts Joke About Killing Arabs
MARCH 23, 2009 / 1:37 PM / CBS/AP
Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in cross-hairs and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war.
"The smaller they are, the harder it is," says another shirt showing a child in a rifle sight. Soldiers wore the shirts to mark the end of basic training and other military courses and they were first reported by the Haaretz daily.
The military condemned the soldiers involved, but it was not immediately clear how many wore the shirts. They were not manufactured or sanctioned by the military and appear not to have been widely distributed.
The shirts "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless," the military said in a statement. "This type of humor is unbecoming and should be condemned." The army said it would not tolerate such behavior and would take disciplinary action against the soldiers involved.
Haaretz showed pictures of five shirts and said they were made at the unit level - indicating that they were made for small numbers of troops, perhaps several dozen, at a time. It said they were worn by an unknown number of enlisted men in different units. The Tel Aviv factory that made many of the shirts, Adiv, refused to comment.
Some of the shirts had blatant sexual messages. One battalion had a shirt made of a soldier standing next to a young woman with bruises, with the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" according to Haaretz.
Others featured the phrase "Confirming the kill," a reference to the shooting an enemy in the head from close range to ensure he is dead, a practice that the IDF denies.
Israel's military has come under increasing scrutiny after unidentified soldiers alleged that some troops opened fire hastily and killed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war several months ago, including children, possibly because they believed they would not be held accountable under relaxed open-fire regulations. The military has ordered a criminal inquiry into soldiers accounts published in a military institute's newsletter.
On Monday, the military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, defended his troops.
"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army. I have no doubt that exceptional events will be dealt with," Ashkenazi told new recruits. Gaza "is a complex atmosphere that includes civilians, and we took every measure possible to reduce harm to the innocent."
Palestinians too have glorified attacks on Israelis in the past. In the Gaza Strip, Hamas-controlled media consistently send messages that Jews cannot be trusted and that Israel is a bloodthirsty, militaristic state eager to seize Palestinian land and slaughter Palestinian children.
The three-week Gaza offensive, launched to end years of rocket fire at Israeli towns, ended on Jan. 18. According to Palestinian officials, around 1,400 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians. Thirteen Israelis died, three of them civilians.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/
I mean, they also mean nothing to any of the neighbouring countries that want to wipe them out. That area of the world is a complete mess, and there are no good guys involved, regardless of the spin from both sides.
- - - Updated - - -
They had the chance to accept such offers in the ‘90s and ‘00s. And refused because the terrorists in charge didn’t ever actually want peace. What’s happened since is as much on them as it is on Israel.
- - - Updated - - -
They had the chance to accept such offers in the ‘90s and ‘00s. And refused because the terrorists in charge didn’t ever actually want peace. What’s happened since is as much on them as it is on Israel.
don’t cross the same line I promise you you’ll only lose yourself and your soul both as an individual and as a nation as a whole. It will feel good in the short term as a release but will eat your soul forever.
You made a great point that it recalls a lot of holocaust trauma, and is part of why they’re seen as an existential threat. Don’t let the trauma cloud your judgment. That’s succumbing to the trauma and not overcoming it.
If you allow yourself to sink as low as the terrorists then they have won and to some extent the Nazis have won.
The more serious existential threat to Israel is if the world turns against you and you become a pariah state. If Israel succumbs to its basest instincts, with your fire power the damage is just orders of magnitude more severe. And slowly but surely countries that currently back you will start turning.
I want to be clear as to not appear flippant: restraint is extremely difficult but it’s the right thing to do, morally and pragmatically as a long term strategy. I don’t expect this from the average person but Leaders need to stand up. That’s a moment that requires real difficult leadership.
You made a great point that it recalls a lot of holocaust trauma, and is part of why they’re seen as an existential threat. Don’t let the trauma cloud your judgment. That’s succumbing to the trauma and not overcoming it.
If you allow yourself to sink as low as the terrorists then they have won and to some extent the Nazis have won.
The more serious existential threat to Israel is if the world turns against you and you become a pariah state. If Israel succumbs to its basest instincts, with your fire power the damage is just orders of magnitude more severe. And slowly but surely countries that currently back you will start turning.
I want to be clear as to not appear flippant: restraint is extremely difficult but it’s the right thing to do, morally and pragmatically as a long term strategy. I don’t expect this from the average person but Leaders need to stand up. That’s a moment that requires real difficult leadership.
I agree wholeheartedly. To the letter.
I'm not afraid for myself, I'm not out for revenge. Anger gets you killed, in the real and mentally as you said.
But I really can't speak for all the soldiers that will be on the ground, I can only hope but I do believe.
Let's be honest here, if we wanted Gaza would be a crater by now. IDF army commend I trust completly on the morality front but in the end of it there is a foot soldier you can't guess how will react in some situations and what emotional baggage he carries
I'm not afraid for myself, I'm not out for revenge. Anger gets you killed, in the real and mentally as you said.
But I really can't speak for all the soldiers that will be on the ground, I can only hope but I do believe.
Let's be honest here, if we wanted Gaza would be a crater by now. IDF army commend I trust completly on the morality front but in the end of it there is a foot soldier you can't guess how will react in some situations and what emotional baggage he carries
