Israeli-Palestinian conflict (37 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,179
Yep

The only true thing you said.

And basically all your questions are just asking me to rephrase what you couldn't get about the answer I just gave. again not very fruitful is it?
I've read your posts with great interest. Parts of them I agreed with. Others I vehemently disagreed with.

But after having read them all, there is something I want to ask you. Do you believe the life of a Palestinian civilian id worth as much as the life of an Israeli citizen? Do you think they have the same rights and obligations?

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Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
I've read your posts with great interest. Parts of them I agreed with. Others I vehemently disagreed with.

But after having read them all, there is something I want to ask you. Do you believe the life of a Palestinian civilian id worth as much as the life of an Israeli citizen? Do you think they have the same rights and obligations?

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I appreciate that, reading them and at least making the effort whether we agree or not.

For the first part, is the life of a palestinian worth as much as the life of an Israeli? in absolute terms, definite yes.

Too often my own country is forcing itself into a corner of making those choices on life worth when it's not absolutely necessary, those are the issues I criticise Israel about.

How would you choose between the life of a family member and a random person for the sake of argument? you know they are worth the same but are they really equal to you personally? even if it's a clear choice there is a price to pay, and we do pay it as a society (not comparing sufferings before anyone is triggered).I know it may sound very unpleasant to some ears, and you are free judge always but I think any palestinian (or anyone else) if he is honest will say the same. And I would think it's only fair, nature of men and conflict. Again I think having to make the choice at all is a horrible mistake in itself.

To your second part i'm not sure I'm following, rights from who and obligation to who? If you are referring to palestinians having the same universal rights as everyone else, they absolutely should. Is israel hampering those rights? yes, absolutely it does, but so does their own government and society, in general not many arabs enjoy many of those rights anyway so it is what it is. I mean just look at the rights of palestinians in other muslim countries, even 3rd or 4th generation. No one likes to talk about it because it's inconvenient to the argument but the examples are endless.

If you meant rights in another context then please elaborate, I'm not clear on the obligations part as well
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
Literally nothing in Israel's foundation was outside International Law, no matter how much pallywood apologists harp on about 'religious' motives of Zionists

sad!

btw, regarding Orgut's post: Total war is not genocide, my grandfather used to say :shifty:
Like I said earlier , I'm trying my hardest not to respond in this thread, but every now and then, something itches my curiosity so hard I can't resist.

So, invading a certain land, forcing its inhabitants out of it, and establishing a country on that said land does not violate any sort of international law?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,179
How would you choose between the life of a family member and a random person for the sake of argument? you know they are worth the same but are they really equal to you personally? even if it's a clear choice there is a price to pay, and we do pay it as a society (not comparing sufferings before anyone is triggered).I know it may sound very unpleasant to some ears, and you are free judge always but I think any palestinian (or anyone else) if he is honest will say the same. And I would think it's only fair, nature of men and conflict. Again I think having to make the choice at all is a horrible mistake in itself.
I understand that sentiment. It's only natural to look after your own.

To your second part i'm not sure I'm following, rights from who and obligation to who? If you are referring to palestinians having the same universal rights as everyone else, they absolutely should. Is israel hampering those rights? yes, absolutely it does, but so does their own government and society, in general not many arabs enjoy many of those rights anyway so it is what it is. I mean just look at the rights of palestinians in other muslim countries, even 3rd or 4th generation. No one likes to talk about it because it's inconvenient to the argument but the examples are endless.

If you meant rights in another context then please elaborate, I'm not clear on the obligations part as well
No, I meant universal rights. Such as the right to property. Because it is clear that Israel is violating those rights.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
I understand that sentiment. It's only natural to look after your own.



No, I meant universal rights. Such as the right to property. Because it is clear that Israel is violating those rights.
Yeah, don't think anyone can or is trying to deny that, it wouldn't stop until we make a deal unfortunately, especially with the current right wing government. I think both sides want a just peace, we just disagree on what is just.

Just out of curiosity you mean right to property regarding the west bank settlements, home demolitions and stuff or the 48 refugees property as well? because honestly I'm not sure I agree with the second part

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So, invading a certain land, forcing its inhabitants out of it, and establishing a country on that said land does not violate any sort of international law?
Well no.

Unless you think it's fair to retroactively apply international law, talking about can of worms

Applying modern moral standards retroactively isn't cool as well btw
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
Yeah, don't think anyone can or is trying to deny that, it wouldn't stop until we make a deal unfortunately, especially with the current right wing government. I think both sides want a just peace, we just disagree on what is just.

Just out of curiosity you mean right to property regarding the west bank settlements, home demolitions and stuff or the 48 refugees property as well? because honestly I'm not sure I agree with the second part

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Well no.

Unless you think it's fair to retroactively apply international law, talking about can of worms

Applying modern moral standards retroactively isn't cool as well btw
It isn't, and of course its not practical or realistic to suggest doing that anyway. But look at what Igor said, he said "nothing in Israel's formation was outside international law"
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,179
Well no.

Unless you think it's fair to retroactively apply international law, talking about can of worms

Applying modern moral standards retroactively isn't cool as well btw

Much of codified international law is based on customary international law. I'm sure most would agree that invading land and forcing the original inhabitants out would be a violation of customary international law too.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
It isn't, and of course its not practical or realistic to suggest doing that anyway. But look at what Igor said, he said "nothing in Israel's formation was outside international law"
Not sure I'm following, I agree with what Igor said, again strictly regarding the formation itself of the country. If international law is dictated by league of nation, UN whatever, and the same body recognize the formation as legal how can one claim it was not?

Sincerely I might just be missing your point

Much of codified international law is based on customary international law. I'm sure most would agree that invading land and forcing the original inhabitants out would be a violation of customary international law too.
There is customary law which is not clearly defined and then there's the written law, can anyone say what was the customary law regarding "invading land" was prior to 48 or today even? if it's unconditionally against it then almost every country in history is at fault

It's exactly the point I was making regarding applying moral standards retroactively. Costumery is moral based and therefore subject to constant change, especially since it's not written.

Also I believe customary law is region based but correct me if i'm wrong

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And if we are discussing laws, why both of you are using the term "invading" when it's not technically accurate? in this context at least where technicality is important to determine violation of law.

Not that it's a particular dissuasion I'm looking forward to get into but just had to say it. :D
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,541
Not sure I'm following, I agree with what Igor said, again strictly regarding the formation itself of the country. If international law is dictated by league of nation, UN whatever, and the same body recognize the formation as legal how can one claim it was not?
Yeah, shouldn't waste ones tiem discussing whether or not Israel in it's birth broke international law; rather discuss how they are breaking international law as we speak.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,541
This is the most boring and academic conflict in the world.

Yes, Israel is a bitch towards Gaza. But we have far more pressing issues. Migration and climate change, and the rest of the middle east.

Within a decade Saudi (sunni), Israel and Iran (Shia) will have engaged in War.

Europe and 'Murica are done. At least the populations are. Tiem for the middle east to handle its own business, and I mean this in both ways: we can't meddle anymore nor should we.

Our interference does no good in the long run.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-...rotest-west-bank-arson-murder-trial-1.6196907

Anywhere else in the world this mob would have gotten leveled and removed. Seems the more invested in religion people are the more likely they are to unlearn the only worthy lesson religions teach their followers. And what remains is garbage.
Anywhere beside Countries with free speech, reprehensible as it may be what would you charge them with and arrest them for? And few Idiotic and brainwashed kids barely constitute a "mob".They need to be sued in a civil court surly but it's not the job of the police to arrest them imo

Totally agree with the second part though

This is the most boring and academic conflict in the world.

Yes, Israel is a bitch towards Gaza. But we have far more pressing issues. Migration and climate change, and the rest of the middle east.

Within a decade Saudi (sunni), Israel and Iran (Shia) will have engaged in War.

Europe and 'Murica are done. At least the populations are. Tiem for the middle east to handle its own business, and I mean this in both ways: we can't meddle anymore nor should we.

Our interference does no good in the long run.
Worth a try. I definitely agree that outside influence so far has only complicated matters and was actually detrimental to stabilizing the region.

Agree with everything you said but not sure there will be a direct war between us and Iran ever, it would be a lose-lose situation. It serves both countries to play this game, Israel gets closer ties with surrounding countries opposing Iran and vice versa for them. Both governments benefit from home support while deflecting from the real issue, oppression and ruined economy in Iran case and the dead peace process and corruption in ours.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
The Palestinian cause was never an important one to the middle class Iranians. "Death to Palestine" is a new low, but there have been similar chants in the past with more or less the same message for the regime: don't give "our" money to "them". It has become much worse in the past couple of years because of the dire economic situation in the country. It's awful right now over there, the currency is losing value everyday (literally), jobs are gone, sanctions are back, corruption is at its highest, and people blame everything on the money spent in Syria and Palestine.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,519
Iranian Rial has lost 60% of its value since the beginning of the year. That is while the full effect of US leaving Iran deal is not there yet. I would not take those chants at their face value. People are understandably very frustrated.
 

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